| Author |
Message |
| ralphmerridew |
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject: 1 |
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I've seen diagramless fill-in puzzles (answers are given initially, but not the ordering).
Most of them had UK-style grids, but each answer also listed all the words it intersected.
One of them had a US style grid, but it started by giving all the E's. |
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| Scurra |
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:54 am Post subject: 0 |
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| Vagrant wrote: |
| Diagramless crosswords are fairly standard fare although I must admit never having seen one that uses a UK type grid. Is that the thing that makes it difficult? |
Whereas on this side of the "pond" I only come across them using UK type grids! (Until recently there were two monthly newstand books of diagramless puzzles using UK grids.) The first time I did a US one I was surprised at how easy it was (in comparison) because of all the extra checked letters...
The difficulty here is the clue ordering, not the grid. I didn't attempt it because the hooks (the marked spaces which had to be letters) didn't appear to be enough to place anything usefully. Most diagramless puzzles do at least have numbered clues in standard grid order; I can see why you thought this might make it too easy in this case given the tiny letter pool you were using (kudos for this by the way.) |
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| Vagrant |
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:24 am Post subject: -1 |
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| Suspence wrote: |
| Had this been a MPH-type quiz, I would've tried submitting that almost as soon as I recognized the alphabet limitation. |
What?!?!? And taken all the ... um ... 'fun' out of getting there? |
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| Vagrant |
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:20 am Post subject: -2 |
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| ralphmerridew wrote: |
| there appears to be a unique solution, but I'm not sure if anybody could find it without a computer search |
I'm interested in how you draw that conclusion rm? I'm not being facetious, i really am interested. Diagramless crosswords are fairly standard fare although I must admit never having seen one that uses a UK type grid. Is that the thing that makes it difficult? |
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| Suspence |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:15 pm Post subject: -3 |
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Actually, given the theme, the alphabet constraint, and the number of gray boxes, I had figured that TORMENTERS was the answer long ago.
Had this been a MPH-type quiz, I would've tried submitting that almost as soon as I recognized the alphabet limitation. |
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| ralphmerridew |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:08 pm Post subject: -4 |
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Well, assuming that the middle cell is empty, there appears to be a unique solution, but I'm not sure if anybody could find it without a computer search.
For those who don't want to go through the search: OMORE TRTSN |
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| Vagrant |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: -5 |
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This example shows two identical grids with different orientation
If I told you there was a letter in the square with a red circle you'd be able to work out which orientation was correct. |
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| Vagrant |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:50 pm Post subject: -6 |
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All four of the grids shown have 180 degree rotational symmetry i.e. if you rotate them by 180 degrees the grids are identical. None of them have mirror symmetry in any direction.
I thought this was the norm in most American crosswords too, It is in the ones I do. |
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| Suspence |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:40 pm Post subject: -7 |
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| Vagrant wrote: |
| When I say it has 180 degree symmetry, I mean rotational symmetry, not left/right, up/down or diagonal. The grey squares nullify ambiguity about orientation. |
Could you provide an example of what this means as well? I'm trying to understand, but I think an example would make it crystal clear. |
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| Vagrant |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:07 am Post subject: -8 |
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Diagrams may help explain all that better
 |
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| Vagrant |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:33 am Post subject: -9 |
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If anyone wants to try fitting those answers into the grid without help don't peek here - TESTOSTERONE goes across and starts in the second square down on the left hand side.
Also, for those unfamiliar with UK style cryptic crossword grids, no two consecutive letters either across or down are unchecked. i.e. at least every second letter in answers in both directions is checked, possibly more, but never less. |
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| novice |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:06 am Post subject: -10 |
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Three letters:
EMS
EON
MEN
ROT
Four letters:
MOON
MORE
NOSE
NOTE
OREO
OTTO
Six letters:
EMOTES
ENTREE
MENTOR
MOROSE
RESENT
SERMON
SNORER
TEETER
TREMOR
TSETSE
Nine letters:
METRONOME
MONOTREME
Twelve letters:
METEORSTORMS
TESTOSTERONE |
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| novice |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:02 am Post subject: -11 |
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| Vagrant wrote: |
And I'll take all the fun of discovery out of the last one ... One reason explanation why "sea lion" isn't "a lion" |
NOSE
Nice wordplay.  |
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| Vagrant |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:50 am Post subject: -12 |
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Confirm
EMS
MENTOR
OTTO
And I'll take all the fun of discovery out of the last one ... One reason explanation why "sea lion" isn't "a lion" |
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| novice |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:15 am Post subject: -13 |
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| Vagrant wrote: |
| Start for man or mite - this is just a bad clue that might have been ok in a normal crossword but doesn't work at all in this; possibly gettable through backsolving. Try 'German king' instead. |
OTTO |
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| novice |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:11 am Post subject: -14 |
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Three letters:
A long long time - EON
Bishops and the like - MEN
Often followed by 13, particularly on GL - ROT
Four letters:
Cookie - OREO
Further - MORE
It becomes new every month or so - MOON
Quaver, for example - NOTE
Six letters:
Gloomy - MOROSE
One who keeps you up - SNORER
Pulpit panegyric - SERMON
Quiver, for example - TREMOR
Repetitive insect - TSETSE
Resolved a lost letter dilemma - RESENT
Shows some feeling - EMOTES
What you eat before you eat - ENTREE
Wobble - TEETER
Nine letters:
Mammalian order - MONOTREME
Musician’s tool - METRONOME
Twelve letters:
Galactic hazards - METEOR STORMS
Hormone - TESTOSTERONE
Unsolved:
One reason why sea lion isn’t a lion
Something madam and minim have in common - EMS, MOM
Sponsor - MENTOR
Start for man or mite |
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| Vagrant |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:29 am Post subject: -15 |
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Confirm
TEETER
METEOR STORMS
MEN
ENTREE
MONOTREME
NOTE
TREMOR
ROT
SNORER
MORE (I know that wasn't actually the guess but I'll give it anyway)
The shortest answers used in the crossword are three letters.
For the remaining unsolved clues
One reason why sea lion isn't a lion - this is not a definition of the answer; in a cryptic clue it would be the wordplay part. I left it in because I liked it. Consider why it's 'sea lion' and not 'sealion'.
Something madam and minim have in common - see hidden text in post 12.
Sponsor - this is a straight definition; I'm surprised it's causing any problem.
Start for man or mite - this is just a bad clue that might have been ok in a normal crossword but doesn't work at all in this; possibly gettable through backsolving. Try 'German king' instead. |
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| Suspence |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:33 am Post subject: -16 |
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| One who keeps you up - SNORER |
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| ralphmerridew |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:55 am Post subject: -17 |
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I can see one potential place to start:
- Count the number of words of each length.
- If we're really lucky, there will be two lengths that have an odd number of words. In that case, one word of each length goes through the center cell.
Also, there are presently two 12-letter answers (TESTOSTERONE and METEORSTORM). If there aren't any more 12-letter answers, there will be only 48 ways to place those words. (24 if you place them first and ignore whether they're across or down until the end.) |
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| Zag |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:35 am Post subject: -18 |
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Ok, I'll say it.
This puzzle is too hard!!
Even once you catch on to the trick of the limited letter selection, which does help qualify a lot of your answers, that same limitation means that putting them on to the board is going to be a brutal challenge. You don't get to start with the only two words that have a J in order to figure out a place to stand.
Of course, with this crowd, it'll get solved. By "too hard" I meant "way too hard for me."  |
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| novice |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:21 am Post subject: -19 |
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| Suspence wrote: |
| N EBG-13 VF N FVZCYR PNRFNE-PLCURE RAPELCGVBA GUNG ERCYNPRF RNPU RATYVFU YRGGRE JVGU GUR BAR GUVEGRRA CYNPRF NURNQ BS VG VA GUR NYCUNORG |
GUNAXF, V TRG VG ABJ.
 |
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| Suspence |
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:06 am Post subject: -20 |
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| N EBG-13 VF N FVZCYR PNRFNE-PLCURE RAPELCGVBA GUNG ERCYNPRF RNPU RATYVFU YRGGRE JVGU GUR BAR GUVEGRRA CYNPRF NURNQ BS VG VA GUR NYCUNORG |
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| novice |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:46 pm Post subject: -21 |
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| What's the reference, Thok? |
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| Thok* |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:55 pm Post subject: -22 |
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Often followed by 13, particularly on GL
I was expecting this to be ROT even before we knew about the limited alphabet. Now I'm sure of it. |
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| Suspence |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:39 pm Post subject: -23 |
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| Possibility for Quiver - TREMOR |
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| Gomez |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:32 pm Post subject: -24 |
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Quaver, for example - Note
Mammalian order - Monotreme(s)? |
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| Suspence |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject: -25 |
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This could help
Confirmed in bold:
A long long time - EON
Bishops and the like - MEN
Cookie - OREO
Further - MORE REMOTE / REMOTER
Galactic hazards - METEOR STORMS
Gloomy - MOROSE
Hormone - TESTOSTERONE
It becomes new every month or so - MOON
Mammalian order - MONOTREMES
Musician’s tool - METRONOME
Often followed by 13, particularly on GL
One reason why sea lion isn’t a lion
One who keeps you up
Pulpit panegyric - SERMON
Quaver, for example
Quiver, for example
Repetitive insect - TSETSE
Resolved a lost letter dilemma - RESENT
Shows some feeling - EMOTES
Something madam and minim have in common - M'S
Sponsor - SETTER
Start for man or mite
What you eat before you eat - ENTREE
Wobble - TEETER |
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| novice |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:23 pm Post subject: -26 |
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| Suspence wrote: |
| Specifically, MONSTER. |
Yeah, nice breakthrough Suspence! That makes things a lot easier.
Sponsor = SETTER, perhaps? |
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| Suspence |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:17 pm Post subject: -27 |
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| Specifically, MONSTER. |
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| novice |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:16 pm Post subject: -28 |
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So I suppose the limited alphabet is the commonality we're supposed to spot?
EDIT: And the alphabet is MONSTER, of course. |
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| Suspence |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: -29 |
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Maybe M'S instead of MM?
TEETER instead of TOTTER?
Maybe the 2 word answer is METEOR STORMS?
Just MEN for bishops?
What you eat before you eat - Possibly ENTREE, though it's not really used that way anymore. |
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| Vagrant |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: -30 |
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Confirm
OREO
MOROSE
TESTOSTERONE
METRONOME
and almost right
MM spell it
CHESSMEN
METEORS this will be the 2 word answer
TOTTER no, the other one |
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| Suspence |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:09 pm Post subject: -31 |
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Confirmed in bold:
A long long time - EON
Bishops and the like
Cookie - OREO
Further
Galactic hazards - METEORS
Gloomy - MOROSE
Hormone - TESTOSTERONE
It becomes new every month or so - MOON
Mammalian order
Musician’s tool - METRONOME
Often followed by 13, particularly on GL
One reason why sea lion isn’t a lion
One who keeps you up
Pulpit panegyric - SERMON
Quaver, for example
Quiver, for example
Repetitive insect - TSETSE
Resolved a lost letter dilemma - RESENT
Shows some feeling - EMOTES
Something madam and minim have in common
Sponsor
Start for man or mite
What you eat before you eat
Wobble - TOTTER
Also, DUST isn't right? It was so perfect! |
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| Vagrant |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:54 pm Post subject: -32 |
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I'll confirm some answers
EON
MOON
SERMON
TSETSE
RESENT
EMOTES
EON
Two others are quite close; at least on the right track.
This may be enough to work out the 'commonality' which will make clues like Hormone much less troublesome. |
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| Suspence |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:07 pm Post subject: -33 |
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A long long time - EON
Bishops and the like - CLERGY or maybe CHESSMEN
Hormone - Generically, CHEMICAL. If a specific one, there are tons. |
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| Jack_Ian |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: -34 |
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Galactic hazards - BLACK HOLES?
Mammalian order - see here for list. |
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| Suspence |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:24 pm Post subject: -35 |
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We should have enough to get started:
A long long time
Bishops and the like
Cookie
Further
Galactic hazards
Gloomy
Hormone
It becomes new every month or so - MOON
Mammalian order
Musician’s tool - INSTRUMENT
Often followed by 13, particularly on GL
One reason why sea lion isn’t a lion
One who keeps you up
Pulpit panegyric - SERMON
Quaver, for example
Quiver, for example
Repetitive insect - TSETSE
Resolved a lost letter dilemma - RESENT?
Shows some feeling - EMOTES
Something madam and minim have in common - MM, PALINDROME
Sponsor
Start for man or mite - DUST
What you eat before you eat - APPETIZER?
Wobble |
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| Vagrant |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:14 am Post subject: -36 |
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| Vagrant wrote: |
| Yes, the grey squares will nullify the ambiguity. |
To clarify, just in case it's not understood: When I say it has 180 degree symmetry, I mean rotational symmetry, not left/right, up/down or diagonal. The grey squares nullify ambiguity about orientation. |
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| Vagrant |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:25 am Post subject: -37 |
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I'll just add that the correct answers to the clues share a commonality which would be apparent if you looked in the right place but should become apparent in due course anyway. I'd never have made the clues so abstract otherwise - some of the clues are not literal definitions of the answers and may only be solveable through backsolving.
I'll include word lengths tomorrow if nobody takes a stab before then.
I should also add that I don't personally think this is a good puzzle in it's current form and I don't think I could solve it. I've presented it like this because I'm interested in seeing what the GL can do with it after seeing the demolition job you did on the puzzles in the MS Puzzle Hunt. |
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| referee |
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:20 am Post subject: -38 |
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| The dark squares also have 180º symmetry, so no need to check for rotations, I guess. |
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