| Author |
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| Buzzsaw |
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:09 pm Post subject: 1 |
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| itisally wrote: |
..<snip>..
A new generation of solvers... |
Did someone mention Solver!?
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| itisally |
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:40 am Post subject: 0 |
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| The Potter wrote: |
| It is a good thing that I wasn't here in 1999. I would have been 13! |
This is funny to me because I know we have users who are as young as 15 right now. A new generation of solvers and young people who are looking for something more meaningful and brain stimulating on the internet. It can be a good thing. |
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| The Potter |
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:24 am Post subject: -1 |
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It is a good thing that I wasn't here in 1999. I would have been 13! Also, I don't know if I deleted posts out of anger at the start of August. If I did, I am sorry. Also fortunately (I think Zag) spent the time to mop these beautiful marbled floor of black and white.
extro-- you are someone who is interesting to me. What sorts of projects are you exploring these days? Would you be willing to open a topic about something that interests you so that I could starting thinking about something useful? |
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| extropalopakettle |
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:02 pm Post subject: -2 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| extro-- The Grey Labyrinth is a puzzle community. People here come here to enjoy puzzles because they are smart people. |
BTW, I've been participating here since 1999, maybe earlier. I'm a little more familiar with the history than you are. |
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| extropalopakettle |
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 4:02 pm Post subject: -3 |
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| Courk wrote: |
| Hmm, I'm assuming I know what this discussion is about without having read all of it to be sure. |
The original title was "Science as a religion", and we've been admonished to stay on topic here. So that would ostensibly be what the discussion is about.
Who deleted my posts and why? Is this part of some new way on the GL? |
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| Courk |
Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:24 am Post subject: -4 |
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I don't think the GL got hostile. I do think we stopped the forum from showing up in Google while also having a decrease in the turnover rate of main page puzzles. Anyone coming to the site and seeing it hadn't been updated in a year would probably not think it was an active site.
Hmm, I'm assuming I know what this discussion is about without having read all of it to be sure. I'll stop here and post this in case it's relevant. If it's not, ignore the ramblings of the person past her bedtime. |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:42 pm Post subject: -5 |
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extro-- The Grey Labyrinth is a puzzle community. People here come here to enjoy puzzles because they are smart people.
Why did all of us come here?
Because we liked puzzled.
Why did we stay?
Because it was once a friendly community. Now it is hostile. We, as a community, have let too many of our members die. You should enjoy your time on the Grey Labyrinth.
And yes, I should reread the Phantom Tollbooth. I know. But with a little effort, this thread will be better. I am willing to put in a little sweat and brainpower to make it happen. And all the copies seem to be forever checked out. |
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| Thok |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:34 pm Post subject: -6 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| All I remember is that the protagonist goes on an impossible quest. |
You should reread the Phantom Tollbooth. It would probably be a more enjoyable use of your time then this thread. |
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| extropalopakettle |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:34 am Post subject: -7 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| Are you trying to stay on-topic? All I see are posts questioning my non-existent motive. |
I've been trying to determine what the topic is, or if there really is one. I don't think I'm alone in thinking there isn't one. I've been taking guesses, but can't come up with anything that might make sense, and I suspect the "it's too soon" thing is a crock, but I'll be pleased to be shown I was wrong.
| MatthewV wrote: |
| Any topic can resort to pettiness if it isn't allowed to be changed. You keep bringing back the topic too soon. |
Why is it too soon to ask what the connection is between the dairy thing and "science as a religion"? What are we waiting for?
| MatthewV wrote: |
| Now, people like myself can remember the original topic, and try to make progress instead of pettiness. |
Pettiness? It's a simple question: What's the connection to science as a religion? You keep shoveling the cryptic mysterioso "have to take this real sloooooow because it's soooo deep" crapola, seemingly oblivious to the fact that everyone can see it's baloney.
| MatthewV wrote: |
| Observational knowledge. I know that, with 99% certainty, you will look up that term if and only if you actually care. |
More cryptic crap gussied up with a pompous tone. I looked it up, and as expected, doing so doesn't help with much but taking wild stabs at what, if anything, you're trying to say. It's sad really. |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:42 am Post subject: -8 |
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| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| I must not understand the genius at work here. |
Observational knowledge. I know that, with 99% certainty, you will look up that term if and only if you actually care. <snip> |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:13 am Post subject: -9 |
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| Then come play my chess game over in visitor games. |
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| Jedo the Jedi |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:10 am Post subject: -10 |
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| I must not understand the genius at work here. |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:04 am Post subject: -11 |
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Posts about dogma and new ideas that came entirely from the GL inspired me. In order for this area to be different from Off Topic, the rules needed to be different.
Any topic can resort to pettiness if it isn't allowed to be changed. You keep bringing back the topic too soon. So the topic must change when people feel you are off topic.
Now, people like myself can remember the original topic, and try to make progress instead of pettiness.
And if that happens, the GL will continue to grow in ways the rest of the internet hasn't. Which is good. |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:55 am Post subject: -12 |
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Are you trying to stay on-topic? All I see are posts questioning my non-existent motive.
----
Extro, the link you provided is much better then the one I did. Here is the simple reason why-- "The goal is and has always been optimal health and well-being, not sticking to dogmas just for the sake of being righteous."
This post has given me something to think about-- how is a modified paleolithic diet related to religion/science/life? |
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| extropalopakettle |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:48 am Post subject: -13 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
It is about The Phantom Tollbooth.
Instead of just leaving this as a cryptic answer that extro won't like, I will explain. |
So were it not for me, you'd be content to post cryptic sequences of words that convey nothing to anyone?
| MatthewV wrote: |
| So in many ways this topic and Serious Discussions do not have any point. |
I'm quite certain I repeatedly expressed wonder about what the point was, I think reasonably assuming there was one. Why wait until now to tell me?
And then shouldn't we perhaps call this section "Pointless Discussions"? Or "Serious Pointless Discussions"? (I think "serious" and "pointless" generally evoke opposite images).
| MatthewV wrote: |
| (jadesmar seems to understand) |
I thought what he said was fairly close to what I said earlier:
| MatthewV wrote: |
| extropalopakettle wrote: |
The best I can figure is you're shooting for equating some silly caricature of science with religion, with "science experts" in lab coats being some sort of priesthood whose word we, the "believers", all accept on faith. That's not science, if that's where you're going.
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Science isn't like this and no religion is like this either. What is your point? |
Then you ask what's my point? Why would I have one? This is Serious (Pointless) Discussions. |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:58 am Post subject: -14 |
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It is about The Phantom Tollbooth.
Instead of just leaving this as a cryptic answer that extro won't like, I will explain.
I have never read the Phantom Tollbooth. It was read aloud to me when I was about 3. Or somewhere in that age range you remember only a few fragments and really remember from the pictures you looked at later or were told.
All I remember is that the protagonist goes on an impossible quest. He completes it only because he never knew it was impossible.
So in many ways this topic and Serious Discussions do not have any point.
But I wouldn't have liked the ending of the Phantom Tollbooth if the beginning and middle weren't also good. So the point isn't to say "Aha! You are wrong!" but to enjoy talking with people you have come to know and trust.
(jadesmar seems to understand) |
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| jadesmar |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:23 am Post subject: -15 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
I know MatthewV doesn't want to reveal it yet, but does anyone else want to speculate on how this might eventually tie in to "Science as a religion"? I really haven't progressed beyond my first post in this topic:
| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| I don't get what the initial post has to do with the title "science as religion". What is this thread about? |
Any ideas? |
My guess is that he was going for a 'according to the "gospel truth" that is science.. "this result". But in my case "opposite result".'
That's a really terrible discussion though, so I probably wouldn't want any part in that. |
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| extropalopakettle |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:52 am Post subject: -16 |
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I know MatthewV doesn't want to reveal it yet, but does anyone else want to speculate on how this might eventually tie in to "Science as a religion"? I really haven't progressed beyond my first post in this topic:
| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| I don't get what the initial post has to do with the title "science as religion". What is this thread about? |
Any ideas? |
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| extropalopakettle |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:25 am Post subject: -17 |
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From http://paleodietlifestyle.com/fatty-meat-potatoes-dairy-and-paleo-2-0/
| Quote: |
Paleo and dairy
Even though this point has been discussed before on this website, many people are dead stuck in believing that any dairy from any source is inherently bad and that it should be avoided at all cost.
The main undesirable element in milk and the sugar lactose, but many dairy sources contain very little to no lactose at all. Aged cheeses, properly fermented yogurt, butter, clarified butter and heavy cream are good examples. In addition to that, although lactose is not properly digested by most people, raw milk still contain the lactase enzymes that help break it down and should be well tolerated.
The second undesirable element in dairy is the protein casein. Some people seem to have issues with that protein present in milk. Here again, butter and heavy cream are two choices that contain extremely low amount of the protein casein. Also, many people who can’t tolerate cow’s milk end up doing just fine with dairy from other sources like sheep or goats, mainly because their milk contains a different form of the casein protein. Finally, some react to casein as a cross-reaction linked to wheat consumption. This means that they no longer have a problem with casein once their body is healed from the damages of wheat and other gluten-containing grains.
Not many traditional cultures have been noted for consuming milk, but many have been noted for consuming high amounts of dairy fat or fermented dairy of some kind. Those cultures were most often really healthy and thriving.
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| extropalopakettle |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:13 am Post subject: -18 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
And you quoted the conclusions not the results. Shame on you.  |
I posted a link, asshat. The only shame I see is in your furious shoveling of bullshit as if you have a point behind it somewhere. Maybe ... just maybe ... you have something better than "grilled cheesus" to tie this dairy thing to science and religion (tried to help you out there), but I'll bet you sure as hell don't have a reason to be so obtuse about it.
Would it help you if we all just assumed for the sake of argument that dairy is bad, Dr. Hyman is right? Can we proceed from there? Or is that where it ends? Is that the entire point? Was the connection to "science as religion" just an inchoate rambling induced by too much time spent in an igloo full of pot smoke? |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:06 am Post subject: -19 |
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| jadesmar wrote: |
| The symptoms of lactose intolerance would sit in the digestive tract, e.g. diarrhoea, stomach ache, flatulance etc. I fail to see how a stuffy nose fits this category. |
There is so much we don't understand...being able to breath through my nose is very nice. I hadn't been able to do that for basically as long as I can remember. It took about two weeks of actually avoiding milk products to see the results and about a month to draw conclusions.
Now I can slowly experiment in trying the various cheeses I once loved. Because cheese is delicious but potentially harmful to my health.
(Health + correct indulgences) > (No health + random indulgences) |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:37 am Post subject: -20 |
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I love your summary Thok. Except maybe it is the lack of milk that makes me cranky
I would like to add #7: you cannot know what milk does or doesn't do for yourself unless you give it up entirely for a little while. About two weeks to a month (depending on the person ) |
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| jadesmar |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:35 am Post subject: -21 |
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The symptoms of lactose intolerance would sit in the digestive tract, e.g. diarrhoea, stomach ache, flatulance etc. I fail to see how a stuffy nose fits this category.
Maybe this is being confused with an allergy to cheese or milk or something. But, in that case, it would probably not be genetic, nor something that 75% of the worlds population would experience. |
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| Thok |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:30 am Post subject: -22 |
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What I get from this thread, with respect to milk:
1. Milk is good for children.
2. Milk has benefits to older people (especially older women), but also has potentially significant side effects.
3. There are other sources for the nutrition you get from milk.
4. Whether you should continue to drink milk after childhood depends significantly on whether your genetic background will allow you to handle the lactose.
5. Milk, cheese, and yogurt are delicious. So are other foods.
6. Milk makes MatthewV cranky and Jadesmar happy. |
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| jadesmar |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:20 am Post subject: -23 |
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Anyhow,
Since milk is a source of calcium and vitamin D and both contribute to bone density, as shown by Thok... I'd say that Yoda is telling the truth |
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| jadesmar |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:18 am Post subject: -24 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
And from my own experience.
When I stopped using milk products, I started eating more peanut butter and nuts. They are an excellent source of everything milk has without the problems that milk has. |
Peanut butter and nuts are also yum.
I don't have problems with milk though, so... also yum.  |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:17 am Post subject: -25 |
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And from my own experience.
When I stopped using milk products, I started eating more peanut butter and nuts. They are an excellent source of everything milk has without the problems that milk has. |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:14 am Post subject: -26 |
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And you quoted the conclusions not the results. Shame on you.
| Quote: |
Results
Consuming ≥ 2 servings/day of dairy (versus less) was associated with significantly higher mean BMC and BA. Higher intakes of meats/other proteins (≥ 4 servings per/day) were also associated with higher mean BMC and BA values. Children with higher intakes of both dairy and meats/other proteins had the highest adjusted BMC (3090.1 g), and children consuming less of each had the lowest BMC (2740.2 g). |
Was there a group with high intake of proteins without dairy? Nope! (or none that I saw) |
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| jadesmar |
Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:06 am Post subject: -27 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| Milk is fortified with Vitamin D. If I marketed a product of sunlight with Vitamin D, would you buy it? (this product is called being outside and also comes with the benefit of exercise) |
Yes, I would buy that, if I didn't already get all the Vitamin D that I needed from biking 40km and drinking 500 ml of milk daily.
Chocolate milk is yum, and a good protein supplement for after a 20 km ride. |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:44 pm Post subject: -28 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| MatthewV wrote: |
| So when you go to www.sciencedirect.com (or scholar.google.com) and do a search for something like "milk bone density" I predict you will find nothing conclusive in either direction. |
No mention of "child". |
The TITLE of the article you clicked on was about children who drank milk. It showed results that drinking milk as a child could be good for you.
So the question is-- are you a child?
If the answer is no (and I know it is) then that article is not about you.
(too much simu-posting. I'll be back later) |
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| extropalopakettle |
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:44 pm Post subject: -29 |
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| Cheese is a good source of complete protein. I like cream in my coffee, cheese on my pizza. |
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| extropalopakettle |
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:41 pm Post subject: -30 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| The author of this asks you to question the bolded part. |
| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| The world is full of entities competing to sway people one way or the other, especially about what they consume, and this often involves creating the appearance of unbiased science supporting some conclusion. |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:41 pm Post subject: -31 |
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| jadesmar wrote: |
| Thok wrote: |
| MatthewV wrote: |
| Look around-- try to find a published paper that confirms the claims of this advertisement: |
Here
Now granted, I used calcium rather than milk for my search, but that's because I already knew that most of milk's direct benefit to bones is from calcium and this is fairly common knowledge. If you want to try an alternative source of calcium because you are lactose intolerant, go ahead. |
There is evidence that Vitamin D contributes to bone density. And that milk is a great source of Vitamin D :) |
Milk is fortified with Vitamin D. If I marketed a product of sunlight with Vitamin D, would you buy it? (this product is called being outside and also comes with the benefit of exercise) |
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| extropalopakettle |
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:39 pm Post subject: -32 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| So when you go to www.sciencedirect.com (or scholar.google.com) and do a search for something like "milk bone density" I predict you will find nothing conclusive in either direction. |
No mention of "child". |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:38 pm Post subject: -33 |
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| Thok wrote: |
| MatthewV wrote: |
| Look around-- try to find a published paper that confirms the claims of this advertisement: |
Here
Now granted, I used calcium rather than milk for my search, but that's because I already knew that most of milk's direct benefit to bones is from calcium and this is fairly common knowledge. If you want to try an alternative source of calcium because you are lactose intolerant, go ahead. |
The author of this asks you to question the bolded part. |
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| MatthewV |
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:35 pm Post subject: -34 |
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I didn't know that you were still a child. That article is titled "Effects of Average Childhood Dairy Intake on Adolescent Bone Health". Is it horribly mislabeled? |
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| jadesmar |
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:34 pm Post subject: -35 |
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| Thok wrote: |
| jadesmar wrote: |
There is evidence that Vitamin D contributes to bone density. And that milk is a great source of Vitamin D  |
To be fair, the link I posted (which is literally just a Google search for "calcium bone benefits") also lists lots of papers discussing Vitamin D and bone density as well.
And there are other sources of Vitamin D than milk. MatthewV may decide to each more fish, drink more orange juice fortified with vitamin D, or spend more time in the sun. |
I don't know that orange juice would help as much. Vitamin D is fat soluble so needs fat for the delivery. Perhaps orange juice with bacon.
Mmm.. that sounds good... I'm going to get orange juice and bacon now. |
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| extropalopakettle |
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| Thok |
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:18 pm Post subject: -37 |
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| jadesmar wrote: |
There is evidence that Vitamin D contributes to bone density. And that milk is a great source of Vitamin D  |
To be fair, the link I posted (which is literally just a Google search for "calcium bone benefits") also lists lots of papers discussing Vitamin D and bone density as well.
And there are other sources of Vitamin D than milk. MatthewV may decide to each more fish, drink more orange juice fortified with vitamin D, or spend more time in the sun. |
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| jadesmar |
Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:56 pm Post subject: -38 |
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| Thok wrote: |
| MatthewV wrote: |
| Look around-- try to find a published paper that confirms the claims of this advertisement: |
Here
Now granted, I used calcium rather than milk for my search, but that's because I already knew that most of milk's direct benefit to bones is from calcium and this is fairly common knowledge. If you want to try an alternative source of calcium because you are lactose intolerant, go ahead. |
There is evidence that Vitamin D contributes to bone density. And that milk is a great source of Vitamin D  |
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