New Mafia System - vote now!

[Macros]

The Deal - no experience? mini game is the limit.
Modded before? dont care, mini game is the limit.
Been confirmed as experienced by the tribunal? congrat, you can mod what you want.

Mini Games - definite list and order will depend on old list as well
Quercitron
CyberDork
Kazooisch
TANSTAAFL


Experienced mods -
Mith
DP
Antrax
Samadhi

GAMES

1. mith(finished, mafia wins)
   
2. mith(finished, mafia wins)
   
3. firemeboy(finished, mafia wins)
   
4. dethwing(finished, town wins)
   
5. James(finished, mafia wins)
   
6. firemeboy(finished, mafia wins)
   
7. mith(finished, town wins)
   
8. James(finished, town wins)
   
9. Dragon Phoenix(finished, town wins)
   
10. dethwing(finished, tie between town and monsters)(D&D)
    
11. groza(finished, tie between town and guerillas)
    
12. Dread Pirate Westley(finished, town wins)
    
13. mith(finished, town wins)
    
14. BBB(ended, tie)
    
15. Dragon Phoenix(finished, town wins)
    
16. Antrax(finished, mafia wins)
    
17. mith(finished, town wins)
    
18. James(finished, town wins)
    
19. The Master(finished, dark side wins)(Star Wars)
    
20. tv snake (finished, mafia(mithrandir) wins)(Sole Survivor)
    
21. Samadhi(finished, town wins)
    
22. JDTAY(finished, mafia wins)
    
23. Courk(finished, Alfredo mafia wins)
    
24. Dragon Phoenix(finished, mafia wins)
    
25. mith(finished, Sparhawk and OcularGold win)
    
26. groza(finished, tyconians win)
    
27. Soothsayer(finished, town wins)
    
28. Samadhi(finished, Lord Foul wins)(Covenant)
    
29. Propaganda Minister and Ryoushi(finished, communist town wins)(Russian)
    
30. Lepton(finished, veggies win)(VeggieTales)
    
31. Dragon Phoenix(finished, town wins)
    
32. mith(finished, town wins)(Neighborhood Mafia)
    
33. dethwing(finished, goblins win)(D&D)
    
34. Lilifreid(finished, evil pokemon win)(Pokemon)
    
35. A- mith(finished, mafia wins)(No Discussion)
    B- Dragon Phoenix(finished, Ligurian satan worshippers win)(No Discussion)
    
36. Antrax(finished, town wins)(Realtime)
    
37. Dragon Phoenix(finished, assassins win)(Discworld)
    
38. PuzzleProdigy(finished, town wins)
    
39. Acer(finished, town wins)
    
40. mith(finished,town wins) (invitational)
    
41. dethwing(finished, town wins)(Electoral)
    
42. mith(finished, mafia win)(Wheel of Time)
    
43. Samadhi(finished, won by Mith and Mole)(Bladerunner)
    
44. L'layne(finished , town wins)(Verbose)
    
45. mole(finished, Corleone mafia wins)
    
46. querciton(finished, draw)(querciton took over from El Blobbo)("Blind")
    
47. Fezzik(finished, town wins)(Magic:TG)
    
48. mole(finished, tie between mafia and Dracula)
    
49. The Master(finmished, dark side wins)(Star Wars)
    
50. mith (running, medium)(Salem Witches)
    
51. Handsome Dan, (finished, result?)(Simpsons)
    
52. S00thsayer, (finished, town wins)(Harry Potter)
    
53. Wordcross, (finished, town wins)(Fantasy)
    
54. Macros, (finished, tie: Town and Gollum)(The Hobbit)
    
55. Macros, (running, large)(Lord of the Rings)
    
56. Ferris, (running, small)(Greifswald)
    
57. Dragon Pheonix, (running, medium)(Rock and Pop)
    
58. PuzzleProdigy, (running, small)
    
59. Degenerate, (sign up, small)
    
60. Courk, (sign up, medium)(football)
    

Added by DP:
The main idea is that if you really want to moderate a mafia game, you should do so on a small scale where the effects of bad moderation are less painful, and which allows the quicker resolution of the ridiculously waiting list.

Larger games are still possible, but then an experienced mod will take control of your idea, to ensure [1] a balanced game [2] a smooth running. You can still co-mod of course.

For the time being, an experienced panel of four will decide who are the mods who can be trusted based on their track record to handle a game smoothly (i.e. 'experienced mods'). New mods can be added to this list after we have seen them in action.




[This message has been edited by Dragon Phoenix (edited 11-21-2002 09:35 AM).]

[TANSTAAFL]

I thought the list for the minigames would follow the order we had originally signed up to mod small games? Was I mistaken?

[Macros]

no
i just put the names down from memory
im organizing now

[TANSTAAFL]

sorry can you tell I don't have much to do at work today

[Degenerate]

Ummm...my maf is well past the sign-up stage. It's been nearly 3 weeks.

[jadesmar]

Can we please have some explanation on who/what the tribunal are.

[Neo]

Guess I'll throw myself in front of the tribunal now, before I forget and have to rush when GL Mafia comes around.

[jadesmar]

Put me on the list please..

[jadesmar]

Oh, and mini-games is the limit.. is that 20 person on GL?

[Neo]

Or not since I just read the other thread

[Neo]

So umm....not to sound dense, but where's the Newbie Game list? Or do those not exist anymore?

[Macros]

the tribunal was listed in the other thread, forgot to list here (they havent all confirmed thier presence, but ant and dp have, mith will, samadhi is considering r soemthing)
the Tribunal is DP, mith, Ant and Samadhi (hopefully)
a mini game is 12 players,
the list is slightly out of date, we're working on resetting it.

[Macros]

ok, i suppose i owe apologies to some people for my abruptness in making the change. but it needed doing, so i did it.
well, there, thats my apolog,y any other rants/complaints, e-mail me, or aim me if you see me. go crazy, shout scream, swear, i dont care. i'll respond calmly and cooly, and explain how it works, and why it works.

[jadesmar]

Ok, I can sign up for 12 player minigames on mafiascum. Please ignore my request for a game.

[jeep]

Is this the new mod list? If so, then I think this is a huge mistake. Everyone on the old list should be 'grandfathered' in for the game they signed up to mod. If they are willing to back out, then great, otherwise, they should stay on.

I approve of the system, with the possible caveat that the tribunal should consist of all approved mods.

-JEEP

[Amb]

All I can say is BAH! This system disadvantages me, who has already written Chess mafia, and had it all ready to go along with experienced mods okaying the game balance....

I cant think of anything more fun than modding, and I wanted a serious go at it....

However putting pride aside, Im happy to mod a few small games to prove I can do it....

[Dragon Phoenix]

[Dragon Phoenix]

By the way, Amb:

quote:

---

Medium Games 20 - 30 (at least one GL modded game, without any major hitches)


The Cheshire Man
Lilifreid
Acer
JDTAY
Samadhi
L'lanmal
mith
Soothsayer (star trek)
Fezzik (X-Men)
amb (Chess)
Dark + Antrax (SSMB)

---

You do realise that according to the old waiting list you probably would have to wait one and a half years to run Chess mafia?

[Soothsayer]

I guess I will put myself up for the tribunal then

[Dragon Phoenix]

Strict modding: 2 players die a week.
Non-strict modding: 2 players die in 2 weeks.

One game will last on average (say down to 4 survivors)

12: 4-8 weeks
20: 8-16 weeks
30: 13-26 weeks

Player pool – say max 50, some one at a time, some more. Say 2 games pp on average. Effective player pool 100. Having 3 20-player games in parallel and 2 medium/large games is therefore about the maximum you go (and practice shows this is already a stretch).

Per year, we can run 10 20pp games and 4 30pp games with ineffective modding. Effective modding can double that.

Waiting list for mods: 14 ‘small’, 18 ‘medium/large’. You see the problem?

[jeep]

I think that the benefits of this system are definitely there. It's just that, as you say, people put a lot of effort into setting up their games. Anyone on the old list should not be punished for following the rules at the time. I'm not on the list, so I have nothing personal to gain from this, and it my position may be slightly detrimental to the game, but I think it is the most fair option.

We should encourage inexperienced mods to bow out or 'co-mod' the game with an experienced mod, but we shouldn't just strike them from the list.

-JEEP

[Polotet]

I'm curious: will games from mafiascum count towards confirmation? Do you have to have modded any games on GL to be confirmed? (Note: I'm just wondering, not asking for confirmation or anything. Oh, and while I'm here, everyone sign up for Discworld Mafia on Mafiascum! Right now!)

[This message has been edited by Polotet (edited 11-15-2002 05:18 PM).]

[Termital]

[blatant flame]
What? Samadhi on the tribunal list? Doen't he trust the market to pick its own preffered mods and mafias but rather tries to enforce commie, totalitarian, top-down schemes? Centralised command over the people's choice? His true colors are now revealed.
[/blatant flame]

Now seriously, I have no interest in modding mafia, but it just seems that after all the trouble and patience, the people on the old list have been shown the door because somebody got tired of looking at it. And maybe I'm just being dense, but just how does co-modding help, other than your peace of mind? Doesn't it double the administrative burden by having every post and list oked by two people(especially if one plays the teacher role)? It may provide shorter response times on thread, but these are rarely called for. And how would one get an in-short-supply-experienced-mod to bother fathering all these rookies?

I'd suggest that said "tribunal" morhs into an advice board for mods, and that an emergency recovery mod list be created, for those times when the mod can't help but fail the players.(Say during his moving to a new house days).

If this list is neccessary, (and I prefer common understanding to this scheme), then the conditions should be loosened up. As it is, it smells of current (mafia and site) mods protecting their turf by putting an undue strain of difficult conditions on the rest. This may or may not be the case, but that's a definite impression. And while you may have valid reasons to constrain Mafia numbers (DP's supply and demand analysis), don't patronize people by claiming they can't handle it. Most Glers are both dedicated to the site and smart enough.They certainly can. And it can lead to a cyclical argument as the experience giving-system nearly excludes the inexperienced. Knowing better, I won't use the c word.

And now you have a mutiny- an unauthorised mafia game signup is currently going on. What will you do about it? Kill the thread? Let it spawn more such unauthorized games? According to this scheme, this hopeful mod had more of a chance winning the lotto than starting a mafia in the next year, even though he's both a GL regular and has successfully hosted other sorts of games before.

Btw, Degenerate's mafia is going along just fine. I'm about to be lynched So please alter the listing to "running just dandy".

Ok, was I annoying enough?

[Amb]

Im not very happy with the changes...

but I still want to mod... Put my name down please....

[Cyberdork]

I have a few questions and observations, just briefly. First, the mod list for short games is short right now, but I have a feeling that it's going to fill up quickly. I don't know about many other people but the games that I set up on here I enjoy running by myself because it's something that I personaly thought up, and it's something that I personaly want to see do well. I want to set up the surprises and twists for everyone and I want people to know that I tried my best to run the games well. That being said I wouldn't want anyone to mod one of my ideas, for fear of that person deciding to take my idea and twisting it because for all intents and purposes, that person would be modding the game. Plus with someone "co-modding" I don't really see the point in me even participating in any way shape or form with my game. Now my general feeling is that we come up with some basic rules that everyone agrees to and these rules are enforced by a panel of mods. For example, if you have a mafia thread that has a night over two days, then a warning is imposed on the players, another instance and the game is closed due to lack of interest. I think that all would agree to something like that being a fair and reasonable rule.

If you are modding a game and something happens where you can't mod it as well as you should (like my games now for example until I get my d*** computer fixed, which will be sometime this weekend for those in my games) then you can get one of the mafia mods to mod for you during the pause. This way the game continues without problem or delay. I really enjoy playing mafia in the chat rooms because it's easy to stay involved, the mafia here on the thread lags so much that it is impossible to get through. Also, just another thought, do we really need games involving a great deal more people than around 20 or 25? It seems to me that when you have games with numbers that big the first few days are nothing but random kills anyway to cut the numbers down to something reasonable. If we have games with smaller groups of people more games can be played and the delays will be shorter I am sure. Anyway, these are my thoughts on the matter, I don't want to start up trouble or anything, just putting in my two cents.

[Antrax]

[Amb]

Well I want in on the small list so I can prove myself. I agree with Cyberdork, and I really want to mod on my own - but I also have had offers from Quercitron and Dragon Phoenix, so I might take them up on it...

[Dragon Phoenix]

Everybody who is fulminating at the new list: if we keep the old list and proceed as we have done for the past two years or so, it will take 4-5 years to get rid of the current waiting list (never mind the new sign-ups in the future). Is that better?

Or we can run 10-20 mafia games in parallel - but where do you get your players?

No-one has even tried to argue with my thesis that we have too many would-be mods for the number of players. So I am probably right in that respect. Not that anyone on the waiting list takes that into account in their reasoning. The same with the argument that the game should be there for the players, not the mods. All I hear is "I have a great idea and I want to run it to prove that I can do it". Not: this is what the players want. Guess what: the players probably do not want this - at least judging from some of the reactions in the OT discussion.

Anyway, you can all do what you want as far as I am concerned. I am neither playing nor modding mafia here anymore after my current games - a decision already taken some weeks ago.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Termital:

---

As it is, it smells of current (mafia and site) mods protecting their turf by putting an undue strain of difficult conditions on the rest. This may or may not be the case, but that's a definite impression

---

I've read everything about this and yes, I agree with what Termital says. It's like a mafia cartel has formed here without a democratic vote as to who agrees or not.

Originally posted by Termital again:

---

And now you have a mutiny- an unauthorised mafia game signup is currently going on. What will you do about it? Kill the thread?

---

It's already happened!

I agree that newbie mods should be given the chance to prove themselves in their game, dammit, the experienced mods started off as non-experienced chaps themselves sometime in the past eh?
This to me anyway is becoming a totalitarianism idea. Sorry.

[Antrax]

[Samadhi]

I disagree on one thing.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Antrax:

---

I don't really see what can be argued AGAINST a co-mod system.

---

Never really gave it a chance, did you old chum. But then again, egalitarianism rules as long as there are no votes to argue with.

[Termital]

Ok, I was very cranky when I posted last time, so sorry about that. And yes, DP's supply and demand analysis seems to be on par. So is Ant's comment on large mafias. And so is Cyberdork. I've been a D&D DM for quite some time, which is a lot more trouble than mafia modding, just because I thrill at all the players machinations and instantly know whether they're any good. Just like a movie. Would I write one so that another would run it? Only if I got paid for it. And I still insist the current system is too restrictive. So I'll propose another. This will require more administration, but could be fairer.

First of all, it requires a list of slots per size of mafia game. Then,

Every person that fulfills these criteria may submit a single proposal

-Daedalian member or above
-No submissions in waiting list,consideration, or mafia games running.
-Having played a mafia game before in every major role.
-Experience in handling consistent player input on the GL. (A successful mafia game, rpg, a few quizzes, or even sth like hirdy's puzzles (without the disgrace hopefully) -anything of this sort)
-For medium-sized mafia, a successful small one. For large mafias, a successful medium one.
-No proposal prohibition -see below.

Each proposal is to be judged by our tribunal on fairness. Fair ones get to the next stage, slightly unbalanced ones get talked over with the tribunal, unbalanced ones require that you re-fulfill the mafia experience criteria.

Each proposal to pass the fairness quota is rated for originality and design. That's where things like weird roles and themes come in. A list of accepted proposals is constructed in this manner, organised by grade. A member may remove his proposal to get a new one through the proccess.

When a slot is about to open, the people on top of this list are notified and asked if they are still available. Out of the top three? five? people on this list you pick the one whose last mafia modding was furthest back in time.

So, what do you think?

[mith]

First off, before you vote me on a tribunal or whatever else you are calling it, consider that I am only playing Mafia on the GL in rare cases (DP games), and will not be playing at all here after Rock and Pop is over (unless something incredibly interesting comes up). If you want me involved just 'cause I'm me, that's fine.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this. And, basically, I agree with both (all) sides. The waiting list is completely slowed down by too many mods wanting to run huge games that last way too long. At the same time, while some mods are better than others, I do think everyone should be given a fair chance to mod. And, really, there's not that much exciting about modding a mini game (not if it's a basic mini game, anyway). That's why I'm trying to design new forum software, it'd basically run the simple games for us.

So, I dunno. Obviously, people should play a few games before asking to mod a 50 player game based on Gone with the Wind or something. Maybe people should mod something basic before a theme game. Aga, while I agree that we all got our start somewhere (though, I, at least, did not get my start modding on this site), we all got our start *with small/simple games*. My first game on here was 12 players, 2 Mafia. DP's was pretty simple as well. I know everyone thinks they have great ideas, and maybe they do, and maybe some of them will even work well, but it does help to have modded something simple first.

I don't know what the solution is though. Aga's just being Aga, so I'll ignore him. Termital has some valid points, but I do think he is *way* off on a few things (in particular, the protecting turf comment, but he's already apologized for that post so I won't flame him for that and the patronizing bit. I don't think anyone is being patronizing, just realistic. I think loads of people can run games just fine, but there are still people that want to mod that would be horrible at it (some just sign up and leave, some start a game that is completely unbalanced, etc.). So, either we be objective about it and impose conditions for modding, or we try to judge hopeful mods on how we think they would do, which would be silly. I, for one, will have no part in that.

I don't know. It's a big mess. Maybe the GL doesn't need a waiting list any more. Or a compromise. Leave the waiting list how it was, add a mini game thing like is on mafiascum, maybe eventually people will get tired of waiting for a decade to mod theme games. Whatever. I'm going to work on making mafiascum good for playing mafia, and maybe all this bickering will be pointless.

[Lilifreid]

Termital, I disagree with your proposed restriction that a potential mod have to have played every major role at least once. A person could have played 10 games and gotten townie every time.

[Samadhi]

Or be like me and nearly always be scum.

[townie]

I know! And you can play only one game and get a major role. Is this synonymous with experience!
I say, "hell no!"

[Cyberdork]

One other thing tha I have a small disagreement with, and again not trying to step on any toes here, but from what I've read we have DP who has stated that he will not be modding or playing in mafia here anymore, and mith has said the same thing, so why are they on the "tribunal" that would have to mod our games?

[Neo]

I don't understand the grandfathering system. If I threw my name on the list, where would I fall? I was somewhere a year or two away from running a large themed game.

[Termital]

Mith's last comment is probably the best solution to all this mess . And replace major on that proposition with common. It should include townie, doc, cop, and Mafia at the very least. Probably mason too.
Now, if anybody's interested, I could whip up a small program to handle mafia games. (though a spreadsheet should be sufficient anyway). And maybe I could attach a rough fairness estimator on it. Given enough time, perhaps even a bot for the chat room! (though I wouldn't hold my breath for it )