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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:51 am Post subject: 41 |
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| Were you bored, CP? Anyway, as you can see from the various answers, different people have different beliefs, ideas, and opinions. Keep asking questions, and we'll keep giving answers. Hope we've answered them sufficiently so far. |
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Mck
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 3:20 am Post subject: 42 |
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Oh my, this thread has exploded while I've been absent. And my time now is limited. I typed up the answers to the first lot of questions that I saw... I'll post those, though to tell the truth, some of the other answers given are probably better.
As for the other questions, I'll have a crack at those, maybe not now though - my time online is EXTREMELY limited.
okay, I'm reading through now, and casinopete's answers really reflect pretty much most of what I was going to say. I'll post the answers I've written that maybe have a different spin, detail in different areas, whatever. but thanks, cp, for doing that. And all the others, too.
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| If your sins are forgiven everytime you go to mass, why is there such thing as Confession? |
An important concept in Christianity, as you have obviously noticed, is the forgiveness of sins, and the fact that our sins ARE forgiven, due to the actions of Jesus Christ. There is also the fact, however, that people upon becoming Christians are still going to continue to sin. This is where Catholicism separates from most other denominations in method, if not actually in the basic idea.
Once you have become a Christian, your sins are forgiven, however, a large part of this is repentance. You must own up to your sins, be truly sorry for having committed them, and make a genuine effort not to do it again. After all, you can't be forgiven for something if you are not truly sorry, and intend to go off and just do it again. The majority of Christians do not have a formal Confession, but confess their sins through prayer directly to God.
The Catholic Church does things in the way that you noted - by confessing their sins to a priest, and by saying prayers in penance. (I do not see the point in penance personally, doing something to "make up" for what is already forgiven, but I can certainly see benefits in that it gives people a sense of being able to do *something*, and prayer is always a good thing.) It is basically the same principle applying, it is just that the Catholic Church does it "by proxy".
So the reason, either way, stems from the fact that people will continue to sin, and need a way to show that they really are sorry. Most denominations do this through prayer - Confession in the Catholic Church is the same action, only made into a more formal ritual, to signify this turning away from sin.
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| If the Christian God is everywhere, why must we only go to a special building to worship him, and a sin if we don't? |
Well firstly, I don't think it is a sin not to go to church. A person can worship God and have just as much faith on their on. And in Christianity it's faith that matters. However, church - or Christian fellowship of any kind, really, any form of getting together with other Christians to worship God - is considered very important, for a lot of reasons. It can help you with your faith, and also your behaviour; it can prevent you from "straying", so to speak; it helps to build solidarity between Christians, provides support and somewhere to go if you need questions answered - just for a start. I don't know if it's NECESSARY, but it is certainly recommended.
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| What is the bare minimum you must believe to be able to call yourself any type of Christian? |
What casinopete said. As in, what jadesmar said. 
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| What is purgatory? What do you do in purgatory? How do you get there? And what about Limbo? |
I, too, had the idea that Purgatory was an idea of the Catholic Church alone. I had heard that it is believed to be a place where you go to be punished for your sins before you go to Heaven? If this is correct, then no. No. Can't exist - the only way to be cleansed of your sins is trust in Christ - if there were any other way, then His death would be one colossal waste. So people might differ with me on this, but my opinion is pretty firmly fixed.
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| Is God a guy or a girl? |
God, being more than human, is not subject to human limitations. DPW's answer was good - I was going to venture a "neither/both", for the reason I just mentioned.
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| What is Christening? |
I grew up in the Catholic Church, and had the impression that Christening was another name they gave to baptism.
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| Is it okay to have more than one god, as long as you do not place them before God? "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." |
False idols were mentioned by casinopete, but these do not necessarily have to be other "gods". God should be the most important thing in one's life, and treated as such - given appropriate consideration. If you are devoting your life to something above God - I don't know how to better phrase that... if God is coming second to other priorities, then obviously day-to-day things are being placed above God, which should never be the case. In that way, earthly things can be perceived as false idols, because they are being worshipped above God.
I didn't see anybody answer this one, though I was just skimming, so I'll put the pre-typed answer to this one:
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Why does Christianity encourage us to lower our pride, self-esteem, and expectations to a point that everything seems heavenly?
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I don't know about expectations, but the reason that Christianity focuses on lowering pride is to help us place others before ourselves. It is important to always try to treat people as though they are better than you, and better still to believe it. Humility is an important trait to have, for the simple reason that if you place yourself above others, in opinion or priority, then it is harder to treat those others with the respect that they, as fellow humans, deserve. I had a Bible passage for you, but I'm typing this up at my nan's house at the moment... *goes exploring* *staggers back with the biggest, oldest Bible she's ever seen* Mark 9:35 - "If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all." I have a newer version in simpler language... but basically, Jesus is saying that to be "first", or greatest, you must place yourself lowest. So yeah. Jesus said it, so it must be right. 
my answers for pretty much everything else match those of casinopete. I'm putting together an explanation of the "why" of Christian beliefs - I'll probably check it with him before I post it. But yeah. Thanks, all the Christians who've helped out.
Sorry for not being around, and not sticking around. I shall hopefully have decent access soon. I'm at an internet cafe right now though, and have less than an hour. So yeah. My apologies again. I hadn't anticipated this when I started the thread. |
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doormouse11
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:15 am Post subject: 43 |
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casinopete,
Thanks for the terminology note. oh! I really liked your explanation of Jesus as being a sort of cross-section of God that we can see. That makes a lot of sense to me.
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| You believe or you do not believe. Perhaps you mean if you believe but have doubts? |
Yeah, that's what I meant.
eykir,
The quote about the camel is a bit out of context. Jesus was talking to a rich man about how to enter the kingdom of God. I think he meant that it is much harder for people who are well off on Earth to not be spiritually distracted. They have a lot more to lose and give up in following God. What is so intimidating to me is how Jesus seems to suggest that it is practically impossible for someone to do. |
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The Ragin' South Asian
Head Poncho
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 5:46 am Post subject: 44 |
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| unless you have a really big needle or a really small camel or both |
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Dragon Phoenix
Judge Doom
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 6:06 am Post subject: 45 |
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| Do Christians mind when they are made fun of? link |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:03 am Post subject: 46 |
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| Courk wrote: |
To elaborate on CP's answer
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| Is it okay to have more than one god, as long as you do not place them before God? "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." |
If you pray to God for, say, 4 hours, and another god for 1 hour, during that one hour you are putting another god before God.
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| In the Catholic church, people are asked to believe they are actually eating the body of Christ, not soem representation. Transubstantiation has taken place. Now lots of people do this every Sunday, surely the should be a bvit more excitied about it! I mean if the Turin shroud turned out to be authentic, many people would think it was a fantastic relic. Yet here we have a actual peice of Christ's body and people eat it like it was any old bit of bread. Why? |
Because it happens EVERY Sunday? Not everyone in the world can read or even have access to books. You rprobably live within a few blocks of a library - why don't you go there every day? Because it's not new to you. You're used to it. You take it for granted. When children take their first communion, they're excited. The sad thing is, that happens about 2nd grade. No matter how many times you explain it, I don't think 8 year olds really understand. By the time they're old enough to grasp it, it's ho-hum. |
Is it not more plausible that no one actually believes it? |
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Courk
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 2:03 am Post subject: 47 |
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Actually, Mackay, you're a bit off on why Catholics have Confession. It's not just a ritual to signify turning away from sin. When you sin, you harm the Church. (There was a long discussion on this in my class, and most of it I can't remember. At any rate, if I could it'd be too long.) When you harm the Church you harm the people that make it up. Since you can't apologize to ALL the people you hurt, you talk to a representative of the Church - a priest.
"Guest", I can't say that no one actually believes it because that'd be a lie. Many people actually do believe that it is Christ's body and blood. |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:22 am Post subject: 48 |
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I wanted to post my beliefs on the baptism/christening thing.
I think that baptism is merely an outward showing of your acceptance of God's gift of Jesus' sacrifice. The real salvation comes when you accept this gift in your heart. I also think that baptism is the taking on of the Holy Spirit. That is when Jesus received the Holy Spirit. In my opinion, babies being baptised isn't "true" baptism because they aren't accepting God's gift, they're being made to. I believe that it has to be a conscious decision. That's just what I think.
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| Do Christians mind when they are made fun of? |
I personally do not appreciate it, but it isn't unexpected. After all, Jesus said that we would be persecuted because of him. |
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wordcross
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:02 am Post subject: 49 |
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Isn't it the other way around, that he was persecuted because of the original sin of man?
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Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? |
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Mackay
Saviour of Spiders
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:15 am Post subject: 50 |
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Courk: you're the Catholic expert, not me.  And it sounds quite logical the way you put it.
DP: I don't mind being made fun of. Actually, I make fun of Christians too. What I don't like is when people make generalisations about ALL Christians, or attack them based on little, or shaky, knowledge. I didn't click your link, but I've seen the Landover Baptist site before, and it cracked me up.
wordx: I don't really understand the question? |
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wordcross
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:29 am Post subject: 51 |
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| Jedo wrote: |
| After all, Jesus said that we would be persecuted because of him. |
I was just ribbing him by pointing out that Jesus supposedly died for the slavation of man in removing the taint of original sin. So wouldn't that mean that he was persecuted[i.e. crucified] because of us[mankind]?
I wasn't actually expecting an answer from you, unless I'm wrong and you want to point that out 
_________________
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? |
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doormouse11
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 3:26 pm Post subject: 52 |
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How do you know that the Bible is the right religious text to have faith in?
What does the Biblical God think about other religions, like Hinduism, Islam and Judaism?
I know there is stuff against homosexuality in the Old Testament, but is there anything in the New Testament? |
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Termital
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:29 pm Post subject: 53 |
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| Chuck wrote: |
| Faith must be God-given. I don't believe that we choose to believe or disbelieve something. |
So, if I follow this train of thought correctly, this non-believer was screwed by God to faithlessness, perhaps even eternal damnation? Well, it sounds like the kind of thing I'd be likely to do were I omnipotent and omniscient and stuff, but then again I'm not supposed to be good or anything. As for people choosing to believe or to disbelieve stuff because it is convenient, well they do it all the time. Just listen to how Reps justify their actions as Govt at their rally  .
As for Jedo's efforts, well, let's just say they live me distinctly uncovered. Do you actually feel that faith (and the christian one at that, seeing as you don't seem to grasp the concept of others exisiting) is like, innate? If you do, read above para. If not, then how does it grow in you?
Edit--Yup, the catholics have retained their confession method after the schism (like the Orthodox church), but the protestants generally threw it out. Which had something to do with my faith alone question if I remember anything from a past foray on the subject.
Oh, and I have the distinct feeling that mudbuck is mocking the proceedings, being raised in the enviroment of a much hipper faith and all, but I'm not known for my nose in such matters.
Saved best for last: I know that this is a hard concept to grasp in this day and age Eykir, but Jesus was no capitalist. The deal far as I recall it was that if you've got a stuffed bank account, then you are not doing what you can to help your fellow man. Love your neighbour as yourself and all-you ain't doing that when rich(er). Would you be saving the money were you say, starving or living in a cardboard box or would you get yourself food and shelter? Well then, why are you letting your neighbour go without when you can help him out? Yup, radical commie stuff, and a heavy cross for your average follower to bear, if you don't mind the blasphemy. The text around that quote is more succinct and to the point in its explanation of course. The Orthodox church prolly reveres St. Basil more than all the rest, remembering his memory on the first of the year, because he did exactly that. A rich man, he threw his entire fortune into sanatoriums and orphanages and schools and such, so many that they formed their own city (Again, as memory serves). Although I assume that writing the most beautiful, if long-winded, Mass helped a bit . (Well, either that or stuffing th priesthoods coffers- I'm not sure.)
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Better ways to push & pull!
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:07 am Post subject: 54 |
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| Termital wrote: |
| Chuck wrote: |
| Faith must be God-given. I don't believe that we choose to believe or disbelieve something. |
So, if I follow this train of thought correctly, this non-believer was screwed by God to faithlessness, perhaps even eternal damnation? |
I don't know about what Chuck was referring to, but when I see that statement, I think of Pharoh and the Egyptians. God hardened Pharoh's heart because he refused to let the Egyptians go so many times. If you reject God so many times, then he'll harden your heart and you won't believe in God. I know that may seem cruel, but you rejected Him first.
The other way to look at Chuck's statement is from a Calvinistic point of view: predestination. I myself do not believe in predestination, but if you did, you could take it that way.
Now, for the next paragraph, I'm not sure what you are asking. Do I think that faith is only in some and not in others or do I think that faith, once you have it, does nothing? If it's either of those that you are asking about, then no, I don't believe either of those.
What I believe about faith is that it is man's choice whether or not he believes in God. If he chooses not to so many times, then I believe that their heart will be hardened against God and they won't accept him. If man chooses to believe in God, then I believe that as they grow in their knowledge of God and the Bible (however limited that may be), that their faith will grow in the same manner, and they will eventually become where they believe in God with all their heart and will believe nothing else. If that's not clear enough, let me know. |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:27 am Post subject: 55 |
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| An eternity in paradise after I die sounds good to me. What if I want to believe that I'll have it but the evidence for it just isn't there? I can decide what physical actions I perform or refrain from performing, such as stealing or paying for something, but belief doesn't work like that. There's no belief switch that I can open or close. I observe and listen, and then either believe or not based on what I see and hear, not on what I want. |
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Phil_The_Rodent
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:40 am Post subject: 56 |
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Okay, here's a possibly troublesome batch of question. I know I'm pretty new, just wanted to throw this out there...
(a) Is it okay for a Christian to not study the Bible?
(b) If not, then how can they feel justified to put faith into a religion they are not familiar with? (seems largely superficial to me); and
(b) If so, how come so few of them know about Lilith? Uptnapishtim? The Apocrypha? Why is this information supressed/denied?
(c) Was Eve actually made from Adam's rib? |
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Courk
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:15 am Post subject: 57 |
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| What does the Biblical God think about other religions, like Hinduism, Islam and Judaism? |
Since the New Testament of the Bible is mostly about Jesus and his followers, the events that take place in it are before Islam's time. And, early Chrsitians didn't consider themselves a different religion - they considered themselves Jewish (more or less, converted Gentiles might not have). As far as I know, the Bible doesn't say anything about Islam, and whatever it mentions about Judaisim I would think would be fairly positive, politics aside. At any rate, the three religions share the same God. The Biblical God doesn't say "the Jewish religion is wrong," He's the god of that religion - He made it.
Imagine if someone walked up to you and told you that he (Bob) was the Second Coming of Christ. Also, assume he could get followers like Jesus did. This person's followers and other converts would consider themselves Christian. Sceptics would consider themselves Christian, even though they didn't believe this person. Mix in a few decades, and you have another new religion - Bobianity. In a nutshell, that's what I always thought of the relationship between Christianity and Judaisim.
While I don't think the Bible talks specifically about Hinduism, I think the Bible would calssify it under the "False Idols" category.
Phil:
a) Depends on what you mean by study. I can't just rattle off verses from memory, but I do know some stories and can explain some things. But, I wouldn't say I study the Bible.
b2) I think some books are kept from the Bible because the source may be off, (written too late possibly) Sorry, I don't know much about why books aren't included.
c) Depends on the interpretation of the Bible. Catholics vary on the whole creation story. Some say it's just a symbolic story, others say that's hwo it actually happened. I've mostly met people who say it's a symbolic story. So, the answer that I've most encountered is "no." |
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Phil_The_Rodent
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:37 am Post subject: 58 |
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Thanks for the candid replies, Courk:
BTW: the name wasn't Bob, it was Charles Taze Russell.
While I haven't read The Bible (though I follow the teachings found therein), I most certainly have studied its origins. Of the two names, and one book cited, the names predate but were among the origins af Genesis, and the book was found WITH the dead sea scrolls and accounts for (what was asked for earlier), Jesus's earlier years. The Aprocrypha wasn't included in King James' version of The Bible because some parts run contrary to what was being indoctrinated.
I am glad about answer (c). The rib thing is translation error from Hebrew to English. |
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YASS
Icarian Member
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 9:50 am Post subject: 59 |
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Christians break the commandment about "keeping holy the Sabbath day".
Here's what I mean. The Sabbath day, Saturday, was chosen at the time of Moses as the day that God's followers should keep holy. This was to differentiate them from those who worshipped the sun-god on the following day. In the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 363), it was decided to no longer celebrate the Sabbath day but instead celebrate "The Lord's Day", Sunday, that being the day of resurrection.
| Dugger and Dodd, A History of the True Religion - regarding Martin Luther wrote: |
| Luther himself, while it is said believed in and practiced the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, did not prescribe it in his articles of faith for his followers, in the copies that we now have access to. However, it has been said that in his original thesis, Luther advocated the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, but that his colleagues objected on the grounds that it was an unpopular doctrine, which would have a tendency to repulse supporters of the Reformation who were not as pious as they should have been, but were of great assistance against the usurpations of the papacy. |
And finally, my questions...
Since it is in blatant violation of the commandment, is it a sin to worship on Sunday instead of the Sabbath?
Do you care?
Should Christians revert to worshipping on the Sabbath?
Does the Christian church have the right to rewrite the commandments? |
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Not Agamemnon
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:45 am Post subject: 60 |
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Ok then, so Christian God does not like false idols or religeons that do not worship him as he is, right?
Lets go back in time.........
~swirly pictures and psychodelic colors cover the view~
........to long before Christianity, Judaism, Islam or any other religeon was around. People 'thanked' (or worshipped, whichever you like, but 'thanked' is more the proven belief) the seasons, the weather, the sun, tyhe rain, whatever really made their crops grow and gave them food. In this time there were no 'false' gods, just the seasonal way the earth moved around the sun.
Now Christian God, as has been aforementioned, would still have been present and watching all this going on, so surely he would be taking credit for the thanks that was being made. If this is the case, then why does he disapprove of that type of thing after Christianity became a world boom.?
Surely if he was so worldly knowing and full of himself, something that worships him in a different manner would not worry him in the slightest, more so it would inflate his ego more?
All religeons start from one story or being or belief, Paganism is no different in it's origins except being that it's much older than anything Christians started. Paganism is just a basic form of thanks without all the kurfuffle and rank structure that goes with it, so why is it not accepted as 'ok' with God fearing religeons?
My views are that these Christian religeons are so shallow that they cannot accept another basic form of their own faith being a pseudo-threat. I mean, Christian people can accept non-Christian people for the non-believers they are, but cannot acknowledge a belief that probably started their own faith off in the first place. |
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Reader
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 1:08 pm Post subject: 61 |
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What I believe about faith is that it is man's choice whether or not he believes in God. If he chooses not to so many times, then I believe that their heart will be hardened against God and they won't accept him.
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But faith is God given?
So if someone does not believe in God it is because God has not given him the faith. It's not that many people turn away from God, it's just that they never thought abou him. Fo rmany people it's a matter of environment and I'm not even talking about the 'hidden tribe' type characters. Is it realistic for someone born in a buddhist community to suddenly turn round and say 'Actually I'm gonna go for this God character instead' ? I think not, not anymore than it is for any Christians here to suddenly turn to Buddhism.
God could have open Pharoh's heart, right? He chose not to, then screwed him for it. Hardly seems fair. |
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Logain
Stretch Armstrong
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:41 pm Post subject: 62 |
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1) If God is omniscient and knows everything that will happen till the end of time, how can man have free will? Wouldn't the two conflict? Since God created man and based on what he did predetermined everything that would happen till the end of time since he is all knowing, then how can people's actions be considered free will?
2) If the Christian faith teaches us above all to be humble in our actions and for the deeds we do, then why is it right for people to give praise and worship to God? Isn't that hypocritical to worship and praise someone who tells us we shouldn't be worshipped and praised for what we do and are?
3) If heaven is eternal happiness, then how can hell exist? How can anyone be eternally happy in heaven if someone they knew or loved is suffering in hell? |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:44 pm Post subject: 63 |
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1) Why does God knowing what you're going to choose detract from the value of your choice? Let's say you could go back in time as an observer to some famous historical era. You know the French revolution's going to happen, does that mean the people who start it have no free will?
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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Logain
Stretch Armstrong
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:54 pm Post subject: 64 |
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| Yeah, but God created the world and man, so based on his actions, he predetermined things like creating a movie. It's really his choices being played out and made by us then. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:00 pm Post subject: 65 |
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| Is it true that the bible has been edited/changed/updated over 80+ times? |
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Mackay
Saviour of Spiders
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:09 pm Post subject: 66 |
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I'm only going to answer Logain's questions right now, because I'm just snatching about 10 minutes of computer time, and they're the ones that (to me) are the easiest.
| Logain wrote: |
| 1) If God is omniscient and knows everything that will happen till the end of time, how can man have free will? Wouldn't the two conflict? Since God created man and based on what he did predetermined everything that would happen till the end of time since he is all knowing, then how can people's actions be considered free will? |
Well, it couldn't be, if you consider that God is limited by time, but He isn't... To steal an analogy from C.S. Lewis - imagine that all of time is a line drawn on a piece of paper, and all of existence is travelling along this line as it moves forward through time. Now imagine that God is the piece of paper. In the way you are thinking, God is simply moving along the line with the rest of us, but the truth is that He is outside of it, and all around it. And in this way, He sees ALL of time, beginning to end. We have free will within our frame of reference, and God does not change or control our actions - but He CAN see them in their entirety. Hope that helps.
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| 2) If the Christian faith teaches us above all to be humble in our actions and for the deeds we do, then why is it right for people to give praise and worship to God? Isn't that hypocritical to worship and praise someone who tells us we shouldn't be worshipped and praised for what we do and are? |
God is perfect, and our creator. He is actually worthy of praise, unlike humans. I'm sure there's a better answer than that, but I don't have the time, and the other idea I have at the moment is half-baked... ask casinopete?
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| 3) If heaven is eternal happiness, then how can hell exist? How can anyone be eternally happy in heaven if someone they knew or loved is suffering in hell? |
Firstly, definitions of Heaven vary, but the one definite is that eternity will be spent with God, who is infinitely good... the concerns that one has while living are completely obliterated in the presence of such joy. I am not saying that we will simply forget these people, simply that if anything they will exist as happy memories. The joy that comes from being with God is so great that I don't think it would be possible to be anything but happy. But there's probably a better answer for that one as well.
Not Aga: Can you cite a source to prove that paganism was around before Judaism? For someone who makes quite... harsh comments against other faiths who, as you pointed out, rightly or wrongly claim to be "right", you seem quite closed to other considerations yourself. I would assume that all of the first faiths would have started just about simultaneously, in different parts of the world? No? Then please cite. |
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Phil_The_Rodent
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:50 pm Post subject: 67 |
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| Mackay wrote: |
| I would assume that all of the first faiths would have started just about simultaneously, in different parts of the world? No? Then please cite. |
EEP. There's that word assume.
As I mentioned, Sumerian mythology runs rampant throughout Genesis, and their belief structure predates Judaism by 3000 years (assuming the oldest parts of the Old Testament were written 2000 BC).
I think the strongest argument for belief in a Christian god is that this belief gives you comfort and strength. You don't need a better argument than that. |
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casinopete
Emergency Backup Antrax
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 6:28 pm Post subject: 68 |
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Oy! So far behind. Let's see... I'm still back at 8/31!
| Termital wrote: |
| So, how do I know there is a God? How do I know that the christian version of religion is true? |
You have experiences best explained by the Bible.
| Termital wrote: |
| How do I pick the correct demonination from this supermarket of heresies? |
Most denominations are not heretical to most others. So long as you believe the core truths (existence of God, reality of sin, salvation by Jesus' payment for your sins) you are fine. Denominational choice should be based on "additional points" you agree with, like specifics of baptism, eucharist, charisma, etc.
| Termital wrote: |
| Why did God made his presence known? |
He wants to be worshipped.
| Termital wrote: |
| Why does he expect my worship? |
Because (a), He created you to be most fulfilled when worshipping Him, and (b), because He deserves it.
| Termital wrote: |
| What do I get in return, if anything? |
Bliss.
| Termital wrote: |
| What does the presence of an omniscient god mean for my free will, assuming I have one to begin with? |
Oh, boy. This'll take awhile (and is partially responsible for my falling behind).
Key to my explanation is to break the idea of omniscience, or knowledge in general, into three types: Natural Knowledge, Middle Knowledge, and Free Knowledge, which I will define as I go along.
When I roll a die (standard six-sided), I know that there are six possible outcomes, and I know what those possible outcomes are. Similarly, God knows all of the ways man might respond in any given situation. He knows all the choices a man might make. This analogy is weak, and oversimple, since a die has no free will, but it's enough to convey the idea of what Natural Knowledge is all about.
There is a larger set of knowledge I can have about the die. If I am aware of every factor in the rolling of the die, such as height of drop, spin, surface friction and elasticity (and much more, of course), I can predict exactly what the die will do, with any given cast I make. Here it would be useful to employ a slightly better analogy. If I have offered my younger brother a piece of candy every day, and every day he has accepted it, and conditions are in every way similar between former trials and the current one, I know that if I again offer candy to my brother, he will accept it. I am not forcing him to accept it, I am not coercing him to accept it, yet despite the fact that he could reject it, I know he will not.
God has this knowledge about every possible decision every possible entity will make in every possible circumstance and history, but just as my knowledge about my brother doesn't actually remove my brother's Free Will, God's knowledge of how I will respond to any situation does not remove my Free Will. He does not in any of these cases need to co-opt my will, He is simply able to predict my choice. This set of knowledge is being referred to as Middle Knowledge.
So at this point we have described that God knows all possible worlds, and the "workings out" of those worlds, but we haven't mentioned our specific world. At some point, He made a decision, a Divine Decree, a choice as to which world would be actualized (like I might roll in such a manner as to deliberately get a six, or actually make the offer of candy to my brother). This set in motion a particular path, one of which God already understands every aspect, and has predicted every action that will take place. This knowledge, the knowledge of what will in fact happen, because God set us on this path, is Free Knowledge.
Notice that in my description, at no point was Free Will inhibited or damaged by God's foreknowledge. There is some kind of fault in our initial reaction to this question that we start out by seeing a paradox, but when we rigorously examine what knowledge is all about, there is simply no conflict to be found. It's kinda like the Monty Hall problem. fnord.
[mini-disclaimer]This is not a claim about "what really takes place." These divisions of knowledge are logical moments, and not temporal moments. I am in no way describing an evolution of God's knowledge, only detailing a tool for understanding it.[/mini-disclaimer]
| Termital wrote: |
| Is faith without deed sufficient for salvation? |
Yes, but.
This is kinda like the: "If sin is beneficial, is it still wrong?" question, in that there is a problem with the phrasing/terms. Real faith will produce deeds, invariably.
| Termital wrote: |
| To me it seems that most protestant branches display a la carte preferences for bible parts and blame the ones they don't like on the writer's interference with the divine message. This line seems kind of weak to me when refering to Jesus sayings as reported in multiple gospels. |
Agreed, though I wouldn't limit to Protestants, or even Christians, for that matter.
| Termital wrote: |
| So, I wonder what's the word on the "divorced women=whores" teachings nowadays. |
I am not familiar with the source? But, tentatively, I would say yes. As are divorced men. And who cares? That all of mankind is sinful is a basic tenet of Christian theology.
| Termital wrote: |
| And of course, now I have to ask: Is dancing the limbo an abomination before God? And does the answer depend on one's baptismal status? |
No and no. fnord. |
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casinopete
Emergency Backup Antrax
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:34 pm Post subject: 69 |
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| doormouse1 wrote: |
| So why do we keep sinning once we are baptised and rid of the bit of the devil? I always get confused when people say that Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. Wouldn't we need to be constantly rebaptised every time we sinned? Is once enough? |
Jesus paid for all sin, all at once. We do not need new forgiveness each time we sin (else, logically, we would need new Jesuses and Crucifixions constantly). Baptism is a symbol for our repentance of all sin, and our acceptance of that one-time event/payment and forgiveness.
| doormouse1 wrote: |
| If you sin immediately before you die, (say you shout a particularly harsh obscenity at a little old lady driving so slowly in the fast lane, not realizing that she is a little old lady. you forget to watch the road and come to a tragic end - you would have felt terrible, but you didn't have the time to repent in your last instant before croaking) will God forgive you? |
Yes.
| doormouse1 wrote: |
| That verse is terrifying to me. Is it really so impossible for someone rich to enter the kingdom of God? |
There are a lot of specifics about the passage that need understood so this doesn't get pulled out of context.
In Jesus' conversation with the man right before this, he mentioned some commandments. The rich man responded that he had kept them. It's very telling, though, which commandments Jesus mentioned. All of them were the "love your neighbor as yourself" commandments - he left out the commandments about idols and the Sabbath and such, the ones generally considered "love the Lord your God with all your heart" commandments.
Jesus was pointing out that there was something missing in the man's relationship with God. The demand that the man give up his wealth must be understood in this context. Jesus was not saying everyone must give up all their money in order to make it to Heaven, he was pointing out that for this man, wealth was interfering in his relationship with God - he loved his wealth too much to give it up in exchange for the promise of Heaven.
Jesus' following explanation to the disciples (your quote) must also be understood in this way. Jesus is pointing out what an attractive and persistant idol wealth can be, and that any man who is rich will be in constant struggle, because love of money is just so tempting.
"You cannot serve both God and Money." - Matthew 6:24
It is very much worth pointing out one additional thing. Just two lines later (Matt 19:26), Jesus says "with God all things are possible." It sort of sheds an interesting light on the "impossibilty" of a camel passing through a needle's eye, and rich men entering the Kingdom of God.
| doormouse1 wrote: |
| What do you really have to do to follow God's commandments completely? |
Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:36-40)
| doormouse1 wrote: |
| Does it totally suck being a Christian? |
No. Quite the opposite.
| doormouse1 wrote: |
| Reading the new testament, I keep wondering if I could give my life up for faith and still love people |
You are actually much more free to really love people after giving up the cares and distractions of "life."
| doormouse1 wrote: |
| I don't know that I could handle the pressure of being spiritually ready to make that kind of sacrifice. |
I don't know if any of us are - It takes mountains of faith to make such a jump. But we want to be able to make that sacrifice, we "want to want" the Kingdom with all our hearts, which, by my careful reckoning, is roughly a mustardseed's worth of faith. fnord.
| doormouse1 wrote: |
| What happened to Jesus during his adolescent years? Is there any information on his life between childhood and adulthood? |
The gospel of Thomas has some info along those lines, but Thomas has other elements that make me distrust it as a whole. I can't think of any serious info. |
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casinopete
Emergency Backup Antrax
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:36 pm Post subject: 70 |
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| Eykir wrote: |
| I was under the impression that Christians believed that as long as you accepted Jesus and repented your sins, you would make it into heaven. Why does wealth in life have anything to do with it? |
My answer to doormouse1 just above contains my answer for this, too. Being wealthy makes it hard to cut yourself off from the cares of the world and love God with all your heart. |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:02 pm Post subject: 71 |
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| Mackay wrote: |
| Well, it couldn't be, if you consider that God is limited by time, but He isn't... To steal an analogy from C.S. Lewis - imagine that all of time is a line drawn on a piece of paper, and all of existence is travelling along this line as it moves forward through time. Now imagine that God is the piece of paper. In the way you are thinking, God is simply moving along the line with the rest of us, but the truth is that He is outside of it, and all around it. And in this way, He sees ALL of time, beginning to end. We have free will within our frame of reference, and God does not change or control our actions - but He CAN see them in their entirety. Hope that helps. |
If God is outside of time then His act of creation would have created our entire universe from beginning to end as one instant act of creation, from His point of view. From His point of view, we were created in an instant, already in the act of sinning.
| casinopete wrote: |
| There is a larger set of knowledge I can have about the die. If I am aware of every factor in the rolling of the die, such as height of drop, spin, surface friction and elasticity (and much more, of course), I can predict exactly what the die will do, with any given cast I make. Here it would be useful to employ a slightly better analogy. If I have offered my younger brother a piece of candy every day, and every day he has accepted it, and conditions are in every way similar between former trials and the current one, I know that if I again offer candy to my brother, he will accept it. I am not forcing him to accept it, I am not coercing him to accept it, yet despite the fact that he could reject it, I know he will not. |
If you had designed and created your brother down to the last atom then his accepting the candy would be your will.
So I have free will, but it's the free will that God created and gave to me. If He had given me a different free will then I'd be making different decisions. Or perhaps all free wills are the same but He put each of us into different circumstances which affects our decisions. In any case, all of my attributes and my environment all come from God. However free will works, God made it work that way.
The brain seems to make decisions following physical laws. Light enters my eye triggering cells in my retina to fire which cause cells in my optic never to fire which cause my brain to become aware of a pie cooling on a window sill. My stomach, in similar fashion, informs my brain that I'm hungry. But I've been taught earlier in life that stealing is wrong. The hunger isn't quite strong enough to overcome that early training so I don't take it. If there's some higher processing at work called free will that made the decision for me then how does it work? Are there laws of metaphysics that work something like our laws of physics? Didn't God create those laws too? Doesn't the assumption that we have free will just push the problem up one level? Whether I'm a mass of neurons or something higher, God created them and created the laws by which they function. |
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Phil_The_Rodent
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:37 pm Post subject: 72 |
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Alright, well, I'm not really gonna go pushing my personal beliefs on you guys, but I have a thought about this in my own kinda "world view" that may burst this free-will vs. determinism blister you have going on.
If multi-world theory of quantum mechanics is correct (at every quantum moment, the fourth dimension splits), all possible outcomes exist in 5 dimensions. This is the realm of probability. All things have been determined. ALL Outcomes exist. So determinism is correct. BUT, we only experience one timeline. So free-will is also correct (we choose which outcome we experience [Choose your own adventure!]). It's not an either-or situation, in my thinking. BOTH are correct, but the sides don't see each other because both sides are caught up trying to convince the opposition they are correct. |
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Courk
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 2:32 am Post subject: 73 |
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| He he he... Which way books... |
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Eykir
DDR Freak
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:03 am Post subject: 74 |
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| Termital wrote: |
| Saved best for last: I know that this is a hard concept to grasp in this day and age Eykir, but Jesus was no capitalist. The deal far as I recall it was that if you've got a stuffed bank account, then you are not doing what you can to help your fellow man. Love your neighbour as yourself and all-you ain't doing that when rich(er). Would you be saving the money were you say, starving or living in a cardboard box or would you get yourself food and shelter? Well then, why are you letting your neighbour go without when you can help him out? Yup, radical commie stuff, and a heavy cross for your average follower to bear, if you don't mind the blasphemy. The text around that quote is more succinct and to the point in its explanation of course. The Orthodox church prolly reveres St. Basil more than all the rest, remembering his memory on the first of the year, because he did exactly that. A rich man, he threw his entire fortune into sanatoriums and orphanages and schools and such, so many that they formed their own city (Again, as memory serves). Although I assume that writing the most beautiful, if long-winded, Mass helped a bit . (Well, either that or stuffing th priesthoods coffers- I'm not sure.) |
Quite the contrary, Termital. It seems that Jesus is one of the biggest capitalists of all. He traffics in human souls, and it was his quest to try to get as many as possible into heaven with him.
And I don't buy any of your statement because it amounts to an advocation of slavery. If you want to be a slave, you can be a slave. I will not.
Casinopete: That is a nice explanation, although I can't say I fully agree with it. One of the huge things that is bothersome about the bible is that it was written in and for a time 2000 years ago, when the world was a lot different than it is today. In the past money was not as necessary as it is today to finance religion and to attempt conversions. Today's world, at least in America (I can't speak for other countries), differs in that money is a key point to doing just about anything.
Is it not easier to try to do god's will if you have the monetary ability to do anything?
Doesn't the 10% tithe required of some demoninations contradict the "You cannot serve both God and Money." quote? Especially in light of how some current churches are trying to save their money from lawsuits by putting it elsewhere.
Lastly, why does god command people to perform acts that he considers sinful? There are many examples of god telling someone to kill another person in the bible. |
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casinopete
Emergency Backup Antrax
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:09 am Post subject: 75 |
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| Chuck wrote: |
If you had designed and created your brother down to the last atom then his accepting the candy would be your will.
...
Are there laws of metaphysics that work something like our laws of physics? Didn't God create those laws too? Doesn't the assumption that we have free will just push the problem up one level?
...
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A good point. A very good point. It didn't occur to me when I was thinking about this that the basic physical laws were part of God's initial choice. There was no setting within which He chose - He made it all.
And thus my answer was nothing more than spinning in circles (for me, anyway - the argument could still hold for believers in a God of limited potence).
And I guess I'm stuck there for now. Either there is no absolute Free Will, or God is in some fashion limited in either power or knowledge. And I don't know which.
I will close, though, by saying that I don't think the question really matters much. If there is no Free Will, asserting such is meaningless. Also, since I do not have complete knowledge, it still feels like I have Free Will, so I will go ahead and operate under the assumption that I have it. |
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casinopete
Emergency Backup Antrax
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:41 am Post subject: 76 |
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Well, I'll go back for other questions. I really feel like answering the recent stuff, though. fnord.
| Termital wrote: |
| Saved best for last: I know that this is a hard concept to grasp in this day and age Eykir, but Jesus was no capitalist. |
I do not think terms like capitalist or communist make any sense in this context. What Jesus tells you to do with your money has nothing to do with how a government should run a market. If anything, though, I think Jesus would favor Capitalism, simply because He calls his followers to behave radically with their money, and government control would inhibit that.
| Eykir wrote: |
| Casinopete: That is a nice explanation, although I can't say I fully agree with it. One of the huge things that is bothersome about the bible is that it was written in and for a time 2000 years ago, when the world was a lot different than it is today. In the past money was not as necessary as it is today to finance religion and to attempt conversions. Today's world, at least in America (I can't speak for other countries), differs in that money is a key point to doing just about anything. |
I do not accept any of this. I don't think the world is "different" in any ways that matter, and I certainly don't think "money was not as necessary" back then. If anything, it was proportionally more expensive to travel, find gathering-places, and seek housing. Certainly it was more time-consuming.
Even were those points granted, though, I can't see what it has to do with the saving of money. I have no need whatsoever to save up a fortune, and the time in which I live has no bearing on that at all.
| Eykir wrote: |
| Is it not easier to try to do god's will if you have the monetary ability to do anything? |
It is not my business to try and do His will most "easily." And if you meant "effectively" - that's not my business either. No matter how financially able I am, I cannot further His will without His help, and no matter how financially unable, I cannot fail so badly that He can't complete His work anyway.
| Eykir wrote: |
| Doesn't the 10% tithe required of some demoninations contradict the "You cannot serve both God and Money." quote? |
I cannot for the life of me see how. What, exactly, is the contradiction?
| Eykir wrote: |
| Especially in light of how some current churches are trying to save their money from lawsuits by putting it elsewhere. |
The actions of specific churches don't have anything to do with our conversation. A "church" can act rightly or wrongly, and based on your sparse description, they are acting wrongly.
| Eykir wrote: |
| Lastly, why does god command people to perform acts that he considers sinful? There are many examples of god telling someone to kill another person in the bible. |
Killing is not sinful. Are there other acts you have in mind? |
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casinopete
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:59 am Post subject: 77 |
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| Reader's Di wrote: |
| 1)Is faith god-given? if so surely those without faith are those who God has chosen not to give it to. Why did he only pick some people? Even those who go and find faith must have been led to it by God. Is God selcetive? |
Despite my uncertainty after my exchange with Chuck, I still lean toward the Free Will interpretation. From this perspective, God leads everyone to Himself, but people can choose not to follow His lead. You cannot give a gift to an unwilling recipient.
| Reader's Di wrote: |
| 2) In the Catholic church, people are asked to believe they are actually eating the body of Christ, not soem representation. Transubstantiation has taken place. Now lots of people do this every Sunday, surely the should be a bvit more excitied about it! I mean if the Turin shroud turned out to be authentic, many people would think it was a fantastic relic. Yet here we have a actual peice of Christ's body and people eat it like it was any old bit of bread. Why? |
1) Familiarity breeds contempt.
2) A lot of people attend church out of habit rather than faith.
3) I have counterexamples. In the two churches I have attended regularly, we do not believe in the same kind of physical transubstantiation, but we do consider the experience sacramental, and we are excited, and moved, and overwhelmed by it. |
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casinopete
Emergency Backup Antrax
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 5:17 am Post subject: 78 |
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| Dragon Phoenix wrote: |
| Do Christians mind when they are made fun of? |
See Mackay's answer.
| doormouse11 wrote: |
| How do you know that the Bible is the right religious text to have faith in? |
Because it's about Jesus. I believe the Bible because of my faith in Christianity, not the other way around.
| doormouse11 wrote: |
| What does the Biblical God think about other religions, like Hinduism, Islam and Judaism? |
I think it depends on the alternate religion. They contain a lot of truths in them, just not the whole truth of Christianity. For example, nearly all of them have a variation of the golden rule as a tenet, and obviously God is approves of at least that element.
| doormouse11 wrote: |
| I know there is stuff against homosexuality in the Old Testament, but is there anything in the New Testament? |
Yes. |
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casinopete
Emergency Backup Antrax
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 5:42 am Post subject: 79 |
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| Phil_The_Rodent wrote: |
| (a) Is it okay for a Christian to not study the Bible? |
This really is a toughie.
In an absolute sense, absolutely. Obviously the early Christians didn't have our canon to study, and there are times when a Bible is not available. Further, while not everything is profitable, everything is permitted - whether you study the Bible has no bearing on your salvation.
In a "middle" sense - the early Christians did constantly discuss Jesus' actions and teaching. If you're not learning from the Bible, you better be learning from somewhere. Faith that doesn't evolve is dead and rigid, and God does not fill rigid vessels with His Spirit, lest they burst and waste it.
At the obvious level, the way I read your post most naturally: No, if a believer has access and time to study the Bible, they should be doing so. "Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16). Further, how can you love the Lord your God with all your heart if you pass up on chances to learn more about Him?
| Phil_The_Rodent wrote: |
| (b) If not, then how can they feel justified to put faith into a religion they are not familiar with? (seems largely superficial to me) |
Most "Christians" are not really followers of Christ. They grow up in the Church, or see it as mere social interaction. I assure you that my Christian friends and myself have studied the Bible regularly and faithfully.
| Phil_The)Rodent wrote: |
| (b) If so, how come so few of them know about Lilith? Uptnapishtim? The Apocrypha? Why is this information supressed/denied? |
Same answer.
(But Lillith is a bad example - there's nothing there worth bothering with.)
| Phil_The_Rodent wrote: |
| (c) Was Eve actually made from Adam's rib? |
Eve was torn from Adam's side, yes. In the sense of implying that there were two sides to Adam 1.0, and God ripped him+her in half to make Adam 2.0 and Eve. I've had one professor theorize that Adam 1.0 was actually hermaphroditic, and furthermore in a constant state of self-coitus until God bisected him+her.
| Phil_The_Rodent wrote: |
| The Aprocrypha wasn't included in King James' version of The Bible because some parts run contrary to what was being indoctrinated. |
And, perhaps, a little bit, because they weren't in the Tanach? |
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casinopete
Emergency Backup Antrax
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| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 5:53 am Post subject: 80 |
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| YASS wrote: |
Christians break the commandment about "keeping holy the Sabbath day".
etc.
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Christians are not required to follow the Law. It is a bit questionable to berate them for not following something they are not required to follow.
| YASS wrote: |
| Since it is in blatant violation of the commandment, is it a sin to worship on Sunday instead of the Sabbath? |
No. See previous answer.
Yes. Very much, in fact.
| YASS wrote: |
| Should Christians revert to worshipping on the Sabbath? |
I wish we would, at least mostly, for those it didn't inordinately inconvenience. There's nothing wrong with worshipping on Sunday - I just don't like the idea of "mirroring" the Sabbath, but switching the day for no real reason.
| YASS wrote: |
| Does the Christian church have the right to rewrite the commandments? |
No... And nor have they. My Bible still reads that the Sabbath is on the seventh day... doesn't yours? |
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