Questions for Catholics

[Jedo the Jedi]

Alright, so we got started talking about the new Pope in GL Central, and my skepticism came out. It started with me wondering why the Pope had to change his name to something else. Then, I was wondering about the selection of the Pope and how it, to me, seems somewhat hokey. I was quickly rebuffed and told that it's secret, so how could it be hokey. *shrug* That's why I'm starting this thread.

In this thread, I want to ask (and others may join) all of my questions about the Catholic religion. If the people who are of this religion would do their best to answer these questions, that'd be great. So, here goes.

Did the Catholic religion establish the Canon? If so, why?
Why does the Catholic religion pray to Mary? (If they do. I'm not sure, that's why I'm asking.)
Why do Catholics go to confessional? (groza tried to answer this, but I wasn't satisfied and we continued debating the issue.)
Do Catholics follow the Bible? If so, all of it or only some? If some, what parts?
Do Catholics have extra laws/requirements besides those found in the Bible?
What do Catholics believe about Jesus?

If it helps at all, I am a member of the Church of Christ, but I prefer to not be stereo-typed by denominational names. I follow the Bible, and that is my only doctrine.

[Mackay]

I grew up Catholic, but know very little about it. Here's my perspective which may well be wrong.

Why does the Catholic religion pray to Mary? (If they do. I'm not sure, that's why I'm asking.) - Yes, and they also pray to the saints. I think it is a sign of deference, asking someone they believe to be "holier" than themselves to ask God for help on their behalf?

Why do Catholics go to confessional? (groza tried to answer this, but I wasn't satisfied and we continued debating the issue.) - once again, just a slight differing in beliefs, as far as I can tell. We all confess our sins in prayer to God, this is simply taking it to a new level, confessing our sins out loud to one of God's 'representatives', so to speak. I think both of these last two questions add a humility not seen in other denominations of Christianity.

Do Catholics follow the Bible? If so, all of it or only some? If some, what parts? - Er, Catholics are still Christians, you know.

Do Catholics have extra laws/requirements besides those found in the Bible? - They have extra rituals which are not performed by other denominations. But see above. They are still Christians, and as such, the "requirements" for salvation are the same.

What do Catholics believe about Jesus? - Er... this is beginning to get repetitive, but the same as any other denomination of Christianity?

[Sessie]

Twelve years of Catholic school, and I can answer maybe three of these.

Why does the Catholic religion pray to Mary?
As far as I know, it has something to do with the fact that she gave birth to the Son of God, who is really God Incarnate or something (see answer #3).

Why do Catholics go to confessional?
So they (we, I guess, though I'm more what you'd call a paperwork Catholic) can be forgiven for all their sins. They confess their sins to the priest, and he forgives them. This "absolution" is believed to be equivalent to the forgiveness of God himself. Thus, you go to confession, you confess, you say some prayers, and *poof* you've got a clean slate. Tada.

What do Catholics believe about Jesus?
That he's the human representation of God. Which never quite made sense to me, since we were also taught that he's the Son of God. So he's both God's Son and God. See, it's not the least bit confusing.

Actually, maybe a better way to think of it is that Jesus is actually God in human form, but God had to get said human form to Earth somehow, rather than some random guy appearing out of nowhere. So he made Mary pregnant so she could give birth to him.

Okay, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask about these things. Suffice it to say, don't bother trying to understand Catholicism, because it really doesn't make any sense. And not only that, but if you ask too many questions about it, you go to hell.

[edit]Ooh, Mackay brought up a good point about praying to Mary. Take this extremely common prayer, the Hail Mary:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee,
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
Pray for us sinners,
Now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

So basically, Mary and the saints are sort of mediators between you and God. You pray to them, they relay the message.
_________________
"I have an everyday religion that works for me: love yourself first, and everything else falls into line." --Lucille Ball

[Jedo the Jedi]

Well, the way Mackay responded to my inquiries, I must have worded my questions wrong. Let me try to clarify.

About Catholics following the Bible, you mentioned that they perform rituals that other denominations do not. Why? If it's not in the Bible, then we're not commanded to do it. (Unless, of course, God speaks to you and tells you to do something.) This is like adding to the Bible. The people at the top of the Catholic hierarchy just made up these things that are not required and required them. Seems a bit...not right. Plus, if I am correct about the Canon, then I know they added to the Bible. It specifically says not to do that in there. (In Revelation, if you want to look it up. Last chapter, at the end. ) Since I have proven that they do believe a bit different (or at least more than others), let us move on.

Now, concerning the praying to the saints and Mary, you two say they do that because they are "holier" than us and can therefore mediate better than us. Whatever! They were humans just like us, and they sinned too. There is nothing there that makes them holier than anybody else. I'll even take it one step further saying that Jesus is the only person who was even remotely holy. If you are saying that they are holy now because they're in heaven with God, that's debatable. I don't want to bring that up now, but if you wish, we can discuss it. (Just a small side note, Paul writes in Ephesians 6:18 'And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.' *shrug*)

Moving on to the confessional question. Why the "Father"? Is he somehow more special than everyone else? I think that the leaders of the Catholic church are put on too high a pedestal. This guy is ordained by God? Says who? The other Catholic leaders? I'm sorry to be so skeptical and mocking, but this is how I see it. Perhaps it is my ignorance of the Catholic doctrine, but it seems very...superficial? That's not the right word, but it's close. True, it may be humbling to confess it to a priest rather than just God, but the priest can't hold you accontable considering he listens to dozens of other confessions too. He's not going to remember you or your sin from the next Joe that enters the booth. I say, confess it to a close friend who is willing to help hold you accountable and check up on you later and see that you have made things right. Pardon me if I'm missing something here, but it's only how I see it.

And, Sessie, only God can forgive sins. Not some priest. That's what gets me the most about Catholicism. This idea that a mere human like the rest of us has the ability to forgive sins. It's seems so blasphemous to me. I don't know. It's a good thing that I waited until the end of the day to type all of this after I'd calmed down from reading it earlier. Please feel free to correct me. Or reprimand, whatever the case may be.

[Courk]

Answering Jedo's new questions:

• "Extra" rituals
  They're usually based on tradition from ages past. For quite some time masses had to be said in Latin. That's nowhere in the Bible. It wasn't until Vatican II in the '60s that masses were allowed to be said in the language of the people.
  
  I don't think we've added anything to the Bible, just to the way we worship.
  
  
• Saints - I'll just quote, I wasn't taught too much about Saints that I remember:
  

  Catholic Online wrote:

  Do Catholics pray TO saints? We pray with saints, not to them. Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you when you were having a hard time? Why did you choose to ask that person? You may have chosen someone you could trust, or someone who understood your problem, or someone who was close to God. Those are all reasons we ask saints to pray for us in times of trouble. Since saints led holy lives and are close to God in heaven, we feel that their prayers are particularly effective. Often we ask particular saints to pray for us if we feel they have a particular interest in our problem. For example, many people ask Saint Monica to pray for them if they have trouble with unanswered prayers, because Monica prayed for twenty years for her son to be converted. Finally her prayers were answered in a way she never dreamed of -- her son, Augustine, became a canonized saint and a Doctor of the Church.

  
  
  
• Confession
  We go to confession because, as I learned in my sophomore year, by sinning we harm not only ourselves, but also those associated with ourselves - the rest of the Church. We can't simply just ask God for forgiveness ourselves because we also need to apologize to the Church - hence the priest. He's just a representative of the Church.
  
  
• What we believe about Jesus
  In a nutshell, the Nicene Creed is what we believe about Jesus.

[groza528]

[Courk]

I'm almost sure she sinned at some point in her life. The Immaculate Conception means that she was born without Original Sin, you know, the stuff from Adam and Eve. That makes her the first person saved by Jesus.

[groza528]

[Mackay]

Courk's answers are brilliant. I'd never heard the thing about the saints put that way before.

Jedo:

[Courk]

My bad, then (about Mary having sinned).

[Mackay]

Heh, Courky and Groza posted while I was posting.

And we all seem to have different definitions for the Immaculate Conception. *laugh*

Probably... listen to Courk, if in doubt? She is the most well-informed Catholic of those of us who are answering, iirc. I am just an expat trying to be helpful, myself.

[Mackay]

Stop it, Courky!

[Courk]

The Immaculate Conception is the conception of Mary.

[groza528]

regarding the conduit thing, yeah, that's why I deleted mine after simulposting. And like I've said many times, I'm still early on the path here, I don't claim to be qualified to answer, but I'll still chip in here and there.
And the Immaculate Conception is NOT about Jesus.

[groza528]

Can we all get into chat and bicker there, then choose a representative to post?

[Courk]

OT: I read all of Mackay's post 8 thinking it was posted by Jedo...

[Mackay]

I'm not saying that the Immaculate conception is "about" Jesus!

I am saying that the phrase "Immaculate Conception" refers to an immaculate conception, of a holy child, by a sinless (arguably, but let's not get into that, I have no opinion) woman and the Holy Spirit!

[Mackay]

....and what I am saying is wrong.

[Courk]

And I maintain that it doesn't!

[The Ragin' South Asian]

fight! fight! fight! fight! fight!

[Jedo the Jedi]

Courky, thanks a bunch! That makes everything pretty clear, and I can agree with (I think) all of what you said. You are very helpful.

Mackay, I actually agree with you about the "sleeping" thing (somewhere in Corinthians? 15 maybe?), I just didn't want to bring it up in case you disagreed. And I did misinterpret that passage, my apologies.

About the immaculate conception, meh. That doesn't matter to me. I'm not sure what the Bible says about Mary's sin or lack thereof, but we can save that for another day.

I still, at the moment, have one question unanswered. What about the Canon? I know that is some collection of writings by 'others' that were supposedly "cut out of the Bible." What's up with that?

[The Cruciverbalist]

I think you're talking about the Apocrypha. Canon means pretty much the opposite, I believe.
_________________
"Who slipped th'surly bonds an' kinged you the linguary?"

[Jedo the Jedi]

Apocrypha is probably right. They both have to do with Catholicism though, right?

[jesus_saves]

Man, i was totally going to type out a response to this thread when I got back, (ie now) but i ve been beaten to it (and nicely done by courk (and mackay)! )

and I don't know much about the Apocrypha, except that the books were excluded, in part because they werent a part of the Jewish canon that comprises the old testament.
_________________
³⁸ For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
³⁹ Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord

~Romans 8:38-39

[Courk]

According to dictionary.com, the apocryphal books of the Bible are:

Tobit
Judith
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
Wisdom of Solomon
Ecclesiasticus
Baruch

Other than that, I know nothing about them. The last time I studied the Old Testament was sixth grade. I do vaguely remember something about them being carefully considered.

Random tidbit of info for those that don't know: When the Nicene Creed says "catholic" it means universal. It's been a few years since I learned that and I still find it pretty cool.

[Sessie]

[Jedo the Jedi]

Sorry about the way that was answered. Later I realized how it was worded and that I should have made it seem like my belief. As for the reason why I'm asking, it's because I want to know the truth about it. I have all these thoughts about it that I want to make sure are right so that when I'm arguing, I can be speaking knowledgeably about the subject.

[Sessie]

'Tis quite all right...I'm glad we cleared that up. Just out of curiosity, what religion are you?
_________________
"I have an everyday religion that works for me: love yourself first, and everything else falls into line." --Lucille Ball

[mudbuck]

*Opens mouth* *closes mouth and thinks again* *backs away* Even though I participate in the Catholic religion, not on my own will, I think what I have to say would rather upset everyone.
_________________
1000oclock.com

[Sessie]

psst...PM me, mudbuck...I'm interested
_________________
"I have an everyday religion that works for me: love yourself first, and everything else falls into line." --Lucille Ball

[Mackay]

what Sessie said

[The Ragin' South Asian]

just post whatever you have to say. upsetting people is what the gl is all about.

[mudbuck]

Mary, to the Catholic religion, is often referred to as the mother of God and is said to be born without sin. This, supposedly, makes her of the saint rank, since it was a "miracle" that she could conceive the son of God. Apparently, protestants refused to worship her either that they did not respect the saints or that they did not tolerate worshiping a woman at the time.

In topic with that last statement, the Catholic church takes much of the early Old Testament as figurative, and not literal, as opposed to many protestant beliefs. It is hilarious that Protestants changed their beliefs to believe in something that the original Church made up.

The system (Priest, Bishop, Deacon, Cardinal, Pope) is a way for the Catholic church to organize their beliefs. Though, this is not very consistant with the religion. The five levels represent differating powers over different ranges. This prevents Catholicism from being a religion based around one's gifts and talents, which Pope John Paul II taught, and more of a centralized network. The priests seem to agree with the decisions that the Pope makes, though there is not much choice. Then again, all of them fail to realize that they can only act as councelors to the people, and not enforcers.

In confession, the priest actually serves as a shell which God may speak through. The Church figures that if the person is willing to count his sins by name, then he can be forgiven for all sins. This sounds a bit cultish. Moving right along!

Let me trail off for a bit. I disagree with many of the church's teachings. They often overpower the innocent outsiders, which I have learned becomes really irritating to me personally. Christians, not just Catholics, seem to believe that they are top of the world and their word is undeniable fact. Though, there is one moral that really bites the dust, and that is "do not put God to the test." The more one questions this principle, the more it sounds as if it came from the church and not from God's word. Simply put, the church made this to prevent mass exoduses of people from abandoning the religion. Since it is considered a very evil sin to put God to the test, even sometimes unforgivable, many avoid to even falter. However, if one explores deep enough into logic against God, they can find reasons that they are secure about and even more questions that quake at the Church's roots. (I will not share any of mine right here and now. Ask me and I might.) This is common in many religions, where the followers fear that falling out would reflect bad on their karma if they find nothing, even though the purpose of falling out is to disprove the very supernatural system of morals that is holding you back.
_________________
1000oclock.com

[Mackay]

Well said!

I am among the first to admit that the attitude of... shall we say, the majority of Christians? Many, at least? ...leaves a lot to be desired. Of course I don't agree with everything you just said, but I'm posting to register my non-upset-ness.

Questioning one's own faith is vital to developing that faith, whatever it may be.

[extro...]

[mudbuck]

[extro...]

[GH]

[Courk]

If it makes you feel any better, I don't even know when to sit, stand, or kneel. I just wait and do what everyone else is doing. I still don't know all of the words to the Nicene Creed (even after 13 years of school). And that part nearish the beginning - the part about "Forgive me my brothers and sisters, for I have sinned..." yeah, after that I kinda mumble along. And I did once talk into the priest's part of the Lord's Prayer. That was kinda funny. "...and deliver us from evil... Deliver us, Lord, from- oops."

[worm]