The Grey Labyrinth is a collection of puzzles, riddles, mind games, paradoxes and other intellectually challenging diversions. Related topics: puzzle games, logic puzzles, lateral thinking puzzles, philosophy, mind benders, brain teasers, word problems, conundrums, 3d puzzles, spatial reasoning, intelligence tests, mathematical diversions, paradoxes, physics problems, reasoning, math, science.

Icarus · Daedalian Member

dave10000 - thanks - I think it was Star Trek.

I'll leave you with one last thought - Identical Twins - not to be confused with Fraternal Twins.

In the case of Identical Twins, a single egg splits in two after it has already set the DNA and genetic code. By all that science could describe, these two are the same. Yet we know from our own experinces with twins - they each have a mind of their own. They are not the same.

But go back to the intent of the phrasing of the puzzle - Assuming the aliens can build anything you can describe, and that you have the combined resources of all of Earth, could you theoretically describe your world well enough for you to survive on their world? Well enough that you couldn't tell the difference?

How well enough is well enough you couldn't tell the difference ? If you're only going to get a five minute glimpse of their world - then this is easy enough to pull off. Are you expected to believe that you will be allowed to simply go up to everything and perform an autopsy - oh look here, there are two livers, not just one.

How exact do you have to be so that you couldn't tell the difference is directly proportionate to how much time you will be allowed to examine everyting. The argument never touches upon that topic - If you only had 5 minutes, it's very easy to fool the human senses long enough to make you think nothing was different. You don't have the time to examine everything to the nth degree.

Icarus · Daedalian Member

dave10000 - thanks - I think it was Star Trek.

I'll leave you with one last thought - Identical Twins - not to be confused with Fraternal Twins.

In the case of Identical Twins, a single egg splits in two after it has already set the DNA and genetic code. By all that science could describe, these two are the same. Yet we know from our own experinces with twins - they each have a mind of their own. They are not the same.

But go back to the intent of the phrasing of the puzzle - Assuming the aliens can build anything you can describe, and that you have the combined resources of all of Earth, could you theoretically describe your world well enough for you to survive on their world? Well enough that you couldn't tell the difference?

How well enough is well enough you couldn't tell the difference ? If you're only going to get a five minute glimpse of their world - then this is easy enough to pull off. Are you expected to believe that you will be allowed to simply go up to everything and perform an autopsy - oh look here, there are two livers, not just one.

How exact do you have to be so that you couldn't tell the difference is directly proportionate to how much time you will be allowed to examine everyting. The argument never touches upon that topic - If you only had 5 minutes, it's very easy to fool the human senses long enough to make you think nothing was different. You don't have the time to examine everything to the nth degree.

Vanyo · Daedalian Member

Loki · Daedalian Member

Don't go poking them with cake knives. They don't react well to that.

Ghost Post · Icarian Member

I understand now the variable that I had overlooked in the puzzle. It is enough that the person being asked the question be fooled into thinking that the created world is their own. Vanyo can't tell the difference between two humans of this planet...

(Joke Vanyo! Please take it as such!)

You ask if I consider the word "banana" as an appropriate response to "hello". Well, I as a being with consciousness see it as possibly appropriate, and possibly not so. With the amazing complexity of language I can perfectly well understand when it is and when it isn't. Does this now mean that I can reproduce it? That I can reproduce anything that can match myself in my capacity for understanding the nuances that deem this response as appropriate or not?

No. And it is not just a question of accumulation of data either.

Also, I see no contradiction when I claim that it exists yet I have no test to prove it's existence. The burden of proof rests on the doubter.

But that's a cop-out. I rest on the masses to prove that consciousness exists. I rest on the fact that I can deduce, infer, reason and even simply beleive. All of this makes me human, and I could tell the difference if I were among aliens.

Ghost Post · Icarian Member

OcularGold · Daedalian Member

extro - just my opinion, but i think this thread has gone to hell and aint comin back.

Ryoushi · Daedalian Member

Why don't we just lie to them?

Ghost Post · Icarian Member

It ain't there yet... Almost, though.

dave10000 · Tinhorn

mwf · Daedalian Member

Assuming the you could send the aliens all the information about are world right down to the last molecule. With that would be information about the DNA of everything living. With that info the aliens should be able to construct any enviroment they wish for us to see. NOT!!!

There is one thing that we could not give them. It goes back to the question of nature vs nurture. We could give them all the information about nature. The question is, how much of what animals humans included is only learned by intraction with others things and lifeforms around us? The aliens could create animals and humans from the DNA information, but would they act the same as ones raised here on earth?

Vanyo · Daedalian Member

That's actually a very good point. While "nature" is encapsulated in each individuals genes, "nurture", for humans at least, and in subtle ways perhaps for other animals (not really plants), is a continuous unbroken chain from prehistoric times. They might be able to create humans from molecule-by-molecule descriptions of zygotes, but raising them with a sense of earth culture would be a different matter.

But it was never clear what the puzzle is asking. Are they to create a complete earth with all the living things on this earth, or a small menagerie - a home away from home - a well designed zoo for humans.

dave10000 · Tinhorn

Ghost Post · Icarian Member

Let's take a different perspective: Switch the situation, imagine we have solved
petty problems like communication and transportation over great (universe-wise)
distances and all related technology obstacles (which implies 'some' advances in
science as well). Now, we contact another intelligent life form and are
preparing to beam them over. We would like to make them as comfortable as possible.
Two questions arise:
a) Can we make environment in which they will survive once they
get here.
b) Can we make environment in which they will feel so much at home that
they will not be able to tell the difference.

I consider this 'inverted puzzle' to be in the same spirit as the original puzzle.

Borodog · Daedalian Member

Just for the record, static magnetic fields exert no force on stationary charged particles. An electron placed in a magnetic field will go nowhere, unless it is given an initial velocity, or the field is changing magnitude or direction.

F=-qv×B

That's about the only bit in this whole discussion that I give a crap about.

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Insert humorous sig here.

OcularGold · Daedalian Member

bah. guess i was wrong.

thanks boro n sorry vanyo.

Julie · Guest

I am looking for a puzzle where you have ABC 123 you have to connect abc to 123 without crossing the lines.

Athene · Daedalian Member

You can find that puzzle in here. The solution is here.

Philosopher · Guest

You wouldn't have to describe the whole world. Just your brain.