Calling all Math Gods

[firemeboy]

I was wondering if a few of you could brain storm for me? As you may know, I'm currently in a Ph. D. program at Utah State University. I'm looking into the possibility of getting a grant to develop, in my opinion, a way cool learning tool. Using HMD (Head Mounted Disply) technology, I'm going to create a version of the classic game of tanks, schorched earth, whatever you call it. Where you have two tanks that enter in velocity, angle of turret, etc. in an attempt to try to beat on each other. If you want a 12 page paper describing it in detail, let me know, but that is pretty much it in a nutshell. The big difference will be that you will see the tanks in 3D technology similar to this http://www.newhorizons.org/strategies/technology/shelton.htm but on a large grid of carpet laid on the floor.

First of all this will be a very fun game. But it will also be an education tool. Whether it's is used to teach number value to pre-schoolers (the higher the number, the farther the tank shoots), or the pythagorean Theorum, or even more complex ideas such as arc, gravity, etc, I'm hoping it will be a fun and educational system.

I've come up with 7 things that could be taught, but I'm sure there are many more, which is where you math gods come in. What else could be taught with this? If you're still not sure what I'm talking about, you can download the game here. http://www.classicgaming.com/scorch/

Anyway, here are my 8 ideas:
1-Number recognition/Value understanding - recognize different numbers have different values, etc.
2- Angle Force relationship - learning that the same force equals different difference depending on the angle of the barrell.
3- Pythagorean Theorem - Learning how to calcuate distances on an angle
4- striking targets on a different plane (I'm not sure what mathmatical formulas would be used here) A student would have to figure out the trajectory to hit somebody on a differnt level of elvation.
5- Adjusting for time (again, I'm not sure of the formual). You have to hit a moving target. This is the classic (train a is moving west at 50 mph, etc)
6- Adjusting for weight. In this game peopel would have larger and smaller bombs. They would need to change the force accordingly.
7- Adjusting for gravity - have a fight on the moon where gravity is differnt.

Can you think of any other formulas/concepts that would be easily demonstrated with this type of game?

[ZutAlors!]

I'm not exactly a math god, but here's some ideas:

(by the way, are you strictly interested in math? It look like some of your examples could be more properly classified as physics.

1. Vectors and vector components (force and velocity in x- y- and z-directions)
2. Vector addition (adding velocity of tank to velocity of projectile, or adding wind?).
3. Differentiation (acceleration = (d/dt)velocity; velocity = (d/dt)position)
4. Perhaps integration from the same concept? [does this game offer self-propelled projectiles? changing mass = complicated integration to find total range]
5. Trignometry (calculating x- y- and z- velocities).
6. Commutative/ associative laws in formulas.
7. Proportionality in formulas.
8. Scaling and powers (double projectile size = 4X area = 8X volume or weight).
9. Maximization/optimization of range.
10. Concepts of constants and variables, and algebraic formulas.
11. Cartesian coordinates vs. cylindrical coordinates.
12. Maybe calculation of circular areas (to find area within projectile range? or area viewable at one time? or blast area?)
13. Perspective? Scale? Parallel lines?

[This message has been edited by ZutAlors! (edited 01-23-2004 12:56 PM).]

[Death Mage]

Wind resistance, aerodynamics, and calculating blast radius to determine how much damage to do to a cluster of tanks (two tanks, one weakened, where to place to bomb to maximize effect.. blow up one and damage the second as much as possible).

Stuff like that.

[Highest Prime]

Scorched Earth! Yes!

I easily spent more hours in college playing Scorched Earth than I did preparing and defending my thesis. Wasn't even close. And you should have seen some of the Scorched Earth drinking games we managed to come up with.

I miss those days.

[firemeboy]

I just downloaded the game and can't get it to work.

So do you think it would be cool in a HMD type environment?

[Legion]

Actually, I'm particularly interested in the use of games as a learning tool. So I would very much like to see the full paper, and any others you might have in electronic format. Have you met no resisitance due to the 'violent' nature of the game? Can you mail me the paper please? I promise to reference it if ever I use it.

[firemeboy]

You bet... I assume your e-mail is in your profile?


Yes, I'm sure there will be some problems about the violent nature. There could be two versions, one where students shot at each other, the last one standing obviously wins. Or to have some 'neutral' target (where no people, animals, or tofu) are damaged. You could use a story line such as you are slinging supplies to a stranded vegetarian hiker who owns a puppy or something peaceful and loving like that.

I'll send you the paper now.

[firemeboy]

You don't have e-mail in the profile, if you want to post it or send it to me I will send the paper along.

[Legion]

Oh, sorry bout that. It's done now.

[firemeboy]

Sent.

[Martin_levi3935]

Good luck because that sounds like a lot of work but hopefully it will be worth it . This is just saying goodluck ok.

[CrystyB]

Any news on this, fmb? (I also loved Scorched Earth )

[i_h8_evil_stuff]

Bump: Math question, didn't want to start a new thread.

If anyone wants to kill their computers, please feel free to help.
What is ((98!)!)! ?
I got as far as 98! = 9.4268904488832477456261857430572*10^153, but Maple seems to be taking a while on that next one. I am just looking for an approximation, so x.x*10^x should be fine.
_________________
Space for sale. PM i_h8_evil_stuff for details.

[CB]

For starters, (98!)! which is a whole lot more than (10^153)! would have at the very least 1.6*10^154 digits. You know, like there aren't enough atoms in the known Universe to match the number of digits of that number... So how would we represent it (in any form!) in our computers?

Taking the factorial of that (which is what you asked for) would be utterly useless, not to mention very likely impossible.

[extro...]

Or, how would we represent it here in a post answering the question? It's (98!)! - leave it at that.

BTW, why do you ask? I mean, why 98?

[extro...]

Oh ... I missed the third !. Forget about it.

[i_h8_evil_stuff]

Well, my Calculus T.A. emailed me and said:

[CB]

silly me... I had forgotten Stirling's Formula: n! ~= (n/e)^n sqrt(2n)

_(link)(link)_

So this gives us 98!! >(~=) 10 ^ ( 1.4474 E+156 ), and finally
98!!! >(~=) 10 ^ [ 10 ^ ( 1.4474 E+156 ) ] >(~=) 10 ^ 10 ^ 10 ^ 156.

[Mr Stoofer]

On an unrelated topic, I would really appreciate some help from a math god with this problem.

[Zag]

I haven't really hung out in this forum in the past, so I'm just getting caught up.

Your Augmented Reality sounds really cool! So the user wears some magic classes that are mostly transparent but can overlay with computer generated stuff, right? Well, by Gosh, do the right thing and build this.

REAL X-RAY SPECS! Normally these are just transparent glasses. When you touch a button by your ear, they show whomever you were looking at as if they have no clothes on. Real-time calculation is done to show them in the correct positions, as if their clothes had suddenly become transparent.

Oh, and if you press the button twice, you just see them as skeletons. Way less fun, but possibly more educational (depending, of course, on what subject you are trying to teach).

[Amb]

Download and play Pocket Tanks (Bitwise)

Thats a good modern equivalent


Scorched Earth could teach economics. Save up for the big weapons to do well.