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worm
unregistered
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 Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: 321 |
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| wordcross wrote: |
| That question would work even if it were just Mars. |
couldn't you just go to the dark side of the moon? (even the light side would probably be tough to tell exactly.) |
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wordcross
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:35 am Post subject: 322 |
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yeah, any non-earth location would have the same problem.
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject: 323 |
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Why are Muslims not offended by this: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/27/berlin.opera.ap/index.html ?
An opera is being cancelled because of fears it might offend Muslims. Not out of respect, but out of fear. Shouldn't Muslims be up in arms at the notion that there is anything to fear?
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| Harms defended her decision, which she described as "weighing artistic freedom and freedom of a theater ... against the question of security for people's lives." |
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wordcross
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: 324 |
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your guess is as good as mine, extro. It seems like this would be worse than the Pope's faux pas, for all that it's fictional.
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: 325 |
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In a recent post I wanted the exact phrase for a fallacy. I went to google and searched "beat wife fallacy." I found the phrase I wanted: "Are you still beating your wife?"
The fourth link was one explaining that it is a fallacy that Islam advocates wife beating (I'd never heard of that before following this link). I was underwhelmed by the arguments.
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| The following videos talks about the rules behind hitting your wife. As the video will show, the Islamic method does not result in the wife feeling any pain whatsoever. This is done as a last resort and done for a psychological effect, so that the female may ponder over what she might have done wrong. Therefore, it is a harmless way of rebuking ones wife. There is no physical pain involved, but rather emotional pain. Please watch it in order |
http://exposingdtruth.wordpress.com/2007/05/09/wife-beating/
The third video makes me wonder if I'm being duped. I followed some of the links though and they appear real. Is this mockery, or reality?
And if reality, is it extreme?
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:48 pm Post subject: 326 |
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I guess I'll just make my own conclusions and assume I'm right. KK five by five in the pipe. Normal day.
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wordcross
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: 327 |
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sorry, I don't always check the SAC forum anymore, so i missed your question previously.
As per the wife "beating" thing, it's a rather stupid way to present it to say "it's not meant to be physical, just emotional."
As far as I know, the rules in Islam regarding striking your spouse are not much different than laws in the U.S. There's a fine line between slapping someone once to get them to shut-up-and-snap-out-of-it and being physically violent.
Islam doesn't advocate using physical (or psychological/emotional) harm as a means toward solving problems, but it would be almost ridiculous to punish someone for domestic abuse if it's one slap that doesn't even leave a mark. They should be encouraged not to, of course.
Extremists, of course, tend toward far too literal a reading and so you get groups like the Taliban that think it's okay to beat women within an inch of their lives to make them "behave" It's sick and twisted, and that's all there is to it.
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: 328 |
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I just finished watching this controversial film: Fitna.
It's quite graphic, so I would not recommend it for the faint-hearted.
Of course it's very one-sided and has been roundly condemned but all without analysis.
It purports to be a call for Muslims to rise up against the fundamentalists, but it seems to be just Islam bashing.
Are the texts quoted correctly translated?
Are the texts really to be adhered to by good Muslims?
How offensive this movie?
Do you have an urge to seek revenge? Not that you would actually carry it out. I know that I have strong feelings against "the British" after reading Irish history, but it's all just emotion and rapidly fades when reason prevails. I just wondered if you, as a moderate Muslim, have such feelings. |
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wordcross
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: 329 |
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I watched the video before they pulled it from liveleak, so i'll give you a response later on today, hopefully.
For anyone interested, the video is still available on googlevideo:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3369102968312745410
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wordcross
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: 330 |
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Alrighty, here we go. This is pretty much in the order that the video showed everything. I've quoted the verses from the Qur'an as the video quoted them, then followed that with the translation from the Qur'an I have (Tajweed Qur'an with meaning translation in English by Abdyllah Yusuf Ali) as well as come context and in some cases a bit of commentary.
I've also pulled some significant quotes from the film as well so i can talk about them.
Just as a note, When I talk about the point of view of Islam, I'm not necessarily trying to convince you of the rationale so much as explain the point of view that makes others believe a certain way. If I say "you" it's not a direct reference to you yourself, just a blanket 2nd person "you."
Please take no offense at my statements. I don't think there's anything offensive, per se, but in any case none of it is meant to give offense.
I'm sure that there is a lot of this you already know, some of it you don't, and I mean no slight to your intelligence in any case
Let's get started then 
Surah 8, verse 60
| Quote: |
Prepare for them whatever force and cavalry ye are able of gathering
to strike terror
to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies, of Allah and your enemies. |
56) They are those with whom thou didst make a covenant, but they break their covenant every time, and they have not the fear (of God)
57) If ye gain the mastery over them in war, desperse, with them, those who follow them, that they may remember
58) If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.
59) Let not the Unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the Godly): they will never frustrate (them)
60) Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
61) But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is the One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
62) Should they intend to Deceive thee, - verily Allah sufficeth thee: He it is that hath strengthened thee with his aid and with (the company of) the Believers.
63) And (moreover) He hath put affection between their hearts: not if thou hadst spent all that is in the earth, couldst thou have produced that affection, but Allah hath done it: for He is Exalted in might, Wise.
Surah 4, verse 56:
| Quote: |
Those who have disbelieved our signs, we shall roast them in fire
whenever their skins are cooked to a turn, we shall substitute new skins for them
that they may feel the punishment: verily Allah is sublime and wise. |
56) Those who reject Our signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the Penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
Here I might point out the translation as "reject" rather than "disbelieve." The verse is obviously talking about Hell, so there's no reason for it not to sound horrible and torturous.
Little Girl Basmallah:
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"[Jews] are apes and pigs
Allah said so in the Qur'an" |
This, unfortunately, reflects the sort of thing that many children are taught in places like Palestine. It has no real basis in the text, but parents/teachers will say that it says so in the Qur'an because that sort of thing lends it the weight necessary for the children to believe it. The children then grow up believing it and propagating it. It's sad, and only shows how much work needs to be done to educate both Muslims and non-Muslims about what Islam really says.
Surah 47, verse 4:
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Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers,
smite at their necks and when he have cause a bloodbath among them
bind a bond firmly on them |
"4) Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), Smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself): but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah, - He will never let their deeds be lost."
This refers only to times of war, and "smite at their necks" is only meant as a metaphor for fighting hard. It would be hard to bind them and then either be generous or ransom them if they were headless.
Surah 4, verse 89:
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They but wish that ye should reject faith
as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they,
so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah.
But if they turn renegades, seize them and kill them wherever ye find them
and take no friends or helpers from their ranks |
"88) Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
89) They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): but take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
90) Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)
91) Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you or give you no (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever you get them: in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them."
So here it is talking only about Hypocrites (who claim to follow Islam but then turn away from it when it is convenient or when they are not around other Muslims), and only if they are fighting against Muslims.
| Quote: |
| "Islam is a sacred religion, The best religion there is. If someone converts to Christianity, he deserves the death penalty." |
This is a misconception that many Muslims have been led to believe. While there is evidence (I don't recall if it is in the Qur'an or in the sayings of Muhammad), it is not nearly as strong a statement as it is often used for. As I understand it, if someone decides to convert from Islam to another religion, then he or she will be encouraged (verbally) to reconsider. If they will not, then they will be encouraged to keep it private. If they will not, they will be encouraged to keep it as a personal choice (i.e. not to exhort others to do the same). If they will not, then it starts to get more serious. Killing them is a last resort only if they start trying to do things like organize anti-Islam movements or subvert others or spread seditious things about Islam and resist all efforts to stop them from doing so.
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| "Islam is (more) superior than the Jews, than the Christians, Than the Buddhists, than the Hindus, The only Deen (law) that Allah accepts is Al-Islam. And whoever seeks any other Deen (law) apart from Islam, will never be accepted." |
I realize that, probably especially in Europe, there is a large movement towards the idea that all religions are equal and therefore all are equally acceptable, so long as a person's intentions and actions are generally good. It's a nice idea, and certainly attractive, but imo rather silly. If religions are all equally fine, then why are there restrictions in one that are not in another. How is that fair in any way? When we come to the day of judgment, how will God judge us if some of us are doing things that others are not? Either God has a single set of rules and will judge everyone accordingly, or there is no fairness to be had. If you believe that God has a single set of rules, then what are they? If you also believe that all religions are equally fine, then the rules that God has set must be very general, to the point of "be good" and therefore religious observances are pretty pointless. There is no reason for me to pray 5 times a day, or for a Catholic to go to Mass, or for Jew to celebrate Hannukah. If the criteria is "act as you believe" then there is hardly any way to say that God has rules at all, since "act as you believe" is to do whatever you mind tells you is right, which is different for everyone.
So then if you believe that there is some specific set of rules, and you believe that Islam is that set of rules, then why should you believe that anything else will be accepted?
Surah 8, verse 39:
| Quote: |
Fight them until there is no dissension
and the religion is entirely Allah's |
30) Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of they home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans, but the best of planers is Allah.
31) When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients."
32) Remember how they said: "O Allah! If this is indeed the Truth from Thee, rain down on us a shower of stones from the sky, or send us a grievous Penalty."
33) But Allah was not going to send them a Penalty whilst thou wast amongst them; nor was He going to send it whilst they could ask for pardon.
34) But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the Sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand.
35) Their prayer at the House (of God) is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands: (its only answer can be), "Taste ye the Penalty because ye blasphemed."
36) The Unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (men) from the path of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have (only) regrets and sighs; at length they will be overcome: and the Unbelievers will be gathered together to Hell
37) In order that Allah may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, on on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost.
38) Say to the Unbelievers if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them.)
39) And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
40) If they refuse, be sure that Allah is your Protector - The Best to protect And the Best to help.
A series of quotes from the video:
| Quote: |
| Islam is a religion that wants to rule the world. It has done so before and eventually will rule it again. |
| Ahmadinejad wrote: |
| The message of the (Islamic) Revolution is global, and is not restricted to a specific place or time. Have no doubt... Allah willing, Islam will conquer what? It will conquer all the mountain tops of the world. |
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| We have ruled the world before, and by Allah, the day will come when we will rule the entire world again! The day will come when we will rule America. The day will come when we will rule Britain and the entire world! |
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| Allah commanded us to spread this religion worldwide. |
| Quote: |
| You will take over USA/UK/Europe/Egypt, We trust in Allah |
[not sure why Egypt is included here]
So, some of these are probably meant with a violent concept in mind, but the overall idea is not necessarily violent or oppressive. The way it is *supposed* (Islamically) to sound is that Islam will spread over the whole world because it is the truth and people will recognize that, accept it, follow it, and therefore the majority will be for Islam as a way of life. A peaceful spread as opposed to a violent imposition. As much as Ahmadinejad likes to spout anti-western/anti-Israeli propaganda, I didn't find his quote to sound sinister in any way. It is the dream of Muslims that one day Islam will regain the light and glory it once had, which could be said of most groups across the world of their own views regarding themselves.
So the next part of the video is where I have trouble believing that it's meant as a message to Muslims to protest the radical elements. It seems to want to equate Islam and Muslims in general with bad things for the Netherlands/Europe/the West.
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| The Netherlands under the spell of Islam: The mosque will be part of the system of the government in Holland. |
Agreeably a rather startling and unsavory idea, and also rather unlikely.
As for the chart showing the number of Muslims in Netherlands/Europe, I fail to see the logical point (although by this point in the video it seems obvious what they hope the viewer will be thinking).
Re: Honor Killings:
This is very largely a cultural thing in Wahhabism (Saudi Arabia), Taliban Afghanistan, and some very tribal/ultra-right-wing areas of Northern Pakistan. It exists elsewhere too, but those are the big ones. It is almost completely without basis. There are laws about adultery and fornication, but even when it gets to the point where it is said they should be killed (again, one of those "last resort" deals), it is by no means intended to be an "honor" killing or even to be carried out by the family.
| Quote: |
| They should denounce political parties and worldly concepts like liberalism, democracy, and socialism and everything associated with it and originated from the human brain |
Muslims believe Islam to be a complete and all-encompassing way of life. It provides rules and laws from the level of government to the level of the individual. Therefore systems and laws other than Islam are not going to be up to par. How can one compare a system designed by God with one designed by Man? This is not to say that there is no overlap, or even that there is not significant overlap, only that man-made systems will be inferior and so should not be the basis for society. I disagree with the way the quote was worded with "everything associated with it" but otherwise the idea has basis.
| Quote: |
| We denounce freedom of speech because we do not believe in democracy: Islam is our alternative. |
Well, this is rather sticky. Technically, "freedom of speech" the way that the West views it is too lax by Islamic standards. There are certain things that should not be said, and in Islam things like religious sedition are not allowed, but it is not to say that expression should be suppressed in general. So I supposed that you could say we don't believe in freedom of speech in the same way that the West does. it's not "because" we don't believe in Democracy. We just happen to have a different emphasis of values. Again, Islam and Democracy are not completely compatible, but neither are they completely incompatible.
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| School closes on Muslim Holidays. |
so? I imagine it closes on Christian Holidays too, possibly even Jewish holidays. If it's *just* Muslim holidays, then i would agree that it's unfair in Holland, but otherwise it's a silly complaint.
| Quote: |
| Jihad-lessons in elementary school |
This is one of three things.
One, they're talking about schools in the Middle East or Pakistan or some such that, in addition to teaching children the basics, inundate them with anti-Western ideas and teach them to fight/shoot weapons, hate Jews, or what have you. They exist, they're horrible, and this headline is fine. I think that having it stand alone in this video, however, would lead the viewer to think of elementary schools in The Netherlands, though.
Two, There are "Islamic" elementary schools in The Netherlands where they do the same as above, teaching children anti western ideology and hate and violence etc. Also an acceptable headline if such is the case, but i find it unlikely.
Three, students are being taught what Jihad is, and either why it is bad, or from a more Islamically correct standpoint, what it really is and why violence is not the answer. If this is the case, then the headline by itself leads the viewer to a rather false interpretation and conclusion.
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| Free trip to Mecca through Islamic school |
Again, so? If a Christian school offered free trips to the Vatican, would that make headlines?
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| Ankara wants Turkish in classrooms here |
Teaching Turkish to students is not a bad thing. The more languages the better, and Middle Eastern Languages would be great for purposes of better communication. If he wants classes to be taught in Turkish, though, that's rather absurd.
Then the final roll before the credits, a message from the creator of the video:
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| For it is not up to me but to Muslims themselves to tear out the hateful verses from the Qur'an |
None of the ones mentioned are specifically hateful. Some of them espouse violent action, but only against either violence or oppression. And who decides what parts are good and bad? If the Qur'an is the word of Allah, then why would we take only parts of it?
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| Muslims want you to make way for Islam, but Islam does not make way for you. |
Well, that's pretty much right. If Islam made way for you, it wouldn't be much of a test of faith, now would it? Islam does not expect anything from a believer that will make life hard for him, but it does expect some degree of effort.
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| The government insists that you respect Islam, but Islam has no respect for you. |
Um... what?
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| Islam wants to rule, submit, and seeks to destroy our western civilization. |
"Submit" is probably a poor translation into English from whatever language it was in originally (Dutch?). "Destroy" is far too strong a word. Muslims believe that Islam is superior, and would like for it to be used all over the world, but, extremists aside, not through the "Destruction" of the West.
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In 1945, Nazism was defeated in Europe
In 1989, communism was defeated in Europe
Now, the Islamic ideology has to be defeated. |
So Communism and Islam are like Nazism? Does Godwin's Law apply here?
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Last edited by wordcross on Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wordcross
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: 331 |
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So to quickly answer your actual questions:
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| Are the texts quoted correctly translated? |
For the most part, yes, but they seem to have chosen whatever translation would work best for their end, and taken most of them out of context.
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| Are the texts really to be adhered to by good Muslims? |
Yes, though a literal reading is not always (nor probably even usually) the correct interpretation. There are people who study the language of the Qur'an and the correct interpretations of the text, and so it's always best to refer to the interpretation, even in Arabic, so as not to mis-interpret something. There are still different opinions, even among scholars, but there should at least be an effort for proper understanding.
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| How offensive [is] this movie? |
I'd say it's pretty offensive. the thing that annoyed me the most was the implication that a rise in the population of Muslims in a country/region/etc. would turn that place into an extremist hotbed of violence and hatred. If it is, in truth, a call for Muslims to rise up against fundamentalism, then it has a funny way of appealing to those Muslims.
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| Do you have an urge to seek revenge? Not that you would actually carry it out. I know that I have strong feelings against "the British" after reading Irish history, but it's all just emotion and rapidly fades when reason prevails. I just wondered if you, as a moderate Muslim, have such feelings. |
Nah, mostly I'm just annoyed, and I wish that people (both Muslim and non-Muslim) would get a clue.
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: 332 |
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Thank you very much wordcross, for your very informative post.
It was difficult to find anything reasoned about this on the net, so your response has saved me many hours reading junk.
In particular, getting the quotes in context was most helpful.
It seems from what you said that many Muslims are mis-informed about Islam.
I also hear about various Imams and clerics that preach violence, using the Qur'an to back them up.
Is there a way to decide that someone's interpretation of the Qur'an is incorrect?
Is there a way to sanction such people, within Islam, for preaching lies?
Do you need any formal training to preach Islam? |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: 333 |
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Word: I just started reading your main post from Saturday. I can not tell you how much I appreciate that you have put those quotes in perspective (in re, the text around them in the Qu'ran).
Out of curiosity (if I go off base I'm just speculating, not trying to offend. If I do, say so and I'll apologize), when I read the Surah 4, verse 56 (the one you quoted) this is how I thought of it before you said anything:
I read 'Those who have disbelieved our signs' as 'those who are heathens/unfaithful/etc'. I also thought of 'we' as the prophet using 'we' because he is speaking with God's voice. My feelings in this regard were strengthened when the verse went on to describe horrible punishments. It seems to me that this verse is about what will be done to the unfaithful by the hosts of God in the afterlife. Am I smoking crack?
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Poisonium
annoyed by the old
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: 334 |
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What's so interesting about Islam? I bet that everyone has got something interesting to tell, but I don't see why Islam is anymore interesting than, say, Curling or Magic tricks. Or how life is a grown up.
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I tried apt-get install lifebut it only returned E: Couldn't find package life |
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wordcross
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: 335 |
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| Jack_Ian wrote: |
| It seems from what you said that many Muslims are mis-informed about Islam. |
It varies, but I think that most Muslims are in some way misinformed about something. Islam has become a very culturally influenced religion, but since it has been a gradual process, there are many things that people take for granted as being part of Islam when in fact they aren't. Often it's just small stuff, but, in regard to your next statement/question:
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| I also hear about various Imams and clerics that preach violence, using the Qur'an to back them up. |
there is also quite a bit of misinformation out there as well. Sometimes the people with influence are simply themselves misinformed and take their own ideas to extremes. Other times there is a deliberate agenda that is best served by using quotes out of context. People who are called "Imams" or "Muftis" or such are not always trained in Islamic studies. Sometimes they just happen to be someone who sounds knowledgeable and becomes popular, then is given the title of "Imam" as a manner of respect for his leadership skills. Of course, there are the people who *are* trained in Islamic studies and who still espouse radical ideas.
In reality, most people who are trained in Islamic studies by recognized bodies and schools/universities tend to be far more moderate and logical. They just don't often gain the sort of popularity as the radical ones because they're not appealing to strong emotions nearly as much as the radical ones.
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| Is there a way to decide that someone's interpretation of the Qur'an is incorrect? |
Since the prophet Muhammad was alive while the Qur'an was being revealed, he was the one who gave interpretation to the Qur'an. This interpretation is part of his teachings, or "Sunnah". Islamic jurisprudence is based on finding evidence from the Qur'an and Sunnah not just to support an opinion but to formulate the opinion in the first place, and also in making sure that there is not other evidence that would supercede it or cause a conflict. There is a body of text the included the Qur'an, the Sunnah, and also some sayings and actions of the apostles of Muhammad. This body of text is the only legal basis for Islamic law. Sometimes, if there is not explicit text about a certain subject, there are Islamic scholars who say that taking text from the following generation and sometimes even the generation after that is acceptable, but only in the absence of evidence from the main body of texts.
One must be fully trained in all of these texts to be able to make "fatwas" or rulings about actions or new ideas. There is room for differing interpretations, but only if both are clearly based in evidence from the texts.
The problem is that there are those who think that just because they've completed such studies it makes them able to issue fatwas based on their own opinions or without researching the texts. That is why you get things like fatwas calling for the death of Salman Rushdie or what have you. It is the result of an incomplete and variously influenced culture of rule-making.
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| Is there a way to sanction such people, within Islam, for preaching lies? |
I don't know the specifics, but I know that preaching seditious ideas is illegal within an Islamic state. It depends, I imagine, on whether the person lies deliberately with some purpose in mind or whether they are simply misinformed, and also whether or not they stop when they are corrected.
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| Do you need any formal training to preach Islam? |
depends on what you mean by "preach". If you mean preach like the Imams and such, then it would make sense and should be the case that they have formal training. They don't always, but they should.
If you mean more like telling others about Islam and answering questions about it like I am, then no, you don't need formal training. Muslims are all encouraged to spread Islam, whether they know just one thing or know more than anyone else. They're not supposed to make things up, so if someone asks a question they don't know the answer to, they should admit they don't know and either offer to find out for them, or direct them to someone who would know (such as the local mosque). I haven't had any formal training, although I've had a fair amount of exposure to seminars and literature about Islamic concepts and rules.
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wordcross
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject: 336 |
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| Samadhi wrote: |
Out of curiosity (if I go off base I'm just speculating, not trying to offend. If I do, say so and I'll apologize), when I read the Surah 4, verse 56 (the one you quoted) this is how I thought of it before you said anything:
I read 'Those who have disbelieved our signs' as 'those who are heathens/unfaithful/etc'. I also thought of 'we' as the prophet using 'we' because he is speaking with God's voice. My feelings in this regard were strengthened when the verse went on to describe horrible punishments. It seems to me that this verse is about what will be done to the unfaithful by the hosts of God in the afterlife. Am I smoking crack? |
"Those who reject Our signs" is a reference to people who have heard the message of Islam, realize it's significance, and still reject it. There is some gray area here as to whether or not present day Jews/Christians will be counted as those who reject the signs, since there is some debate as to whether or not it can be said they've received Islam in the proper fashion. So I don't know who gets specifically counted in that category. And yes, the "We" is the personal plural, meaning that God is the one speaking. It is a description of Hell in the afterlife.
Is that what you were looking for? I answered your question how I think you asked it, but I'm not sure
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wordcross
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: 337 |
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| Poisonium wrote: |
| What's so interesting about Islam? I bet that everyone has got something interesting to tell, but I don't see why Islam is anymore interesting than, say, Curling or Magic tricks. Or how life is a grown up. |
Depends on what you mean by interesting, and whether you mean "Is there anything interesting about it" or if you mean "What reason would a person have to find interest in Islam over some other form of belief"
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Poisonium
annoyed by the old
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: 338 |
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Why it's so interesting to ask questions about.
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wordcross
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: 339 |
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I'd say because a) a significant portion of the world population practices a religion that the rest of the world is largely ignorant about and b) it seems to inspire such rabid extremism worldwide without others understanding where it comes from.
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worm
unregistered
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:25 am Post subject: 340 |
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poisonium, i'm not sure whether you noticed or not, but there are also similar threads for Christianity and Atheism. i always thought the point of them was to give people a chance to ask questions about a belief system outside their own and hopefully clear up misconceptions.
is that a bad thing? |
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:20 am Post subject: 341 |
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(Sorry if these have been asked already, I just skimmed.)
I've read that Muhammad is the last prophet in the line of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the other prophets that people raised Jewish or Christian would be familiar with. What religion did Muhammad and his family consider themselves to be before he was visited, Christian, Jewish, something else?
(For example, Jesus and his apostles considered themselves to be a Jews. This makes it kind of awkward for the "orthodox" people who claim they worship as Apostle John (I think) originally taught, but they don't observe Passover. I'm prepared to bet money that all the apostles observed Passover pretty ... umm ... religiously.)
I have heard that Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam. Correct? According to historic texts -- that is, not only the Christian Bible -- he did claim to be the direct son of God, in a greater sense than "we are all God's children." Do Muslims believe that he didn't actually claim this (justifiable -- the historic texts are questionable), or do you think that your prophets occasionally get a little flaky, but the rest of what he had to say was OK? |
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wordcross
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: 342 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| I've read that Muhammad is the last prophet in the line of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and the other prophets that people raised Jewish or Christian would be familiar with. What religion did Muhammad and his family consider themselves to be before he was visited, Christian, Jewish, something else? |
The society in Mecca at the time of Muhammad was overwhelmingly pagan, and idols were a dime a dozen. Muhammad was raised in large part by the Bedouins, though, so he had a sort of outside perspective. He rejected the idea of idol worship and instead had what is often called "Abrahamic" faith i.e. Monotheism. It wasn't anything organized, and he didn't claim to be of any particular existing religion at the time or in the region, just that he didn't accept polytheism.
| Zag wrote: |
| I have heard that Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam. Correct? According to historic texts -- that is, not only the Christian Bible -- he did claim to be the direct son of God, in a greater sense than "we are all God's children." Do Muslims believe that he didn't actually claim this (justifiable -- the historic texts are questionable), or do you think that your prophets occasionally get a little flaky, but the rest of what he had to say was OK? |
In fact, Muslims believe that Jesus said just the opposite, that he is only human and that he feared that those who came after him would give him undeserved status as more than human and/or more than just a prophet of God.
Not sure what you mean by flaky. In regards to prophets in general, we believe that Prophets were sinless, but made mistakes because they were human.
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: 343 |
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Thanks. Good answers.
The 'flaky' comment would only have applied if you had answered the other way on the Jesus question. That is, if your faith accepted that he claimed to be the direct son of God, but rejected this aspect of his teachings while keeping the rest -- that would be assuming that he was a little flaky. But you didn't, so it's all good.
Your answers mean to me that Islam is, at least, self-consistant, which is not true of most fundamentalist Christian faiths.
How does your creation story/myth/parable/metaphor jibe with modern theories of the big bang, quantum mechanics, and evolution? Would a fundamentalist Muslim agree with your interpretation? |
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wordcross
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:07 am Post subject: 344 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| How does your creation story/myth/parable/metaphor jibe with modern theories of the big bang, quantum mechanics, and evolution? Would a fundamentalist Muslim agree with your interpretation? |
The Creation story in Islam is very close to the Judeo-Christian Creation with a couple of key differences (e.g. Eve wasn't made from Adam's Rib, she was made of clay like Adam was). Personally, I don't think there is any reason why the Creation story couldn't support the big bang. I don't know enough about what quantum mechanics says to even have an opinion on whether I think it jives with the Islamic view of the universe. Physics in general is perfectly acceptable and Islamists like to say that the Qur'an itself describes planetary motion, although I think that's a bit of a stretch.
As far as evolution, It depends. Personally I can see how Creation can be read as a metaphor for evolutionary theory, but most fundamentalist Muslims would likely disagree with me and take a more literal creationist viewpoint.
I certainly believe in natural selection and the general principles of evolution, and I think most Moderate Muslims would agree. I'm still uncertain on my belief in a literal creationism, so I suppose man *could* have come from apes, and life could have come from proteins and single-celled organisms, but I don't know. The evidence for evolutionist theory is pretty convincing, but imo not complete enough to "prove" things definitively. Call it grey area
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worm
unregistered
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: 345 |
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| wordcross wrote: |
| The evidence for evolutionist theory is pretty convincing, but imo not complete enough to "prove" things definitively. Call it grey area |
i sometimes remind my chemistry students that molecules don't have personality or motivation. it's often tempting for them to personify a molecule...e.g. "that structure wants electrons" or some other thing it "wants/needs". heck, i've been guilty of such statements, as it's easier to identify with molecules if you can personify them, but molecules don't have personalities. they don't think. their stability/properties can be predicted by theory.
i accept the evidence for the big bang and evolution. i'll even grant that the building blocks for life (amino acids/sugars) likely formed from the atmosphere/elements available on Earth or from meteorites hitting the Earth. i'm still questioning how these building blocks, unthinking molecules, became motivated to survive? how does this lead to even the simplest form of life.
this is certainly not a question directed just at Islam, but wordy's statement intrigued me. i feel like science focuses so much on the beginning of the universe and then jumps to the evolution of life. it's the in-between...how life started, how a collection of molecules could develop into "life"...this still seems very gray to me. |
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: 346 |
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| worm wrote: |
| it's the in-between...how life started, how a collection of molecules could develop into "life"...this still seems very gray to me. |
I don't have any issue with anyone who finds the hand of God in this step, but do realize that it is entirely unnecessary. Given that there is a way to organize carbon, oxygen, etc. atoms such that they have a technique for "reproduction" (that is, duplicating the structure), then there is some tiny chance that they arrive in that arrangement from parts. It doesn't matter how small that chance is, as long as it is not zero. Given billions of planets in billions of galaxies in an infinity of universes, then it is guaranteed to happen somewhere. In all the places that it didn't happen, there is no one there to discuss why it didn't.
I am more inclined to see the hand of God in the creation of physical laws such that such an arrangement of atoms can exist at all. Not that I'm inclined to see the hand of God anywhere. |
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:35 pm Post subject: 347 |
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Does Islam discriminate women?
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wordcross
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:28 am Post subject: 348 |
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Well, I imagine that depends on your definition of discriminate. My initial reaction is to say a resounding "No" but in Islam there is the idea that men and women are equal in the eyes of God, but at the same time made differently and therefore have different roles in society. That is not to say that there are things that only men can do and things that only women can do, just that in a general sense women are better at, say, child rearing, and men are physically stronger. Islam also recognizes that such generalities are just that, and so it doesn't set limitations on either gender. Islamically, women and men should be given equal treatment, equal opportunity, generally equality all around.
There are several places in the Qur'an and Sunnah where final authority is given to the man, but in most it is just a base upon which to fall back on, rather than a set-in-stone law. For example, it is said that a husband has final say in family affairs over his wife. That is not to say, however, that the man should not strive to discuss things with his wife, listen to her, have her make decisions and choices, etc. The "final say" is only meant to come in when there is a disagreement that cannot be reconciled, and even then the couple could ultimately decide that the woman's say should default be final instead.
Such "laws" in Islam have a tendency to be abused, though, and so you get things like women not being allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia, or being beaten for disobedience, though such behavior has no reasonable support.
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: 349 |
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If such things have "no reasonable support" in the Qur'an etc., then why are they so proponent in Islamic countries?
Are you simply taking the "friendliest" interpretations of Islam, and ignoring the real world examples, in order to put Islam in a better light? Are your answers grounded in your interpretations of the teachings, and not the teachings as they are practices and, in some places, put into law? As you've pointed out, even if there is "no reasonable support" for the discrimination of women, it *IS* the law in the Islamic theocratic monarchy of Saudi Arabia, as well as under other Islamic theocratic rulers (the former Taliban rule of Afghanistan, for example).
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wordcross
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:01 am Post subject: 350 |
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| Death Mage wrote: |
| If such things have "no reasonable support" in the Qur'an etc., then why are they so proponent in Islamic countries? |
As I said, fundamental Islamists like to be literal and there are rules and suggestions that people with power tend to want to abuse in order to keep that power. And if such has been the status quo for multiple generations, the cultural normativity tends towards justification rather than challenge.
Also, "proponent" is a noun, not an adjective. you're probably looking for the word "prominent" or "prevalent".
| Death Mage wrote: |
| Are you simply taking the "friendliest" interpretations of Islam, and ignoring the real world examples, in order to put Islam in a better light? |
"real world examples" of how Islam is practised is not the same as "Islam". My goal is to explain what Islam is, not what Islamic countries or fundamentalist groups or what have you would say/do. As far as "friendly" interpretations, Islam is by and large not antagonistic. There is a lot (and by a lot I mean a LOT) of misinformation, cultural influence, misogyny, personal agendas, government agendas, ignorance, and the like that influences how different people in different places view Islam and what it means, what its laws are, what it encourages and discourages, and what really is and is not Islam altogether. I'm no exception, and I am sure that there is quite a bit that I don't understand and may be misinformed about. However, I try to explain, as best I can, what my informed interpretation is and why I believe that particular interpretation.
| Death Mage wrote: |
| Are your answers grounded in your interpretations of the teachings, and not the teachings as they are practices and, in some places, put into law? As you've pointed out, even if there is "no reasonable support" for the discrimination of women, it *IS* the law in the Islamic theocratic monarchy of Saudi Arabia, as well as under other Islamic theocratic rulers (the former Taliban rule of Afghanistan, for example). |
I suppose I answered that above to a certain extent. Quite a bit of what is controversial "law" in Muslim countries is based more on using Islam to justify a rule rather than using Islam to formulate the rule, or enforcing a rule/law incorrectly or incompletely. For example, the law that says that you should cut off the hand of a thief is true, but is far more specialised than the way it is often enforced. Thieves must have stolen something worth more than a specified amount (think of it as grand theft if you like), have stolen without need (e.g. not stolen food to feed himself/his family), have a fair trial and sentencing by a judge, be living in an Islamic State, among other things governing the application of this law. The way it is practiced in some places, you'd think that anyone on the street could chop off the hand of a boy stealing a fruit.
So yeah, there is quite a bit of practice that is unreasonable, irrational, has little basis, and just plain sucks. That doesn't make it part of Islam, just part of a system that happens to have Islam as a historical influence.
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: 351 |
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I recently watched an interview with Pierre Vogel, a promising German boxer who converted to Islam.
After converting, he gave up boxing saying it was against Islam. Something about not being allowed to hit the face. Yet I can think of many Islamic boxers, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson, Prince Nassem, and Chris Eubank and that's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there must be more.
So, is boxing forbidden? |
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Aga*
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: 352 |
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The West London Islamic Centre
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May 27 2007 saw the first-ever Muslim Boxing Exhibition held in the UK by the Muslim Directory in conjunction with the Islamic Promotion Organisation (IPO). The event, which was held at the UKIM West London Islamic Centre in Ealing saw over 300 people attending the ticketed event with 11 bouts by boxers from gyms around the country run by Muslims.
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wordcross
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: 353 |
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I don't really know the answer to this question. I've heard that you're not supposed to strike the face, but I don't know what circumstances that applies to. My feeling is that it wouldn't apply to a sport where it's expected, but I could be wrong. I imagine that someone told Vogel that hitting the face was not allowed, so there might be some body of opinion that says boxing is not allowed, but I don't know if that's so, or how big it is, or how accepted such an opinion is. I'll see if I can find out more when I get a chance.
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