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Poisonium · annoyed by the old

Oh my, I'm really tired today.

Samadhi · +1

Israel inspected the stuff and gave it to Hamas who rejected it. Clearly symbology is more important than any suffering that may have been alleviated.
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And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between.

Samadhi · +1

I think Lieberman says it quite well.

And Netanyahu's quip is quite good: "Israel is presumed guilty until proven guilty."
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And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between.

Samadhi · +1

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And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between.

Jack_Ian · Big Endian

Samadhi · +1

Jack_Ian · Big Endian

Jack_Ian · Big Endian

Jack_Ian · Big Endian

Pablo · Never Draws a Blank

Samadhi · +1

Samadhi · +1

Poor taste? Why? Something inaccurate about them?
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And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between.

Antrax · ESL Student

If I understood correctly, Jack Ian, you're saying what I wrote doesn't deserve a response? Was it offensive or irrelevant in some way?
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

Death Mage · Raving Lunatic

Hamas refuses Flotilla aid.

Any useful idiots out there still think this Flotilla had any "humanitarian" intents?
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Samadhi · +1

June 3rd

Samadhi · +1

I'm curious. DM, Antrax do you think those cartoons are in poor taste? Sorry to lump you two together, likely a philosophic anti-partical explosion will happen....
But I also ask again, why are they "in poor taste"?
_________________
And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between.

Antrax · ESL Student

The second one assumes bad faith on the part of the Palestenians, who are not really a side in this issue, as funny as it sounds. The first one claims this is a racial issue, where it would have probably been more accurate to depict them as saying "death to Zionists", which is what Ahmadinejad says he's about, not Jews. I haven't really understood Pablo's comment about kill ratio with regard to the cartoons, so there may me more I am missing.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

Samadhi · +1

I think the second one is quite accurate. That is the policy position of the three groups listed. There are some really despicable people over there but I would wager that a high majority of the people, 80% or so at least, irrespective of their views on Israel, desire peace so they can get on with life and raise a family. On this I don't think we disagree.

As for the second, nah. They were quoted on video about basically killing jews. There was a specific reference to a massacre of jews by muslims and that that was what they were bringing. I am too tired to look it up. These guys expected confrontation, they were armed for it. If they had done something Gandhi like at the salt factory (walk up to it and get beat in the head, rinse repeat) then any death would be damning to Israel and heroic to the Palestinians. But these guys were thugs. They died because they were thugs. I shed no tears for them.

Ahmadinijad...who knows. They want the bomb and want to be the hegemons of the middle east. He's a politician, so pragmatic, as opposed to the ridiculousness that is Hamas. The population of Iran, in general tbh, I don't think they care too much about Israel as much as they care about the oppression they're under. Even after 30 years they still are very western.
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And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between.

Pablo* · Guest

extro...* · Guest

extro...* · Guest

extro...* · Guest

Death Mage · Raving Lunatic

What about all the good things Stalin did?
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Tally* · Guest

Omigosh Extro. Everyone has an agenda. EVERYONE. Even you, even me. Accusing someone else of a delusional, distorted viewpoint because they don't see absolute good vs evil is laughable, frankly. It doesn't exist. Starting with balance and working from there is the only way to work through the muck that is PR. If you start fromn a point of view that one side is right and the other is wrong you will seek out whatever information you can to confirm your own belief and actively ignore evidence to the contrary. It's called 'cognitive bias' and is well-established fact that we all do it.

extro...* · Guest

casinopete* · Guest

Tally, I think perhaps you didn't understand what extro was saying. He didn't claim there were absolute good or evil involved. He didn't advocate an assumption that one side is right. He was describing a bias he thinks is distorting Pablo's understanding of the situation.

Your "correction" that people are biased and that people seek information to confirm their own beliefs and avoid evidence to the contrary is EXACTLY WHAT EXTRO WAS POINTING OUT.

Well, except for the part about your saying it's called 'cognitive bias', because, in fact, it is not really called 'cognitive bias', because that's a catchall term for an extremely wide list of distortions that includes the much more accurate 'confirmation bias'.

casinopete* · Guest

bugger all

extro...* · Guest

Pablo · Never Draws a Blank

Jack_Ian · Big Endian

Tally* · Guest

Extro I never said "equally to blame". I sure don't, and didn't, think both sides are equally to blame.
I said if you start with a strongly held belief, you will maintain or extend that belief. I think this thread, even this website is a good example. Does anyone ever change their opinions around here (given that they were strongly held ones) in spite of all the arguing?

casinopete I realise extro was trying to point out a bias, but I was trying to point out he should at least examine the one that's clouding his judgment first. Not an easy thing to do, admittedly. The 'confirmation bias' (as you rightly point out) usually occurs when the belief is strongly held and invested in. You usually don't see it when someone is trying to start from a balanced viewpoint.

I don't want to participate in unhelpful godwinning except to say that IMO the only balanced view of the Holocaust is that it was light years beyond despicable and has left a long dark shadow that is still continuing to fuck up our world today.

Also, slightly beside the point, but interesting - in 1947, Jews tried to break a British blockade of Palestine with a boatload of war refugees. When British soldiers boarded, they fought back and three were killed. International outrage ensued and world opinion swung in behind the Jews, and the state of Israel was established the next year.

Jack_Ian · Big Endian

LordKinbote · Daedalian Member

Jack_Ian · Big Endian

The main question here has been raised by me now already more than once but it has yet to be addressed by anyone.

Is a blockade justified? YES
Is THIS blockade justified? NO

I believe that a blockade is justified but not one of this character.
You can't get empty cans to allow farmers to create tomato paste, but you can import as much Israeli tins of tomato paste as you want.
How can this kind of nonsense be justified? How can Israel still say that this is purely a blockade to prevent the importation of arms?
The whole thing stinks to high heaven.
It's right that such a blockade should be broken and replaced with one that only seeks the prevention of the import of weapons instead.

Some info by Associates Press and again here.
Or the link I referred to in an earlier post here.

Jack_Ian · Big Endian

LordKinbote · Daedalian Member

Jack_Ian · Big Endian

Just to be clear. I have never said that the raid was wrong, just that it was wrong to do it in international waters. I even said that it was possibly legally sound in international waters but was still wrong tactically.
The actions of the activists in trying to repel what they considered to be illegal borders in international waters was just nuts. Soldiers are trained to kill, what did they expect? However, the failure was on the part of the Israelis IMO, because they were the professionals in this situation and they should have been better prepared to face such a response. Also, not waiting for the boat to enter a restricted area was a tactical error and ill-advised, to say the least.
I believe that the soldiers acted as expected while enforcing a blockade.
What I have disagreed with was the nature of this blockade and as such I supported the actions of these activists in attempting to break it in order to highlight this injustice.
I don't think any of the activists actually expected to ever reach Gaza directly. Rather they wanted to highlight the parts of their aid that were considered in contravention of the rules and hopefully bring pressure to bear on Israel to relax these restrictions and allow it through after inspection.

Jack_Ian · Big Endian

Antrax · ESL Student

Jack Ian, I'm referring to post 34.

Samadhi · +1