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Antrax
ESL Student
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 Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:39 am Post subject: 281 |
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extro, to the best of my recollection, the youngest suicide bomber was 17. Not really a child.
Jack_Ian, you raise several good points. I'll start with the quote-quote thing and hopefully it can be contained.
So, "imperial conquest" to me sounds like we're trying to conquer. The point I'm trying to make is that unless the international community is effective at thwarting aggression (it's not. See: Russia vs. Georgia, North Korea, etc), you have to have SOME deterrent towards aggressors. Otherwise it's rational for them to keep trying to attack - if they lose, nothing happens, otherwise they gain and nobody does anything about it. So that's why I'm not sure you want, as a liberal committed to peace, to declare all conquest illegal, regardless of who initiated the violence.
You're probably right about the settlements being built as a bargaining chip, but I don't see how the conclusion you draw is that Israel's not earnest in its desire for peace. I thought trying to improve your negotiating position was legitimate.
| Quote: |
| I don't believe Israel is actively seeking peace any time soon. |
The question is, do you believe Israel was actively seeking peace before? That's the crux of the issue. I'm fairly certain the current government will welcome peace if it's convenient, but will hardly strive towards it. It's only right, because the agenda of the parties composing it is certainly not peace, but rather the containment tactics I've mentioned before. This is akin to the Gazans electing Hamas - it's a signal that we don't think peace is a real option now. The point I'm making is that the reason this is the government we have now is that previous, honest, active attempts at peace failed, leading the common man to the street to believe the Gazans really don't want peace with us, instead hoping enough resistance will wear us down to force us to give in to their demands. But a pragmatic Israel does not deny a peace-seeking Israel, which is why I wonder if you think all previous attempts were a sham, or if you think a nation that wants peace must keep turning cheek after cheek, regardless of the reaction opposite.
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| They are too quick to return to war at the slightest provocation and are only too willing to break ceasefires. |
I'm going to ignore the "break cease-fire" comment - it's my belief the Hamas broke the cease-fire, both opinions are expressed on WIkipedia and I doubt we'll resolve the issue between us here. However, to say we're quick to return war at the "slightest" provocation? Again, may I remind you rockets were fired for a full six years before Israel took a large-scale military action? Do you consider six years of being fired at almost daily a slight provocation? Or is there some other military action you feel was taken in haste?
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: 282 |
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| Antrax wrote: |
| extro, to the best of my recollection, the youngest suicide bomber was 17. Not really a child. |
Here's a report of an attempt to use an 11 year old: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/mar/17/israel1
The boy didn't know he was being used as a suicide bomber, and was saved. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:18 pm Post subject: 283 |
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I think there are plenty of videos that show hate on both sides, including this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mO8CWSam2o&feature=related
I think that on both sides there is a mix of different phenomena going on. I think that war has changed in the last half century. Now it's a whole different thing and here's what I mean.
It has become a business. Those who promote and administer it become rich and powerful. They need the support of the people so that the people will continue to willingly fund it, so all kinds of propaganda is used to teach hate to children so they can grow up with a war mentality. I don't think war has a conscience on either side and I don't think war in the Middle East is about ideology any more. I think there are plenty of powerful people on both sides using war for their own selfish purposes, and the bottom line is that I think when we, you or I or Obama, choose one side over the other, we play right into their hands. I know you don't agree and think I am the naive one. OK, fair enough, but I think that if we stepped back and took the profit out of war, that it would die on the vine.
One thing that I am relatively sure of is that what we're doing and what we've been doing for some time ain't working.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Johnny*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:23 pm Post subject: 284 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| I think that if we stepped back and took the profit out of war, that it would die on the vine. |
Agreed. I saw on Real Time on Friday that Oliver Stone has tape of G.W. Bush telling a South American leader that war is good for the American economy. (puking emoticon) This explains a few things.
| Pablo wrote: |
| One thing that I am relatively sure of is that what we're doing and what we've been doing for some time ain't working. |
Agreed. I think Jack has explained well how people will have to make great sacrifice and look forward to achieve a lasting peace. It is so hard to imagine such a strategy given the current powers that be. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:52 pm Post subject: 285 |
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I grew up in the '50's with the "red threat". We were taught at an early age that Russia was evil and wanted to come over here and take everything that we had. We were taught that we were the righteous ones and that the only thing that stood in the way of the dreaded Russians conquest of the US was our military. I don't think any child since has grown up in the US without being taught to fear and hate some external "enemy", the latest of which is the Islamic Terrorist. It is alien to the American mind to think of a world without enemies, and those of us who see these enemies as devices created by propagandist, self-serving governments, are viewed as naive at best and at worst, traitorous.
It is EASY to see the hate being taught by others, but we need to look at the hate being taught here. In my lifetime, American children have been taught to hate Russians, Communists, Iranians, Iraqis, Muslims, North Koreans, Palestinians, Arabs, North Vietnamese, Mexicans.....and when we run out of nations to hate, they create a generic "Terrorist" to wage war against.
I don't think we are any better than anyone else who teaches their kids to hate. I didn't teach my kids to hate. I taught them to question.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: 286 |
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| Quote: |
| I saw on Real Time on Friday that Oliver Stone has tape... |
If the tape showed that water is wet I would want independent confirmation.
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And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: 287 |
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Pablo: I think you're engaging in hyperbole. My parents (and many historians I have read) describe the "Red Threat" in much milder terms. And your use of the term "taught" conjures up images of brain washing or such. Plus I find you to be slightly unhinged when you don't even bother to consider that fearing and hating Islamic terrorists might just be a rational response to the situation. Instead you seem to ascribe it to some state sponsored propaganda.
And then you finish with this
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| I didn't teach my kids to hate. I taught them to question. |
Well, bravo. I'm sure no one else in the US does that and everyone believes what the government says (and ignores the papers and the increasingly liberal teachers and the major networks).
Dude, seriously.
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And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: 288 |
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| Samadhi wrote: |
| Pablo: I think you're engaging in hyperbole. My parents (and many historians I have read) describe the "Red Threat" in much milder terms. |
I stand by what I said. The "red threat" is what gave rise to the military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned about and has dominated our society ever since. Your parents may remember it differently, but I'm talking about the actual effect on our society. It is, in fact, what led to the Viet Nam War. That's not hyperbole. The effect of said "Red Threat" was absolutely profound and is still with us.
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| And your use of the term "taught" conjures up images of brain washing or such. |
I'd say a fair amount of that goes on here. There's no doubt that kids in my era were brainwashed. There was never once in all the history classes I took that the US was portrayed as anything but perfect, as were our allies. Likewise, anyone who opposed us was 100% evil. It was never questioned, never discussed, never open for debate. Likewise, the messages I got from parents and neighbors. I just think brainwashing is not as obvious to the brainwashee, in other parts of the world, or here.
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| Plus I find you to be slightly unhinged when you don't even bother to consider that fearing and hating Islamic terrorists might just be a rational response to the situation. Instead you seem to ascribe it to some state sponsored propaganda. |
I don't fear them. They are such an infinitesimal threat to me or to any other American, that I find it completely irrational to react as we have to them. The only reason their one and only successful attack was, in fact, successful, was that our officials were asleep at the switch. So, since it would be highly unlikely that they could be successful here again, we send our young men and women over there and make it easy for them to kill us. That's rational? Not to mention, gear up for two wars that will bankrupt us. No, I don't think that fearing Islamic terrorists is a rational response to the situation at all.But where you are extremely wrong is in assuming that I didn't consider it. I did. And the more I did, the more ridiculous our national panic, paranoia, and overreaction seems. Look where it's getting us. Duh. And you consider ME unhinged? OK. Whatever. Oh, and I don't think the state sponsored propaganda is so far fetched. There are a number of billionaires being created as a result of this irrational fear, so it makes perfect sense that there would be those who cultivate it.
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And then you finish with this
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| I didn't teach my kids to hate. I taught them to question. |
Well, bravo. I'm sure no one else in the US does that and everyone believes what the government says (and ignores the papers and the increasingly liberal teachers and the major networks). |
My observation would be that a lot more parents teach their kids to hate than to question.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:11 pm Post subject: 289 |
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"You don't consider X to be rational" != "You didn't consider X."
_________________
And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject: 290 |
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| Quote: |
| you don't even bother to consider that fearing and hating Islamic terrorists might just be a rational response to the situation. |
I considered that it might be a rational response. Then, the more I thought about it, the more it seemed like an emotional and irrational response.
Maybe it's worth mentioning that I would measure fear and hate not by the intensity of internal feelings, but by what the resultant behavior is. I guess an initial reaction of fear and hate is one thing and I wouldn't classify that as rational or irrational, because it's more emotional. But when you start engaging in costly, risky, polarizing, wars that stand very little chance of providing a meaningful consequence to the Islamic terrorists and, in fact, could help them in their recruiting efforts, I find that, after due consideration, extremely irrational.
Oh, and your point again?
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:27 pm Post subject: 291 |
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You have a very monolithic, uncompromising, and impenetrable view of the world.
_________________
And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:43 pm Post subject: 292 |
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| Samadhi wrote: |
| You have a very monolithic, uncompromising, and impenetrable view of the world. |
1. That's a "point"?
2. Maybe that view is accurate.
3. Even if your statement is true, and even if my view is inaccurate, I'm a very healthy, happy, and successful person. So......your point?
PS - I'm actually a pretty nice person as well, except when you guys push my buttons. 
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:51 am Post subject: 293 |
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Ah, settlers. They do much worse. Luckily, they're a fraction of the populace, as evident by their (lack of) power in parliament (two parties with 4 and 3 mandates out of 120. Amusingly, exactly the same as the two Arab parties). As we've shown historically and are showing these days as well, we can contain our extremists. This is different from an education system (something that's common to everyone) that teaches hatred, as evident by the fact Hamas got a majority over there. So while it's certainly true there's hate on both sides, one side generally doesn't let that lead it, while the other has yet to show any real commitment to a peace process. Even for those who worked, I don't recall Arab concessions as part of a peace process. Peace with Egypt was reached after we gave back the land we conquered (again as the defensive side) in 73, and peace with Jordan also involved giving away some territory as well as the US paying Jordan for it.
So, while it's admirable to try and see both sides of the issue, I still say you've not demonstrated that Israel is not peace-loving, and certainly much more so than any of its neighbors.
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| One thing that I am relatively sure of is that what we're doing and what we've been doing for some time ain't working. |
I don't really see the reason for pessimism. When the US started funding Israel, it was fighting wars with all four of its neighbors every couple of years AND the refugee camps problem. Now it's at peace with two of those neighbors, and there are no active hostilities along the northern border, for most part (one unilateral disengagement that worked well). I'd say definite progress is being made. I could see if your position was "bah, Israel isn't worth the money, let's lower taxes and leave them to die", but it seems to be you're saying the money doesn't buy anything, and to me it seems it does.
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| I think Jack has explained well how people will have to make great sacrifice and look forward to achieve a lasting peace. It is so hard to imagine such a strategy given the current powers that be. |
Is nothing I said registering? I've shown repeatedly how many sacrifices were made from one of the sides. Unless your point is that you need to start pressuring the Palestinians to make concessions for peace, I don't see your point. It seems like a summary of the issue, but one that ignores pretty much everything that's been said.
Pablo, are you suggesting I was educated the same? I mentioned Viet Nam earlier. What you need to understand is that for us this is not Viet Nam - there are parallels, except if we retreat, we retreat to the sea. There's nowhere else to go. So, this isn't some western colonization thing, this is a fight for survival, and always has been, for us. I just don't see how the analogy is apt. I wasn't taught Arabs were the enemy - in fact I lived to see a peace established with Jordan and two disengagements sending a clear signal: we have no desire to fight with you, we don't want anything from you except that you leave us alone. Sadly, I also lived to see the Oslo Accord explode in our face and what seemed to be a persistent, irrational strive for war on the other side. It went on for so long despite many sincere attempts at peace, that I eventually added a new component to my view of the world: the belief that it's possible for some people not to want peace. I wasn't raised on it and I certainly wasn't brainwashed into it, it just seemed like the most likely explanation given the evidence I saw firsthand. In the other thread I gave an example of how it's possible for two, even well-meaning sides, to be so incompatible with each other that they could never reach an agreement (based on the "right of return"). You keep refusing to consider this possibility, but the alternatives you suggest are just unconvincing.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:21 am Post subject: 294 |
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| extro...* wrote: |
| Antrax wrote: |
| extro, to the best of my recollection, the youngest suicide bomber was 17. Not really a child. |
Here's a report of an attempt to use an 11 year old: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/mar/17/israel1
The boy didn't know he was being used as a suicide bomber, and was saved. |
I didn't know this story, but it sounds like they tried to use him to smuggle explosives across the border, not kill himself with them. I don't really understand what a suicide attack would've achieved, there - he reached the border checkpoint, anyone can go up there with explosives and kill himself, there's no need for it to be a child. The trick is to get explosives into Israel itself and then kill kids waiting in line for a club or something like that. A lot more lethal.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:37 pm Post subject: 295 |
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Antrax, In light of the fact that the U.S. has been funding your existence since 1973....
(I'm choosing to trust you on that date, so I hope you didn't mislead me again)
I think it's you who should be answering the questions. If it weren't for the sacrifice of American taxpayers, Israel would have disappeared from the face of the earth many years ago. (Again, believing that the threats you indicate are real). So.....I'm wondering how the average Israeli feels about being completely dependent on another nation. Do you ever think, "This just isn't right." Or do you ever think, "Wow. They've been paying us for 37 years. I wonder what they are getting out of this."
But mainly, I wonder if you're comfortable with the possibility that we could be funding your existence forever. Is that something you expect and feel is owed to you? Are there any other examples in history where one country pays for another that is geographically so far away? I just don't get how this is ok for the U.S. to keep paying for you.
| Quote: |
| bah, Israel isn't worth the money, let's lower taxes and leave them to die |
The tone does not represent me, but I do agree with the first part of the statement. As I have said, I'd be happy to see you all move here. Of course, my words and meaning were then distorted as usual, as Nsof asked why Israelis should have to move and not Palestinians. I'm not suggesting anyone move. I'm just tired of seeing our resources going all over the world while our infrastructure crumbles. So, I'm suggesting we stop the bleeding, but offer a refuge for anyone who is threatened as a result, Palestinians included.
But I would like to know if Israel expects the U.S. to keep sending billions to you forever. For the record, I will be very surprised if you give me a direct answer to this question, because in the past you have been a master at evading such questions, which is why I made my unfortunate and lame joke recently that I still regret.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Quailman
His Postmajesty
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:50 pm Post subject: 296 |
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| Pablo, I know you'll get lambasted again like the last time you posed such a question. It's a totally reasonable one, however. Our lawmakers - the providers of the continual funding - would never consider that alternative, but in for-profit and even not-for-profit enterprises, all options are put on the table. Any time there's a decision involving major money, they consider every possibility. It's usually a point of comparison to consider the effect of closing the business, selling the assets and collecting out the accounts receivable, but sometimes it's the best option (Hollywood Video). There's no reason other than emotional involvement to get riled about discussing the possibilty of the US eliminating all spending to keep Israel afloat. I know I'd be upset if someone wanted to stop my welfare checks. |
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Johnny*
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:58 pm Post subject: 297 |
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| Is there any fear in Israel that nuclear proliferation is becoming too big of a threat? I understand that the Israelis dealt with the problem in Iraq previously, but it seems that Iran seems more a threat today. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:24 pm Post subject: 298 |
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| Quailman wrote: |
| Pablo, I know you'll get lambasted again like the last time you posed such a question. It's a totally reasonable one, however. Our lawmakers - the providers of the continual funding - would never consider that alternative, but in for-profit and even not-for-profit enterprises, all options are put on the table. Any time there's a decision involving major money, they consider every possibility. It's usually a point of comparison to consider the effect of closing the business, selling the assets and collecting out the accounts receivable, but sometimes it's the best option (Hollywood Video). There's no reason other than emotional involvement to get riled about discussing the possibilty of the US eliminating all spending to keep Israel afloat. I know I'd be upset if someone wanted to stop my welfare checks. |
For the record, I realize Antrax does not owe me an answer on this. On the other hand, if I were an Israeli, I would be EXTREMELY uncomfortable being on the receiving end of this ongoing "welfare" check, especially with no end in sight and no way to pay it back. I would be saying, "I will move to the U.S. and get a job and pay taxes. That would be preferable to me - better than asking you to support me forever."
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:01 pm Post subject: 299 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| Of course, my words and meaning were then distorted as usual, as Nsof asked why Israelis should have to move and not Palestinians |
Talk about distorting.
Here is what i said
| Nosf wrote: |
| It will never happen period (not necessarily because I would not want it to happen but because it just wont). The corollary proposal which no one mentioned for some reason (move all PSs to the US – a much simpler solution btw) is also not going to happen. |
What i said was in reply to JF not to you and I dont see how responding with this to JF distorts anything of what you said.
Further, you are not interested in hearing anything of what we are saying. You have already expressed your judgment. For example:
| Pablo wrote: |
| I don't believe either side is righteous. I think they are both motivated by politics, money, and power (not the private citizens, but the "leaders"), they both teach hate, and that U.S. money is behind most of it. Consequently, I believe Israel is more in the wrong than anyone else over there. I think Israel is way more interested in the flow of U.S. money than in peace for its people. |
And the reason for your verdict is that Israel gets more money from the US!!! Yes, Israel is more to blame because they get more money from the US. We would probably be less to blame if the money came from somewhere else.
I realize that for someone whose god is Money, Ideology is cash and so it would be impossible for you to comprehend that some people are motivated by Ideology that is different than yours.
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Will sell this place for beer |
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:10 pm Post subject: 300 |
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| Quailman wrote: |
| There's no reason other than emotional involvement to get riled about discussing the possibilty of the US eliminating all spending to keep Israel afloat. |
I can think of several, one of which is that the person who asks the question is not interested in an answer.
Are you?
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Will sell this place for beer |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:38 pm Post subject: 301 |
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| Nsof wrote: |
I realize that for someone whose god is Money, Ideology is cash |
Interesting statement, especially coming from someone on the receiving end of billions with no end to his country's demands for more.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Quailman
His Postmajesty
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:43 pm Post subject: 302 |
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Yes, I'm interested in the reasons my government has for maintaining a colony in the middle east. There are strategic reasons, but all the rhetoric about which faction is entitled to what particular stretch of dirt is just that. Tell me why my government should keep sending my money to your government.
Keep in mind that this has nothing to do with you personally. At the same time, I understand that it's nigh on impossible for you not to take it personally. If the business plan is flawed such that it will keep costing money forever, then we should consider options. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject: 303 |
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| Nsof wrote: |
| And the reason for your verdict is that Israel gets more money from the US!!! Yes, Israel is more to blame because they get more money from the US. We would probably be less to blame if the money came from somewhere else. |
When you find someone else stupid enough to give you this kind of money, we'll talk about it.
| Nsof wrote: |
| it would be impossible for you to comprehend that some people are motivated by Ideology that is different than yours. |
The fact that you can continue to accept our money, regardless of the sacrifice of those earning it, without limit and without end and without obligation.......well, I agree - you do have a different ideology from mine.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:14 pm Post subject: 304 |
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Pablo: There is still a very strong sentiment among Americans of "Never again." IE Holocaust. I read a lot every day on the internet and that seems to be the sentiment from the right. While I agree to some extent with you about funding (and military bases, etc) your position is about as plausible as allowing private clubs to discriminate (a position I agree with).
And considering that the aid is 3 billion for 2010 (a rounding error on the budget) you certainly seem to be tilting at windmills.
_________________
And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject: 305 |
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| Samadhi wrote: |
| Pablo: There is still a very strong sentiment among Americans of "Never again." IE Holocaust. I read a lot every day on the internet and that seems to be the sentiment from the right. While I agree to some extent with you about funding (and military bases, etc) your position is about as plausible as allowing private clubs to discriminate (a position I agree with). |
It amazes me that Americans are so selective in their humanitarian spirit. "Never again" applies to Jews/Nazis I guess, but how many humans have been slaughtered around the world since the Holocaust, while Americans seem to look the other way? I'm not refuting your point....just asking a rhetorical question, I guess. I sure don't understand it.
If plausibility were a requirement, most of our debates would not be possible here.
| Quote: |
| And considering that the aid is 3 billion for 2010 (a rounding error on the budget) you certainly seem to be tilting at windmills. |
I don't feel like doing the research at the moment, but I've read that there is somewhere between $10 and 20 billion more in "hidden" costs to keeping Israel afloat. Still not a big number compared to some, but nonetheless, enough to outrage most Americans if it were spent on hookers for congressmen. But my fundamental problem, which has completely been lost, is that the money is going to fund war, which I oppose. And again, I believe that we are thereby creating an incentive for war and conflict, not a discouragement. If we are giving that amount of money to Africa to fight AIDS, I have no problem with that. If we are giving that money to Israel to build hospitals, farms, schools, different story. Still, at some point, they need to stand on their own two feet, but it's very different for me to see my money going to fund war that I don't believe is necessary, even if "only" $2 billion........per year.......for 37 years..........so far.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays.
Last edited by Pablo on Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Quailman
His Postmajesty
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:32 pm Post subject: 306 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| It amazes me that Americans are so selective in their humanitarian spirit. "Never again" applies to Jews/Nazis I guess, but how many humans have been slaughtered around the world since the Holocaust, while Americans seem to look the other way? I'm not refuting your point....just asking a rhetorical question, I guess. I sure don't understand it. |
How many Hutus and Tutsis do you think there are in the American government? |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: 307 |
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| Quailman wrote: |
| Pablo wrote: |
| It amazes me that Americans are so selective in their humanitarian spirit. "Never again" applies to Jews/Nazis I guess, but how many humans have been slaughtered around the world since the Holocaust, while Americans seem to look the other way? I'm not refuting your point....just asking a rhetorical question, I guess. I sure don't understand it. |
How many Hutus and Tutsis do you think there are in the American government? |
Maybe a more apt question would be "How many human beings do you think there are in the American government?". 
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject: 308 |
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| Samadhi wrote: |
your position is about as plausible as allowing private clubs to discriminate (a position I agree with).
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You sound like a Rand Paul kind of guy. Oh shit. That could make it hard for us to snipe at each other. We'll have to stay away from that subject.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:28 pm Post subject: 309 |
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Yup. =)
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And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:09 pm Post subject: 310 |
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| Quailman wrote: |
| Keep in mind that this has nothing to do with you personally. |
I know that.
| Quailman wrote: |
| At the same time, I understand that it's nigh on impossible for you not to take it personally. |
Its actually not so difficult.
| Quailman wrote: |
| If the business plan is flawed such that it will keep costing money forever, then we should consider options. |
Completely agree with
| Quailman wrote: |
| Yes, I'm interested in the reasons my government has for maintaining a colony in the middle east. |
First and foremost the question of why US invests so much money in the ME is a question that needs to be answered by Americans (white house and congress).
Here is what i think.
Some background
1) Support for Israel is a bipartisan policy and a strategic policy.
2) The aid (from 90 if im not wrong) is almost exclusively military not money for food or other stuff. It is also given as arms rather than cash (which adds to us economy).
3) It is given to several other counties in the ME not just IL so it goes further than the issue of Jews or Israel (Egypt, Saudi Arabia to name two).
Here is the basic reason why I think the US invests money in IL.
To have Israel maintain a military edge against all its more radical neighbors.
This will allow the US to use Israel for its interests in the ME. Be it as a landing port for US forces or as a proxy using IL’s own army. Example: Black September (also an interesting read related to PLO and Palestinian history as well as Israeli-Palestinian conflict). In Black September case US was asked to intervene by Jordanian King - Hussein.
So this brings the question of what are those interests. IMO:
* Further in the past some of the reason was related to its rivalry with the Soviet Union. The rational I believe would be “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”. USSR invested a lot of money in the Arab world. It makes sense US would invest in Israel.
* More recently the threat of Radical Islam. (Whether you dis/agree if there is such a threat or not, it is the policy of US to acknowledge it and try to do something about it). In the ME “to do something about it” means invest in IL who the only none Muslim country in the region and there is zero chance it will turn into a radical Islamist nation. This threat is shared by Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and others ME countries not to mention EU counties. Of relevant note is the strengthening of Islam in Turkey which scares US, EU and Israel.
* Not sure about the Jewish vote. There are as much if not more Muslims+Arabs than Jews in US so i am not sure if/how this effects policy.
As another example I’ll give the US interests in Colombia.
Colombian drugs end up in the US and become a US problem->US gives lots of money and aid to Columbia to fight the drug lords. The i think is that its better to fight drugs on Colombian territory rather than US territory.
There’s more to be said regarding the separatist philosophy some of you want to have but that deserves another thread I think.
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Will sell this place for beer |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:39 pm Post subject: 311 |
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Whoa, don't get Pablo (or me) started about Colombia!
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And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Quailman
His Postmajesty
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:41 pm Post subject: 312 |
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| Nsof wrote: |
Here is what i think.
Some background
1) Support for Israel is a bipartisan policy and a strategic policy.
2) The aid (from 90 if im not wrong) is almost exclusively military not money for food or other stuff. It is also given as arms rather than cash (which adds to us economy).
3) It is given to several other counties in the ME not just IL so it goes further than the issue of Jews or Israel (Egypt, Saudi Arabia to name two). |
When you say it is military, given in weaponry, and not cash for food, I say it does't make much difference. If we gave cash and you spent it on ipods and swatches instead of weaponry, your country might not survive, so we're freeing up cash in your economy to be spent elsewhere. Sure, we're throwing some business to US arms manufacturers, but then we're giving the purchases away. Why not let Israel buy direct from the US arms manufacturers with their own money? And if the American arms manufacturer gets underbid by a French one, they can just post about it in the what-made-you miserable thread.
| Nsof wrote: |
Here is the basic reason why I think the US invests money in IL.
To have Israel maintain a military edge against all its more radical neighbors.
This will allow the US to use Israel for its interests in the ME. Be it as a landing port for US forces or as a proxy using IL’s own army. |
I think maybe you're right on this count. Having Israel there keeps it's neighbors (more or less) from fighting with each other. At the same time, America's blind supportfor Israel, or at least looking the other way when Israel builds new settlements or otherwise pisses off its neighbors, has help ally those neighbors against us in the first place.
| Nsof wrote: |
So this brings the question of what are those interests. IMO:
* Further in the past some of the reason was related to its rivalry with the Soviet Union. The rational I believe would be “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”. USSR invested a lot of money in the Arab world. It makes sense US would invest in Israel. |
The Soviet Union has been gone for 20 years. Can we stop now?
| Nsof wrote: |
| * More recently the threat of Radical Islam. (Whether you dis/agree if there is such a threat or not, it is the policy of US to acknowledge it and try to do something about it). In the ME “to do something about it” means invest in IL who the only none Muslim country in the region and there is zero chance it will turn into a radical Islamist nation. This threat is shared by Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and others ME countries not to mention EU counties. Of relevant note is the strengthening of Islam in Turkey which scares US, EU and Israel. |
What effect do you think the little incident that started this thread had on Turkish public opinion?
| Nsof wrote: |
| * Not sure about the Jewish vote. There are as much if not more Muslims+Arabs than Jews in US so i am not sure if/how this effects policy. |
Like it or not, money = influence in US. Guess who has all the money between those two. Because of that I think there is zero chance that any sort of change in policy towards Israel will never even be discussed. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:46 pm Post subject: 313 |
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The Jewish vote is clustered in NY and Florida, and is powerful enough to swing either state.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays.
Last edited by Pablo on Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:48 pm Post subject: 314 |
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| Nsof wrote: |
2) The aid (from 90 if im not wrong) is almost exclusively military not money for food or other stuff. It is also given as arms rather than cash (which adds to us economy). |
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:38 pm Post subject: 315 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| Samadhi wrote: |
your position is about as plausible as allowing private clubs to discriminate (a position I agree with).
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You sound like a Rand Paul kind of guy. Oh shit. That could make it hard for us to snipe at each other. We'll have to stay away from that subject. |
BTW apparently Ladies Night is discriminatory.
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And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Thok
Oh, foe, the cursed teeth!
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:59 pm Post subject: 316 |
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I'll mention a couple facts:
1. Taking a fairly liberal estimate of US aid to Israel at $20 billion a year, that's still only roughly 10% of Israel's GDP. Israel possibly could wean itself off that aid if forced to.
(Just for fun GDP's of Middle Eastern countries. Remember that Israel basically has no oil to speak of.)
2. The Jewish population in the US is roughly 6 million (larger than the Jewish population in Israel.) Muslims+Arabs in the US I think ends up being around 3.5 million. (Both numbers are variable and requires a certain amount of hunting on wikipedia.) |
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:20 pm Post subject: 317 |
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| Quailman wrote: |
| When you say it is military, given in weaponry, and not cash for food, I say it does't make much difference. If we gave cash and you spent it on ipods and swatches instead of weaponry, your country might not survive, so we're freeing up cash in your economy to be spent elsewhere. |
It seems here you and Pablo disagree. I think you are right
| Quailman wrote: |
| Why not let Israel buy direct from the US arms manufacturers with their own money? |
It doesn't have enough money to buy what it needs and serve US interests with its own money.
| Quailman wrote: |
| I think maybe you're right on this count. Having Israel there keeps it's neighbors (more or less) from fighting with each other. At the same time, America's blind supportfor Israel, or at least looking the other way when Israel builds new settlements or otherwise pisses off its neighbors, has help ally those neighbors against us in the first place. |
a) Blind support is bad anytime.
b) Not "in the first place". Animosity was already there. Look at Iran whom both IL and US had good relations with until the revolution. Some of the animosity was there also because of historical reasons (which you specifically asked not to mention so i wont)
| Quailman wrote: |
| Nsof wrote: |
| * Further in the past some of the reason was related to its rivalry with the Soviet Union. The rational I believe would be “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”. USSR invested a lot of money in the Arab world. It makes sense US would invest in Israel. |
The Soviet Union has been gone for 20 years. Can we stop now? |
Which is why i said its in the further past but it also cannot be ignored. Historical factors can bring some perspective on the why even if these factors are no longer relevant.
| Quailman wrote: |
| Nsof wrote: |
| * More recently the threat of Radical Islam. (Whether you dis/agree if there is such a threat or not, it is the policy of US to acknowledge it and try to do something about it). In the ME “to do something about it” means invest in IL who the only none Muslim country in the region and there is zero chance it will turn into a radical Islamist nation. This threat is shared by Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and others ME countries not to mention EU counties. Of relevant note is the strengthening of Islam in Turkey which scares US, EU and Israel. |
What effect do you think the little incident that started this thread had on Turkish public opinion? |
Not very good. Not sure why you put this specific quote in relation to your question?
| Quailman wrote: |
| Nsof wrote: |
| * Not sure about the Jewish vote. There are as much if not more Muslims+Arabs than Jews in US so i am not sure if/how this effects policy. |
Like it or not, money = influence in US. Guess who has all the money between those two. Because of that I think there is zero chance that any sort of change in policy towards Israel will never even be discussed. |
Like i said i was not sure because i am not very familiar with US elections and how power gets divided.
It seems you are convinced that Jewish voting power is also a major factor. As i also said you Americans should be first in answering this.
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Will sell this place for beer |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:27 am Post subject: 318 |
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| Nsof wrote: |
| Quailman wrote: |
| When you say it is military, given in weaponry, and not cash for food, I say it does't make much difference. If we gave cash and you spent it on ipods and swatches instead of weaponry, your country might not survive, so we're freeing up cash in your economy to be spent elsewhere. |
It seems here you and Pablo disagree. I think you are right |
Probably a reference to my saying that I wouldn't mind giving the money if it were going to peaceful use. I guess I need to qualify that statement. If we were subsidizing your hospitals and schools while you were using your own money for war, I would then object to the money we were giving you just as though we were giving it in weaponry. We would still, as Quailman suggests, be making war financially possible.
Bottom line, I do agree with what Quailman says here.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:35 am Post subject: 319 |
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| Nsof wrote: |
| Quailman wrote: |
| Why not let Israel buy direct from the US arms manufacturers with their own money? |
It doesn't have enough money to buy what it needs and serve US interests with its own money. |
If Israel can't defend itself, like hundreds of other countries around the world do, I see no reason it should exist as a sovereign nation. The U.S. should own it and they should be paying taxes to us. There should be no military there other than U.S. military. Or it shouldn't exist at all.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:53 am Post subject: 320 |
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I wish I could pay taxes to the US. A third of my monthly income goes to funding others. I seriously doubt you would tax me any worse.
That being said, the discussion again ran away a bit, and it's a shame because it's difficult for me to get feedback this way. Pablo, Quailman (welcome back), seeing as we're now discussing the validity of US aid to Israel and not what we were discussing prior, does it mean that the previous points I was trying to make, about how US money does buy something (peace) and about how Israel is definitely a country striving for peace and certainly more so than its neighbors are convincing? Beyond wanting to remain the sole "master evader", I'm asking because if you agree that US money was an important factor in the peace settlements (for example, with Jordan), then there's no reason to assume the aid will go on forever. There's a finite number of neighbors we're at war with - we're a small country. So, at some point you can stop supporting us financially, so you don't have to worry about straining your economy forever.
Back to the topic now at hand, having established that's it's rational for separatist liberals to penalize aggressive countries by recognizing that territories lost by an aggressor are forfeit, there remains the question of US aid. I'm not a very good historian, but here's an attempt to review how things went on. From the US side, this seems like a fairly good summary (refer only to when the US got involved, not to why it's great etc). Before that, other countries supported Israel: Germany paid reparations for the holocaust until 1965, and France definitely sent aid until the Yom Kippur war. There was also some cooperation with the UK.
So, to answer Pablo's questions: first of all, I don't know what would happen if the US stopped aid to Israel, so to define it as "completely dependent" may be overstating it. However, how do I feel about being in the receiving end of a "welfare" check? pretty damn good is how I feel. The money is not extorted, it was allocated from your budget legally (a thing I have no say over, not being a US citizen), it is merely 7% from the total aid you ship to other countries so it's not even that big a dent in itself, and I think it's buying things you want for you. Conceptually I do think a country needs to stand on its own, but for Israel to do that we'll have to stop being a western democracy, and instead conquer all of our neighbors to take over their natural resources, and slaughter everyone there because we don't have enough manpower to control them. Stopping the US fund will definitely destabilize the area so war would be easy. Of course, liberals such as myself will move out to other countries (not the US though - I wouldn't have agreed with its separatist policy, one that's been tried and found to be a failure in 1940, so I have no clue why they're returning to it), and you'll be left with Jewish fanatics fighting the Islamic fanatics, and the Jews have nukes according to foreign sources. So, the aid seems pragmatic, consistent with your policy, and a worthy price for what you're getting. That it lets me live in a high standard while paying extortionist taxes to someone other than you is merely a bonus, and not a big enough one to make me feel bad.
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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