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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:57 am Post subject: 321 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| Nsof wrote: |
| Quailman wrote: |
| Why not let Israel buy direct from the US arms manufacturers with their own money? |
It doesn't have enough money to buy what it needs and serve US interests with its own money. |
If Israel can't defend itself, like hundreds of other countries around the world do, I see no reason it should exist as a sovereign nation. The U.S. should own it and they should be paying taxes to us. There should be no military there other than U.S. military. Or it shouldn't exist at all. |
Single minded and yet again you distort what i say. (At least this time you didnt first say that i distorted what you said so we are making improvement i think).
I said Israel wont be able to serve US interest without the aid. Two different things.
| Antrax wrote: |
| France definitely sent aid until the Yom Kippur war |
It was reduced significantly slightly before six day war and almost completely after it. 6 years before Yom Kipur war.
| Antrax wrote: |
| There was also some cooperation with the UK. |
My uncle would like to see them back in rule here 
I have to say that i am not happy receiving all the foreign aid. I would rather do without it if I could however nobody has asked me for my opinion other than in this thread and not that my opinion would matter for US policy.
I have some questions to Quailman (and others who care to answer).
1) Do you (like Pablo) think IL is more to blame simply because it gets more money from the US.
2) Why do you think that the passengers in the other four flotilla ships were not harmed?
3) What does "Israel has a right to defend itself" mean to you if at all?
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Will sell this place for beer |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: 322 |
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| Nsof wrote: |
1) Do you (like Pablo) think IL is more to blame simply because it gets more money from the US. |
I actually think the U.S. is more to blame than Israel, but they're in it together. I think the U.S. has very much a war mentality and what's left of our economy is geared to war. It is in our (military/industrial complex's) interest to have continued conflict in other parts of the world so we can continue to siphon huge sums of money off to military contractors and other cronies who, in turn, take good care of the legislators who wield the power to make favorable decisions.
This is where I run afoul of extro and others. Because I look past arguments of right and wrong and see the "business" side of war and how it contributes to global strife, they see me as some kind of idealist that sides with evil Palestinians or Al Qaeda, which couldn't be farther from the truth.
If our current exploits in Iraq and Afghanistan don't convince you of this, then you will never agree with me. Anyway, I don't "blame" Israel so much as I believe that if you follow the money (and power) and who benefits from all this, it leads to U.S. and Israeli leaders.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: 323 |
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You seem much more interested in figuring out whom to blame for the current situation than in figuring out the best thing to do now.
Much like the situation where a PVC company might need to make a bid that will lose money (because not getting the bid will lose even more money), I do not think that the U.S. can afford to stop supporting Israel. If they stop, then the inevitable result, IMHO, is that the entire Middle East ends up a highly radioactive wasteland, and the entire world collapses for lack of oil. The cost of keeping up the support is cheaper than letting this happen. |
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JF*
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject: 324 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| If they stop, then the inevitable result, IMHO, is that the entire Middle East ends up a highly radioactive wasteland, and the entire world collapses for lack of oil. The cost of keeping up the support is cheaper than letting this happen. |
I think that Israel has an increasing chance of ending up a radioactive wasteland as time continues.
| Quote: |
| 1) Do you (like Pablo) think IL is more to blame simply because it gets more money from the US. |
They are not more to blame. It's a separate issue and has nothing to do with blame.
And although individuals are guilty of terrible things, neither 'side' can be said to be wrong. Both seem to have reason for their behavior. We just don't all agree on the validity of the reason
| Quote: |
| 2) Why do you think that the passengers in the other four flotilla ships were not harmed? |
They did not attack well-armed soldiers.
| Quote: |
| 3) What does "Israel has a right to defend itself" mean to you if at all? |
Israel has the right to defend itself. It is difficult to make a blanket statement about what this entails. Each event must be addressed individually. I think the flotilla raid was reasonable, as was the soldiers defending themselves once attacked. I think the blockade may be excessive, but it seems that Israel is addressing this.
| Zag wrote: |
| You seem much more interested in figuring out whom to blame for the current situation than in figuring out the best thing to do now. |
I think Pablo has offered his best ideas, and no one takes them seriously. I think this statement is more true of the 'sides' involved, at least the first half regarding figuring out who is right/wrong. I realize that the last part of figuring out what to do hinges upon the answer regarding the first half. This is why the sides have been unable to come to terms, nor will be anytime soon. There will be no agreement about what belongs to Israel and why. However, given a long enough time frame and it won't matter due to what I said initially in this post. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:47 pm Post subject: 325 |
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| Zag wrote: |
You seem much more interested in figuring out whom to blame for the current situation than in figuring out the best thing to do now.
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Au contraire. I am, admittedly, not hesitant to assess blame. But that's only a first step, like the alcoholic admitting he has a problem. What I hear from you and other is this:
"We have a bad situation. None of us like it. There is no end in sight, but we are trapped in it because to stop what we're doing, however uncomfortable we now are, will lead to a worse situation".
I don't accept this.
I do have "solutions" in mind, and after a brief interruption to get some work done, I'll summarize them.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays.
Last edited by Pablo on Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:25 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:16 pm Post subject: 326 |
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Here's what I would do:
1. Speech to American people explaining my intentions to covert the U.S. from a war machine to the biggest economic engine in the world.
2. I would publicize these intentions formally to the United Nations and all other relevant venues.
3. Main actions:
A, Immediately begin phaseout of Iraq occupation, including both military and civilian operations. All to be out in 1 year, starting immediately.
B. Immediately begin phaseout of Afghanistan occupation, including both military and civilian operations. All to be out in 2 years, starting immediately.
C. Announce the closure of at least half our military bases around the world. (I can't be specific here, because I don't know where most of them are).
D. Announce that all military aid to other countries or non-military aid to countries at war, will be phased out in a linear fashion over the next 5 years.
E. In the case of Middle East countries, I would make special arrangements to allow people in that region to come to the U.S. to live.
This is a start, and I strongly believe that diversion of resources from military to non military applications would rev up our economy dramatically and quickly, creating plenty of jobs for everyone, including our Middle Eastern immigrants. I also believe that without the U.S. intervening, peace would have a much better chance of breaking out in other parts of the world.
Some would view this as risky, but if I were holding a tiger by the tail, my logic would be:
My choices are A)I can spend the rest of my life encumbered by this tiger, afraid and timid, and not ever know what was possible, of B) I can let him go, risking that he'll attack me, but freeing myself up to possibly have a life.
I would choose freedom = B.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:04 pm Post subject: 327 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| I also believe that without the U.S. intervening, peace would have a much better chance of breaking out in other parts of the world. |
Just passing through, so I haven't had time to read the latest posts, however, after reading just Pablo's last two posts, I would like to say…
America's "intervention" in Northern Ireland, in particular, that of Bill Clinton, was instrumental in bringing about peace here.
Mainly because the U.S. was seen as an honest, impartial broker and was willing to invest in Northern Ireland in order to stimulate the economy, so that people would get busy reaping the rewards of "the peace dividend" and would not want to upset this prospect of success by returning to violence.
The problem for America in the Middle East, is that they are not seen as honest brokers and since they are taking sides, any actions performed by their "friends" are automatically transferred onto the U.S., by association. That's how organisations, such as Al Qaeda, can hold the U.S. responsible for "their Palestinian brothers' problems" and people will believe them.
The military in the U.S. hold a lot of sway with the President. The bases provide a lot of employment and economic stimulus and there will be uproar in the transitioning period while the economy grows to replace them. Senators will not support such an action since it will destroy them politically. Also the U.S. supplies weapons to other countries and derives a lot of revenue from this action, not to mention the dividends brought about by R&D in this area.
I would support such a change in direction, but it's not exactly feasible to implement it, even if you had two terms to do it in and the repercussions would be immense both nationally and internationally. It would be difficult to predict what the result would be. |
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:59 pm Post subject: 328 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| You seem much more interested in figuring out whom to blame for the current situation than in figuring out the best thing to do now. |
Actually no. I wanted to know whether Pablo's reasoning is shared by others.
| Zag wrote: |
| If they stop, then the inevitable result, IMHO, is that the entire Middle East ends up a highly radioactive wasteland, and the entire world collapses for lack of oil. The cost of keeping up the support is cheaper than letting this happen. |
While i dont agree with the "radioactive wasteland" outcome what you wrote might also be a motivator for US policy here.
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Will sell this place for beer |
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject: 329 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| Here's what I would do: ... |
Pablo this seriously deserves another thread as it goes further than the IL/PS conflict and the reason this thread started.
I and surely others have more to say about it (some already have).
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Will sell this place for beer |
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:12 pm Post subject: 330 |
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If Israel goes down, we all go down
| The following article by the former Spanish Prime Minister José María Aznarwas published in the British newspaper 'The Times' on 17 June 2010: wrote: |
For far too long now it has been unfashionable in Europe to speak up for Israel. In the wake of the recent incident on board a ship full of anti-Israeli activists in the Mediterranean, it is hard to think of a more unpopular cause to champion. In an ideal world, the assault by Israeli commandos on the Mavi Marmara would not have ended up with nine dead and a score wounded. In an ideal world, the soldiers would have been peacefully welcomed on to the ship. In an ideal world, no state, let alone a recent ally of Israel such as Turkey, would have sponsored and organised a flotilla whose sole purpose was to create an impossible situation for Israel: making it choose between giving up its security policy and the naval blockade, or risking the wrath of the world.
In our dealings with Israel, we must blow away the red mists of anger that too often cloud our judgment. A reasonable and balanced approach should encapsulate the following realities: first, the state of Israel was created by a decision of the UN. Its legitimacy, therefore, should not be in question. Israel is a nation with deeply rooted democratic institutions. It is a dynamic and open society that has repeatedly excelled in culture, science and technology.
Second, owing to its roots, history, and values, Israel is a fully fledged Western nation. Indeed, it is a normal Western nation, but one confronted by abnormal circumstances.
Uniquely in the West, it is the only democracy whose very existence has been questioned since its inception. In the first instance, it was attacked by its neighbours using the conventional weapons of war. Then it faced terrorism culminating in wave after wave of suicide attacks. Now, at the behest of radical Islamists and their sympathisers, it faces a campaign of delegitimisation through international law and diplomacy.
Sixty-two years after its creation, Israel is still fighting for its very survival. Punished with missiles raining from north and south, threatened with destruction by an Iran aiming to acquire nuclear weapons and pressed upon by friend and foe, Israel, it seems, is never to have a moment’s peace.
For years, the focus of Western attention has understandably been on the peace process between Israelis and Palestinians. But if Israel is in danger today and the whole region is slipping towards a worryingly problematic future, it is not due to the lack of understanding between the parties on how to solve this conflict. The parameters of any prospective peace agreement are clear, however difficult it may seem for the two sides to make the final push for a settlement.
The real threats to regional stability, however, are to be found in the rise of a radical Islamism which sees Israel’s destruction as the fulfilment of its religious destiny and, simultaneously in the case of Iran, as an expression of its ambitions for regional hegemony. Both phenomena are threats that affect not only Israel, but also the wider West and the world at large.
The core of the problem lies in the ambiguous and often erroneous manner in which too many Western countries are now reacting to this situation. It is easy to blame Israel for all the evils in the Middle East. Some even act and talk as if a new understanding with the Muslim world could be achieved if only we were prepared to sacrifice the Jewish state on the altar. This would be folly.
Israel is our first line of defence in a turbulent region that is constantly at risk of descending into chaos; a region vital to our energy security owing to our overdependence on Middle Eastern oil; a region that forms the front line in the fight against extremism. If Israel goes down, we all go down. To defend Israel’s right to exist in peace, within secure borders, requires a degree of moral and strategic clarity that too often seems to have disappeared in Europe. The United States shows worrying signs of heading in the same direction.
The West is going through a period of confusion over the shape of the world’s future. To a great extent, this confusion is caused by a kind of masochistic self-doubt over our own identity; by the rule of political correctness; by a multiculturalism that forces us to our knees before others; and by a secularism which, irony of ironies, blinds us even when we are confronted by jihadis promoting the most fanatical incarnation of their faith. To abandon Israel to its fate, at this moment of all moments, would merely serve to illustrate how far we have sunk and how inexorable our decline now appears.
This cannot be allowed to happen. Motivated by the need to rebuild our own Western values, expressing deep concern about the wave of aggression against Israel, and mindful that Israel’s strength is our strength and Israel’s weakness is our weakness, I have decided to promote a new Friends of Israel initiative with the help of some prominent people, including David Trimble, Andrew Roberts, John Bolton, Alejandro Toledo (the former President of Peru), Marcello Pera (philosopher and former President of the Italian Senate), Fiamma Nirenstein (the Italian author and politician), the financier Robert Agostinelli and the Catholic intellectual George Weigel.
It is not our intention to defend any specific policy or any particular Israeli government. The sponsors of this initiative are certain to disagree at times with decisions taken by Jerusalem. We are democrats, and we believe in diversity.
What binds us, however, is our unyielding support for Israel’s right to exist and to defend itself. For Western countries to side with those who question Israel’s legitimacy, for them to play games in international bodies with Israel’s vital security issues, for them to appease those who oppose Western values rather than robustly to stand up in defence of those values, is not only a grave moral mistake, but a strategic error of the first magnitude.
Israel is a fundamental part of the West. The West is what it is thanks to its Judeo-Christian roots. If the Jewish element of those roots is upturned and Israel is lost, then we are lost too. Whether we like it or not, our fate is inextricably intertwined.
José María Aznar was prime minister of Spain between 1996 and 2004. |
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Will sell this place for beer |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:27 pm Post subject: 331 |
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| Antrax wrote: |
| I wish I could pay taxes to the US. A third of my monthly income goes to funding others. I seriously doubt you would tax me any worse. |
I WISH they only took a third of mine.
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| I'm asking because if you agree that US money was an important factor in the peace settlements (for example, with Jordan), then there's no reason to assume the aid will go on forever. There's a finite number of neighbors we're at war with - we're a small country. So, at some point you can stop supporting us financially, so you don't have to worry about straining your economy forever. |
I think there are huge reasons to assume the aid will go on forever. There are lots of subsidies within the U.S. that have long outlived their benefit, if there ever was one. Once these things start, they are difficult, if not impossible to stop. It has nothing to do with need or relevance. Israel will not ever volunteer to relinquish that support any more than huge corporate farms in the U.S. voluntarily give up their subsidies that were originally intended for small family farms.
| Quote: |
| So, to answer Pablo's questions: first of all, I don't know what would happen if the US stopped aid to Israel, so to define it as "completely dependent" may be overstating it. However, how do I feel about being in the receiving end of a "welfare" check? pretty damn good is how I feel. |
I don't like your answer and I don't understand how you can feel that way, but I do appreciate that you gave me a direct answer.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:20 pm Post subject: 332 |
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The answer isn't really that complex: I don't mind the welfare because I see as a mutual benefit situation and not as welfare, because I don't think it's endless (even if Israel doesn't voluntarily give it up, there's no reason to assume in the future discontinuing it will cause the same result as it would today) and because I think it's consistent with policies you already have in place. So, it's not like it's some special huge favour because we're so cool, we're one of many countries that get money from you, that money promotes peace, did not exist in the past and possibly won't exist in the future. No biggie.
Do you really pay over 33% of your total income in taxes? I don't mean the top level of taxation, I mean the gross taxes from the gross income.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:17 am Post subject: 333 |
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| Antrax wrote: |
Do you really pay over 33% of your total income in taxes? I don't mean the top level of taxation, I mean the gross taxes from the gross income. |
I just checked my records and I was surprised to learn that in 2009 I paid 30.7% of my income in income (federal and state), social security, medicare, property, and sales taxes. Looks like we're pretty even. I thought it was higher.
For the period 1/12008-5/31/2010 it turns out to be 32.5%.
I keep all my records in Quicken, so I can pull these numbers quickly and accurately.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:45 am Post subject: 334 |
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And you're about twice my age. In 10 years, it'll be about 45% tax for me, assuming the socialists don't increase taxes again during that period and that I don't go up in a radioactive mushroom cloud. Also, the average sushi place in NYC is as good as the best ones in Tel Aviv, you guys never have to wait months for new movies to reach you and it's not 95 degrees out in the middle of June unless you're in Nevada, and then you have Las Vegas to comfort yourselves with. So yeah, sign me up for the transfer 
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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mith
Pitbull of Truth
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:57 am Post subject: 335 |
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[totally and unashamedly off topic]I don't recommend Texas if those are your standards. Not quite Nevada, but there's no gambling nearby unless you count the lotto or driving.
I did have good sushi last weekend, so that's something.[/tauot] |
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LordKinbote
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:58 am Post subject: 336 |
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| Antrax wrote: |
| And you're about twice my age. In 10 years, it'll be about 45% tax for me, assuming the socialists don't increase taxes again during that period and that I don't go up in a radioactive mushroom cloud. Also, the average sushi place in NYC is as good as the best ones in Tel Aviv, you guys never have to wait months for new movies to reach you and it's not 95 degrees out in the middle of June unless you're in Nevada, and then you have Las Vegas to comfort yourselves with. So yeah, sign me up for the transfer |
Okay, but you have to live in North Dakota, where Pablo lives. You might have trouble finding a sushi place, you might have to travel a hundred miles to get to a movie theater, and it's -50 degrees in the winter. You might be singing a different tune.
Oh, and it can get to 95 degrees in June in most places in the US, I'd imagine. I'm in Nebraska (certainly not what I would call the southern US), and it was 93 today. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:07 pm Post subject: 337 |
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| Antrax wrote: |
| So yeah, sign me up for the transfer |
Nothing stopping you. You're welcome to stay at my house for a while while you're getting settled. You can even ask Groza about the accommodations. The only obligation is that you'll have to help me with the NY Times puzzle like he did.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:10 pm Post subject: 338 |
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I've seriously considered emigrating to the states. I'm currently opposed because all of my friends are here. If things turn really bad here, it's possible we'll all just get up and migrate together somewhere.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:44 pm Post subject: 339 |
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Well, if you're planning on coming here, I have just one question.
How well do you speak Spanish?
_________________
* These senseless ramblings brought to you by Insanity™. If you just can't figure the dang thing out, it must be Insanity™.
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:31 pm Post subject: 340 |
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I bet he can habla espanol pretty bueno. Around here he'll need to speak Canadian and Norvegian, fer sher.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: 341 |
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It's not about where he'll end up, it's about how easily he can get in.
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* These senseless ramblings brought to you by Insanity™. If you just can't figure the dang thing out, it must be Insanity™.
[YOUR AD HERE!] |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:53 pm Post subject: 342 |
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This is why I say that war is not about ideology, security, or freedom. It is a business and is about money. It's not about right v wrong or good v bad. That is misdirection.
By the way, would anyone like to pick up that old argument about war being good for our economy?
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Thok
Oh, foe, the cursed teeth!
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:16 pm Post subject: 343 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| This is why I say that war is not about ideology, security, or freedom. It is a business and is about money. It's not about right v wrong or good v bad. That is misdirection. |
I'm not sure why the purchase of Russian helicopters, for a group that needs helicopters to develop security infrastructure and who are better trained to use Russian helicopters than other brands, qualifies as being about business and money.
The army may have made a poor decision, but it likely wasn't in order to funnel money to the Russians.
(Unless you are reacting to some Congressional leaders reactions to the purchase, as shown in the article. If so, then I can see where you are coming from.) |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:23 am Post subject: 344 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| This is why I say that war is not about ideology, security, or freedom. It is a business and is about money. It's not about right v wrong or good v bad. That is misdirection. |
I'll agree that at least 90% of all wars (and what constitutes a war is subject to definitions, but probably under any definition) ... yes, at least 90% of them, are primarily about that. And for wars that are not primarily about that, there are certainly businesses that profit from it. Nevertheless, there are principles worth fighting for, and sometimes they are fought for. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:37 am Post subject: 345 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| Nevertheless, there are principles worth fighting for, and sometimes they are fought for. |
No argument here (for once). However, it is my contention that in the last 50 years we have seen a transition and none of the wars the US has been involved in were for principle. All were for profit.
WWII was before my time and I will concede without knowing a lot about it that it was for principle and necessity. Korea, I'm not so sure. Viet Nam and after.....all bizness.
PS - For the last several wars we have been engaged in, including two currently, our U.S. soldier has not been able to identify his "enemy". That's because he hasn't had an identifiable enemy. Was is such good business that we do it even in the absence of a real enemy. We just make one up...."terror"....."WMD"....doesn't matter, as long as the money flows.
I still wonder what the priciple was here other than creating billionaires at Halliburton.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:08 pm Post subject: 346 |
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I hadn't meant to divert the thread like that. I'm still interested if people saw any merit in what I was saying, or if I'm completely off-base due to biases or whatnot.
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:10 pm Post subject: 347 |
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Pablo: Quit discussing Stone Cutter bizness in public. You have been warned.
_________________
And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:37 am Post subject: 348 |
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Very well. Here are some numbers for you to dissert: http://www.israel-palestine-conflict.com/
(the underlying claim is basically what I've been saying, that I don't really see any consistent moral principle being applied that condemns Israel. Instead people knee-jerk about what they hear about for the 2.8 minutes it stays in the headlines)
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:38 am Post subject: 349 |
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+1
_________________
And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:29 am Post subject: 350 |
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That was disappointing, mostly because I don't think people have given serious thought to their opinions. I have no doubt the next time Israel makes the headlines, people will again knee-jerk with arguments that have been raised here, and I'll again say the same thing, and the next discussion won't progress beyond what this one has.
But, to bring a sense of closure, I think it's late enough we can see the aftermath. It's surprisingly positive. The world did not condemn Israel, most likely because we really were okay this time around. Internally, it seems the biggest mistake was not preparing contingency plan and blindly relying on the peace activists really being peaceful. The deliberate provocation to violence was not considered. Probably won't happen again.
Also, the blockade has been eased, and is now less of a bureaucratic form of torture and more of a self defense measure, so I'm again happy with it. Moreover, a survey on the Palestinian side shows 67% oppose firing rockets on Israel - which I'm not really sure what to make of. So, all's well that ends well except for 9 dead and worse diplomatic relations with Turkey.
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject: 351 |
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The statistics in the link you posted are not telling the whole truth. For instance, bread was deliberately chosen because there was no restriction on carbohydrates, only proteins. I found it rather cynical.
It's not that the international community regards Israel as evil, rather that we expect them to be the good guys.
We support Israel's right to defend itself but then see this right being used as a ploy to hide other agendas.
The barrier undoubtedly helps with security and would not be so controversial if the route taken had actually went along the border.
The blockade would also have been supported if it had not gone that extra yard and been used as a weapon to punish.
It's this extra yard that causes so many problems, making it more difficult for the international community to fully support Israel's actions. Frankly it makes people wonder whether security is the real reason for the action at all. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:53 am Post subject: 352 |
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| Quote: |
| For instance, bread was deliberately chosen because there was no restriction on carbohydrates, only proteins. |
How do you know that? I haven't been able to find any sources with a complete list of what was disallowed, and the ones I found were very specific, not with product categories.
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| The barrier undoubtedly helps with security and would not be so controversial if the route taken had actually went along the border. |
First of all, I am almost certain that it would've been opposed to even had it run exactly along the border - because that border isn't agreed on, remember? You said it yourself. Secondly, there are some engineering considerations when building a big-ass wall, and I expect those trumped the need for it to exactly reflect the border drawn on the map.
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The blockade would also have been supported if it had not gone that extra yard and been used as a weapon to punish.
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So, do you agree with it today, when arbitrary restrictions were lifted?
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| Frankly it makes people wonder whether security is the real reason for the action at all. |
And what do you think? I tried to show that assuming bad faith for these actions doesn't hold water, because anything we could try and accomplish by dirty tricks we could also accomplish directly at no greater cost.
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:19 pm Post subject: 353 |
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A new mall opens in Gaza. I thought building materials were banned?
Very informative link. My image of Gaza has always been akin to what some people seem to have described here. IE a wasteland after fighting Israel. It certainly doesn't seem that bad.
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:05 am Post subject: 354 |
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It doesn't surprise me that some people have gotten very rich during this period.
Every problem is also an opportunity.
I'm sure the smugglers and government officials that had access to aid have pockets full of money to spend in such a Mall.
It appears that the blockade really is lifted now, otherwise nobody would have invested the money needed to open this Mall.
I'm sure Hamas considers this a victory but I find it all rather sad.
So many destroyed lives and nothing achieved.
The corrupt have gotten richer and the normal folks have to pay the price. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:48 pm Post subject: 355 |
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It doesn't surprise me that some people have gotten very rich during this period.
Every problem is also an opportunity.
(Fill in just about anything the U.S. government does)
So many destroyed lives and nothing achieved.
The corrupt have gotten richer and the normal folks have to pay the price.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:49 pm Post subject: 356 |
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It doesn't surprise me that some people have gotten very rich during this period.
Every problem is also an opportunity.
(Fill in just about anything from human history)
So many destroyed lives and nothing achieved.
The corrupt have gotten richer and the normal folks have to pay the price.
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:58 pm Post subject: 357 |
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Touche!
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:27 pm Post subject: 358 |
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This may be a cultural thing, but I don't really understand Jack Ian's post. It seems unrelated to the rest of the thread, as well as to Samadhi's post. However, it's clearly very relevant because it elicited more responses than my own attempts at discourse. So, if anyone can explain to me slowly what that post means, I'd be much obliged.
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:42 pm Post subject: 359 |
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My image of what Gaza looks like was essentially this or similar. Basically war torn and miserable. That's all we see on TV or in the news. Ever. The link above paints a rather different picture.
Also, it was either jack or someone saying that since building supplies were blockaded, they couldn't rebuild. It kinda looks like they can.
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And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:59 pm Post subject: 360 |
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Like I said numerous times, they share a border with Egypt. They tunnel under it and smuggle weapons and everything else they want (at great profit to the tunnel owners). It just makes smuggling harder (there's risk, as exposed tunnels are destroyed by the IDF), as evident by the greatly reduced number of rocket attacks.
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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