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wordcross
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 Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:20 pm Post subject: 1 |
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UNC Chapel Hill's student paper recently published this article. In the comments, there is a fledgling argument over whether or not Christians and Muslims (and Jews) worship the same God or different Gods.
In my opinion it's mostly a question of semantics, but if asked to choose a viewpoint I'd probably have to go with "Same God worshipped differently."
Anyone else have an opinion? Even if you're agnostic/atheist, what would your inclination be if you had to argue one side or the other (or something else)?
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Last edited by wordcross on Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:22 pm Post subject: 2 |
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...It's hardly a secret. Or new.
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The Ragin' South Asian
Head Poncho
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:33 pm Post subject: 3 |
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| He says he's worshipping the same god. I'll take him at his word. |
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Poisonium
annoyed by the old
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:45 pm Post subject: 4 |
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Any monotheistic religion worships the same monotheistic concept of God.
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Thok*
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:49 pm Post subject: 5 |
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Muslims believe they worship the same god, but that the Christians have misinterpreted his teachings.
By definition, Christians only believe in one God. So the real question is whether Christians believe Muslims are worshipping God incorrectly, if they believe Muslims are worshiping God in a way God has revealed to those of the Islamic faith, or if Christian believe Muslims are worshipping some false or made up idol that isn't God.
I know Jack Chick believes that the God of Islam isn't the Christian God. He's also Jack Chick, and therefore the last authority on this subject. |
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Johny Fake
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:20 pm Post subject: 6 |
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Since we have no actual information on God, it seems doubtful that any two people worship the same thing. The members of a church certainly all seem to agree on certain principles and ideals, but that is different than a similar understanding of the God.
Without any actual knowledge of the entity, each individual has created an image/concept of what it is based on their individual past experiences and teachings, no two of which are likely to be the same.
It's analogous to the images we create for characters in books we read, except in this case there is less knowledge and familiarity, and probably more variation. |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:23 pm Post subject: 7 |
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| When I was in a public grade school in the 1950's, one of my teachers told the class that we all worship the same god but in different ways. I figured that was true since I, as a Catholic, left the last few words off the end of The Lord's Prayer when the class recited it each morning. But now that I realize that there are no gods, I figure each person worships his or her own concept of some god or another. |
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Johny Fake
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject: 8 |
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Imagine trying to get two Christians to agree completely on God, and what it is? Not likely indeed.
I have tried to find a Christian that claimed to believe in God, but believed that he/she personally would not be saved by the thing. I haven't found one yet. But I've met many Christians that believe other Christians are going to hell/not going to heaven for bad behavior. There doesn't seem to be a lot of agreement on just his level of forgiveness.
We created God in our own individual image. |
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Thok*
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:29 pm Post subject: 9 |
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| Johny Fake wrote: |
| Without any actual knowledge of the entity, each individual has created an image/concept of what it is based on their individual past experiences and teachings, no two of which are likely to be the same. |
In the case of Muslims, it's safe to assume that the individual concept of God is strongly shaped by their reading of the Quran, and the Quran has a lot to say about the Muslim view of Jesus and Christianity. (Jesus is a prophet in Islam, but not the son of God or part of the Trinity, and Muhammed's teachings supersede those of Jesus, which are believed to have been corrupted over time. Among other things, the Quran includes versions of many biblical stories.) |
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The Ragin' South Asian
Head Poncho
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:48 pm Post subject: 10 |
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| Johny Fake wrote: |
| Imagine trying to get two Christians to agree completely on God, and what it is? Not likely indeed. |
If you ask my friends from college, my friends from work, friends I knew before college, and friends I've made since college about me, you'd probably get very different answers. Even restricting it to the friends in each group I still talk to regularly, I present myself differently in different situations. I wouldn't say they know different RSAs though. |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:26 pm Post subject: 11 |
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| They do know different RSAs since people change over time. You're the same person for legal and social purposes, but you're not exactly the same person you were yesterday. |
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The Ragin' South Asian
Head Poncho
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:35 pm Post subject: 12 |
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| Right, but this is restricted to people with access to the most recent model of RSA; they still have different experiences of RSA. People won't agree exactly on my attributes, but I still say they know the same RSA. |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:50 pm Post subject: 13 |
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| Of course, unlike gods, you actually exist. There's continuity between versions. That's why people would say you're the same person. Concepts of gods don't have that feature. Now that I think about it, does the question even make sense when talking about something that doesn't exist? |
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The Ragin' South Asian
Head Poncho
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| Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:57 pm Post subject: 14 |
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| Chuck wrote: |
| Of course, unlike gods, you actually exist. There's continuity between versions. That's why people would say you're the same person. Concepts of gods don't have that feature. Now that I think about it, does the question even make sense when talking about something that doesn't exist? |
It's an important question when discussing comic book characters. So it makes as much sense you think discussing comic book characters makes. |
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Johny Fake
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:03 am Post subject: 15 |
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| Comic book characters have one creator. Gods are all individual concepts. |
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Johny Fake
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:05 am Post subject: 16 |
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How could two people come to the same conclusion of what God is? If it happened it would be quite a coincidence.
I mean, consider what each person individually knows about the thing...I mean really knows. |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:05 am Post subject: 17 |
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| The Ragin' South Asian wrote: |
| Chuck wrote: |
| Of course, unlike gods, you actually exist. There's continuity between versions. That's why people would say you're the same person. Concepts of gods don't have that feature. Now that I think about it, does the question even make sense when talking about something that doesn't exist? |
It's an important question when discussing comic book characters. So it makes as much sense you think discussing comic book characters makes. |
Some people might think it's important in the case of comic book characters, but does importance mean that it makes any sense? If one reader thinks that two versions of The Incredible Hulk are the same character and someone else thinks they're different characters, is either right? |
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The Ragin' South Asian
Head Poncho
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:03 am Post subject: 18 |
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| Johny Fake wrote: |
| Comic book characters have one creator. Gods are all individual concepts. |
I'm not sure the first part is true. Superman had two creators, has had hundreds of writers and artists, and a place in the popular consciousness that is subject to individual interpretations.
| Chuck wrote: |
| Some people might think it's important in the case of comic book characters, but does importance mean that it makes any sense? If one reader thinks that two versions of The Incredible Hulk are the same character and someone else thinks they're different characters, is either right? |
I don't know. It may have sounded like I was implying that it does make sense, but I wasn't. But whether or not it makes sense, it's something that people do all the time, whether it's comic books, or Inception, or religion. |
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BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:57 am Post subject: 19 |
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| In the Where are you on the Coast of Religion thread, I wrote: |
| I believe in One True God. I can't see a reason to think the One True God wouldn't reveal Himself in different ways to different people from different environments/life situations and to different cultures. Hence the different religions, theologies, etc. |
My personal theistic understanding of any religion is that it has to provide readily comprehensible ideas and prescriptions in order to help people on the path towards God. If the essential ideas and prescriptions of a particular religion aren't compatible with someone's inner constitution, they should absolutely be dropped. This doesn't mean they are dropping God, it means they are looking for a better way for them to reach Him. |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:44 am Post subject: 20 |
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| Does that mean that Christians should understand that Jesus wasn't really the son of God and that it was just a story intended to help people to find their way to God? |
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The Ragin' South Asian
Head Poncho
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:49 am Post subject: 21 |
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| That only applies to pre-Crisis, Earth 4 Jesus |
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BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:38 am Post subject: 22 |
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| Chuck wrote: |
| Does that mean that Christians should understand that Jesus wasn't really the son of God and that it was just a story intended to help people to find their way to God? |
That makes it sound like it must be a fabrication. Not what I mean at all. What I mean is that the very term "Son of God" is given meaning through the language of Christianity and if that meaning holds resonance with someone than that person will probably become a Christian. If it does not hold resonance or strikes someone as false, that person will probably become a member of some other religion or just secular. It's not important. What's important is that if they do choose a religion, that it brings them closer to God. Whether or not the historical Jesus really was the manifest "Son of God" is only relevant as a belief which directs the Christian's path towards God.
Religious language is definitely more akin to poetry and philosophy than it is to science. Everyone is obligated to think in the same scientific language about scientific phenomena. Not everyone is obligated to think in the same religious language about religious phenomena. The elements of the theist's life must influence the religious language he or she uses. |
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Johny Fake
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:00 pm Post subject: 23 |
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| That does not mean that everyone's God, even in the same religions, is the same. There are Christians that could explain what their God is in a way that you would know for certain that they were wrong (IYHO). You might have a hard time agreeing on what God is with someone that was preparing to blow up an abortion clinic in God'ss name, per his word. It doesn't mean they are wrong. It just means the two of you have created different images of what God is in your minds. Any two believers' Gods are as different as the two believers' imaginations. |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:25 pm Post subject: 24 |
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| If religious stories didn't actually happen then maybe the god they help people to come closer to is just another such story. It wouldn't matter whether such a being exists or not as long as the people coming closer to their concept of a god gain some benefit from doing so. |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:26 pm Post subject: 25 |
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| Chuck wrote: |
| If religious stories didn't actually happen then maybe the god they help people to come closer to is just another such story. It wouldn't matter whether such a being exists or not as long as the people coming closer to their concept of a god gain some benefit from doing so. |
Maybe, but it would be an entirely different story if God wasn't a story and was the one who invented the stories to teach the lesson.
Of course, in this case, any theism would probably result in the same God making up different religions for us to follow.
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The enemy's base is down. |
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: 26 |
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| That makes no sense. If the stories all come from the same being, why wouldn't He give everyone the same story? I think you'd have a better argument saying that it is only one story, but man, being fallible, has diverged some from the original story, different groups in different ways. |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:59 pm Post subject: 27 |
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Depends on his intentions. If he's trying to make people be better people, then he should definitely tell them the story that would most likely lead to that end; the truth of it is inconsequential.
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The enemy's base is down. |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:15 pm Post subject: 28 |
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People would be worshiping the fictitious gods of the stories and no one would be worshiping the real god, although they'd be coming closer to the real god by learning the lessons in the stories.
Is there any chance that God inspired Richard Dawkins to write The God Delusion? |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:35 pm Post subject: 29 |
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I'd have to read it, but, without reading it, I would default to assuming that there is a chance of anything being.
Wait... should I read it--that is, would you recommend it? Bear in mind that I sway hard to audio books.
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The enemy's base is down. |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:10 pm Post subject: 30 |
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| It's mostly arguments for and against the existence of a god. There wasn't much I hadn't read about elsewhere. I read it because someone in another forum though I had read it and started to discuss it with me. It might be of value to someone who's new to questioning religion, either for or against, but probably not otherwise. |
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BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:38 am Post subject: 31 |
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| Johnny Fake wrote: |
| That does not mean that everyone's God, even in the same religions, is the same. There are Christians that could explain what their God is in a way that you would know for certain that they were wrong (IYHO). You might have a hard time agreeing on what God is with someone that was preparing to blow up an abortion clinic in God'ss name, per his word. It doesn't mean they are wrong. It just means the two of you have created different images of what God is in your minds. Any two believers' Gods are as different as the two believers' imaginations. |
I think we've been glossing over a glaring fact that's becoming more apparent. The question of whether different religions are worshipping the same God means something different to the Strong Atheist* than it does to the Theist. To the Strong Atheist, God is entirely the product of the imagination so the obvious answer is "any two believers' Gods are as different as the two believers' imaginations." To the Theist, God (or Gods) exist independently of the imagination, so there obviously must be levels of God reality beyond what anyone can imagine or conceive of. To this person the question is asking whether or not that independent entity (or entities) is what all or some differing religions are commonly attempting to connect with. Specifically to the Monotheist, it is asking whether or not the One True God is directing all or some of the differing religions towards Him(or Her?)self.
Having said that, I will honor some of the perceptions of the atheists here by agreeing that any possible perception, image, conception, understanding of what God is must be dependent on the individual elements of the one experiencing them. However, from my monotheistic perspective, these perceptions/images/conceptions/understandings are merely vehicles which make it possible for the human mind and body to act in a way which bring their souls closer to the One True God. The One True God, in my concept of When All is Said and Done, has no structure or particulars. When we need particulars (like in religion) it is because we are merely human.
*belief that there is no God, as opposed to Weak Atheism which is merely the lack of belief in a God
edited because I forgot to include the footnote
Last edited by BraveHat on Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:05 am; edited 2 times in total |
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BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:51 am Post subject: 32 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| If the stories all come from the same being, why wouldn't He give everyone the same story? |
Because not everyone responds to the same story in the same way. If you don't believe me, take a ten year old kid to a production of Hedda Gabler.
| Zag wrote: |
| I think you'd have a better argument saying that it is only one story, but man, being fallible, has diverged some from the original story, different groups in different ways. |
Nothing fallible about it. Scripture is art. Great art allows one to take what they need from it. The themes are quite simple and universal, but the techniques of embracing them differ infinitely. |
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:28 pm Post subject: 33 |
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| I'm willing to accept your theory that God told different people different stories in order to bring them all to the same correct result. I agree that different people will take different things from the same story. However, if this is what you say happened, then God has mucked it up royally. You have Protestants and Catholics hating each other in Ireland, and Muslims and Jews hating each other in the Middle East. The different stories have brought them further apart, not closer, by a lot. |
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BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:38 pm Post subject: 34 |
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| That's assuming the different stories are the cause of their animosity towards each other. I find it hard to believe this to be so, considering that many people who believe different stories get along just fine. |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:46 pm Post subject: 35 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| I'm willing to accept your theory that God told different people different stories in order to bring them all to the same correct result. I agree that different people will take different things from the same story. However, if this is what you say happened, then God has mucked it up royally. You have Protestants and Catholics hating each other in Ireland, and Muslims and Jews hating each other in the Middle East. The different stories have brought them further apart, not closer, by a lot. |
What Hatty said, and also, who's to say that it wouldn't have been a lot worse if they hadn't religion? If God is infallible, then it's inherent that he made the right choice.
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The enemy's base is down. |
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:51 pm Post subject: 36 |
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| Chaz wrote: |
| If God is infallible, then it's inherent that he made the right choice. |
Well, there's the cart pulling the horse.
If your God is infallible, why did he have to destroy all of humanity except for Noah's family? That clearly looks like a "Oops, screwed that one up. I'll start over." |
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wordcross
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:28 pm Post subject: 37 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| If your God is infallible, why did he have to destroy all of humanity except for Noah's family? That clearly looks like a "Oops, screwed that one up. I'll start over." |
There's a difference between "had to" and "did." If God allows for free will, it stands to reason that people will make the wrong choices sometimes. And human nature is more prone to hedonism than worship, which is why the worship is a test. God sent prophets and messengers for the purpose of encouraging worship. When things went south, he decided to wipe out all of the non-believers. He didn't *have* to. He could very easily have change people's minds, but then they would not have free will and it would be pointless. He could have chosen a different way to deal with it, but who's to say it would have been as effective? God would be the only one who knows.
_________________
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:06 pm Post subject: 38 |
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| Another problem is that many people don't see scripture as just philosophy and poetry, and want the stories taught as facts in science and history classes. Even more people believe the story about eternal life after death which allows people pretending to represent God to terrorize them with the threat excommunication and hell. God could have made it clear that scripture is just stories with lessons. |
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BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
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| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:56 am Post subject: 39 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| If your God is infallible, why did he have to destroy all of humanity except for Noah's family? That clearly looks like a "Oops, screwed that one up. I'll start over." |
Emphasis mine.
There is a common theme within religious writing and myth, which also occurs in near-death experience testimonies and, in fact, makes it's way into dramatic structure. It is that of the "pin-hole" of hope surrounded by vast, infinite corrupted elements. The impossibly small, nearly-overlooked glimmer of hope that Noah, Jesus, light at the end of the tunnel, 2 meter exhaust port on the Death Star, psychologically embody is the element overlooked by corrupted forces which, because of it's purity, must save the day. Corruption has gotten it's hands on everything else but that one thing. It is the rarity of purity which gives purity it's value in the first place. That is one of the lessons one can take from the Noah story. If God had destroyed literally all of humanity, then it would have looked like a big screw up. If God had saved some corrupted individuals, there would have been no real renewal. So, as usual, God saves the pure (and rare) element alone for the renewal. |
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BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
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| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:01 am Post subject: 40 |
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| Chuck wrote: |
| Another problem is that |
What follows is actually three other problems 
| Chuck wrote: |
| many people don't see scripture as just philosophy and poetry, and want the stories taught as facts in science and history classes. |
I tend to agree that this is a problem, though I think it is a diminishing one. It seems to me something that vocal atheists have been trying to point out is that science is replacing religion, and in a specific way I agree that it is. In the past, without developed science, humanity really had no means of objectively verifying objective phenomena, so it sometimes reached for religion to do so, even though (IMHO) religion wasn't intended to provide such a means. However, we got into the habit of turning to religion for this and developed expectations for acolytes to do the same. This tradition is waning now in the advent of developed science, but some of us religious folk still retain the biases ingrained within us from that tradition. Those biases motivate some of us to prefer beliefs to be taught as fact.
| Chuck wrote: |
| Even more people believe the story about eternal life after death which allows people pretending to represent God to terrorize them with the threat excommunication and hell. |
Firstly, eternal life after death isn't so much a story as it is a concept (or possible reality). The concept of eternal life is very powerful and mysterious. It is the power and mystery of it which makes it an effective terror/control tool for corrupted individuals with agendas, and this terror can be combatted through honest questioning and answering. But the fact that it allows for such corruption doesn't make it untrue.
| Chuck wrote: |
| God could have made it clear that scripture is just stories with lessons. |
I am sure God has made it quite clear what the nature of scripture is to those who seek in earnest to know. I still get the impression that you think simply because the utility of these stories are asserted to be more important than their truth value, that they must be fabricated or fictional. For all I know, they may or may not be fabricated in part or in whole. I just assume that God's allowing us to decide on this issue is worth the side effect of corruption. |
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