|
|
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Johny Fake
Daedalian Member
|
 Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:29 pm Post subject: 121 |
 |
|
| Chaz wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Is the religion you chose the same as your parents? as your grandparents? |
Yes. (Yes for Dad's parents, No for Mom's parents)--though my parents aren't as devout as I am, though they are as true of believers as I am.
| Quote: |
| Is there another religion that you could have chosen that would have been better for your relationship with your parents? (as a parent, I know they will accept you either way, but the question still stands) |
Yes. My parents would support me regardless of religious choices, so long as I had a religion. They would not support (and did not support) my choices if I chose atheism--that is no religion; they would be okay with me being a Buddhist for example--even though it could be argued that it's not technically a religion.
| Quote: |
| If you decided to worship another God, would it impact your relationship with your friends? |
Probably, though it surely wouldn't stop me. I tend to not care at all what others think.
| Quote: |
| How much research into other Gods did you do prior to choosing your God? |
Assuredly, about as much as is humanly possible. Shy of Devil-worshiping, I think I explored all of them; including Satanism. I didn't actively practice all of them though, but I didn't dismiss them out of hand. I looked into all of the popular ones, and quite a number of smaller ones. |
Sounds like you did your research. Good job. The vast majority (probably upwards of 95% (pulled out of my a$$)) never research more than the one religion, maybe two at best.
It sounds like atheism would not have been a reasonable choice for you, as it would have cost you your relationship with your parents, which is increasingly important to us as we get older. So, for maximum comfort you had to chose a religion.
Of the comfortable choices available to you (any religion), you chose the one that maximized your relationship with your parents, friends, family. Perhaps other peoples thoughts of you don't matter to you, as you indicated. But I assume that you do care. People that don't care about their loved ones feelings/thoughts are usually total d!cks; you don't come across as such.
So, your choice of religion (from the many available) happens to be the one that benefits you the most. Your choice doesn't seem to be the exact same as BH's or Scurra's. We will have to learn (if they are willing to participate), if they also happened to choose a set of beliefs that benefits them the most.
My experience with hundreds of other believers in my life is also that the one true religion (in the believers' opinions) also happens to be the religion that benefits their family life the most. Please provide any other data that you think may be useful. I'll consider these findings and work on a hypothesis. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Chuck
Daedalian Member
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject: 122 |
|
|
| Chaz wrote: |
Then I would conclude that you're unwilling to look for the seeds because people have different ideas on where to find them, and different ideas on how to grow them, and different ideas on how to eat them, and different types of tomatoes.
That's fine (I hate tomatoes anyway.) However, for someone to conclude that tomatoes don't exist... that's just silly to me. You've seen tomatoes (people who have faith) and everyone who has them agrees that having tomato seeds (faith) is the only way to grow tomatoes. They're all pointing to the same place to find the seeds (having faith, praying, and reading the scriptures.) There is only argument on which seeds (scriptures) to plant (read.)
Pick one at random. Plant 'em all. Which one you should use will depend a lot on where you live and how much time you can spend on your garden. |
I can't pick one at random to plant because I see nothing there to plant. I don''t see any seeds of any kind. I'd have to already believe in them to plant them.
Most of the world's religious people not only claim 100% certainty that a god exists but also 100% certainty that their particular religion or sect is the only true way to worship the one true god. They can't all be right. I suspect that they're all wrong but even if one such group is right, it still means that most of the world's religious people are 100% certain of something that isn't true. Even if all methods of worship are acceptable to God, their certainty that theirs is the only way means that at least most of them are wrong while claiming absolute knowledge that they're right. Are these really people that I should be wanting to learn from? Should I go with the majority even though I know that at least most of them are wrong? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaz
Vote: Zag
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: 123 |
|
|
| Johny Fake wrote: |
| Sounds like you did your research. Good job. The vast majority (probably upwards of 95% (pulled out of my a$$)) never research more than the one religion, maybe two at best. |
Agreed.
| Johny Fake wrote: |
| It sounds like atheism would not have been a reasonable choice for you, as it would have cost you your relationship with your parents, which is increasingly important to us as we get older. So, for maximum comfort you had to chose a religion. |
They wouldn't be happy about it, but they also wouldn't disown me. They would just be unwilling to offer me support if I hit troubled times. In any event, even if they were to disown me, it wouldn't stop me from being Atheist if I thought it was the correct path. I'm very pig-headed when it comes to what I believe, and I'm not very easily swayed by others.
| Johny Fake wrote: |
| Of the comfortable choices available to you (any religion), you chose the one that maximized your relationship with your parents, friends, family. Perhaps other peoples thoughts of you don't matter to you, as you indicated. But I assume that you do care. People that don't care about their loved ones feelings/thoughts are usually total d!cks; you don't come across as such. |
I assure you that you have an inaccurate idea of me. I've been described as "the nicest asshole you'll ever meet," and most people who are close to me would agree that the description fits me to a tee. I'm just very existential (I think that's the right term), so I understand myself enough to not have to resort to anger to defend my stances.
| Johny Fake wrote: |
So, your choice of religion (from the many available) happens to be the one that benefits you the most. Your choice doesn't seem to be the exact same as BH's or Scurra's. We will have to learn (if they are willing to participate), if they also happened to choose a set of beliefs that benefits them the most.
My experience with hundreds of other believers in my life is also that the one true religion (in the believers' opinions) also happens to be the religion that benefits their family life the most. Please provide any other data that you think may be useful. I'll consider these findings and work on a hypothesis. |
I concur, and don't have much to add. I do think that whatever religion you choose should allow you to be the final say of what God wants for you. The LDS church had this from the get-go (again, I cite the Articles of Faith #7, 11, and 13 in particular), and I know I wouldn't follow any religion which claims authority over personal revelation.
_________________
The enemy's base is down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaz
Vote: Zag
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:41 pm Post subject: 124 |
|
|
| Chuck wrote: |
| I can't pick one at random to plant because I see nothing there to plant. I don''t see any seeds of any kind. I'd have to already believe in them to plant them. |
Isn't that what I've been saying all along? (that you have to have faith to get faith, etc.)
| Chuck wrote: |
| Most of the world's religious people not only claim 100% certainty that a god exists but also 100% certainty that their particular religion or sect is the only true way to worship the one true god. They can't all be right. I suspect that they're all wrong but even if one such group is right, it still means that most of the world's religious people are 100% certain of something that isn't true. Even if all methods of worship are acceptable to God, their certainty that theirs is the only way means that at least most of them are wrong while claiming absolute knowledge that they're right. |
I agree with this 100%. I would even add that it would only be possible for (at most) one of the Churches to be the right one--of all the ones who claim that only they can be the right one.
| Chuck wrote: |
| Are these really people that I should be wanting to learn from? Should I go with the majority even though I know that at least most of them are wrong? |
I can't answer this question for you, but I clearly decided that "yes" was the answer to both of these questions for me. I came to a point in my life where I had to know for sure that God didn't exist, so I did the experiments with true faith in my heart. This lead me to "finding God."
Once someone has found the seeds, planted them, and watched the plants grow, then there isn't any way to convince them that the seeds either don't exist or won't grow; it's just not a believable stance after you've watched the seeds grow.
_________________
The enemy's base is down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chuck
Daedalian Member
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:13 pm Post subject: 125 |
|
|
Either God doesn't exist and my disbelief is correct or God does exist and my disbelief is imposed by him. Either way, there's no point in even considering believing that God might exist. Either it's impossible or possible but I'd be wrong.
Of course, the real god or gods might just want the praise without caring whether or not I actually believe. If I thought that might be the case then I should worship, but then such worship might anger them. There's really no point in trying to do anything at all involving whatever gods might exist. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaz
Vote: Zag
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:03 am Post subject: 126 |
|
|
Ah. I see where you're getting hung up.
It doesn't matter at all whether you believe that God does or doesn't exist... all that matters is that you listen to his advice, and follow it. He doesn't "care" whether you believe in him or not. He doesn't "care" whether you listen to him or not. His feelings aren't going to be hurt; his ego will not be fluffed. We cannot effect him. He is all knowing, all powerful, and all everything.
I just can't think of a way that you could possibly head his advice without believing in him.
_________________
The enemy's base is down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chuck
Daedalian Member
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:17 am Post subject: 127 |
|
|
| I guess belief would be needed since I've had no advice from him at all, ever. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaz
Vote: Zag
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:18 am Post subject: 128 |
|
|
However, your disbelief wouldn't be imposed by him.
_________________
The enemy's base is down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chuck
Daedalian Member
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:08 am Post subject: 129 |
|
|
| If he exists then it is imposed by him since he created my brain and the environment from which it gets its beliefs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaz
Vote: Zag
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:15 am Post subject: 130 |
|
|
I don't know how true that is.
I don't know that he wrote any of the rules for how our bodies work. I only know that we needed bodies to progress any further, so that's why we're here. How much "say" he had in how it all works is left as a mystery to me, though, if you're correct and he did "make" us that way, then he must have had a good reason for doing so; it must be necessary for progression, or he wouldn't have "written" the rules that way.
_________________
The enemy's base is down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chuck
Daedalian Member
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:41 am Post subject: 131 |
|
|
| God was the sole cause of my disbelief, being the creator of everything and not giving me the ability to choose to change it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaz
Vote: Zag
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:44 pm Post subject: 132 |
|
|
Again, you're assuming he created "everything." Even were that true (and I honestly don't know), God's has a good reason for doing so--perhaps a limitation on how our physical brain will retain functionality in Heaven; he didn't just do it for funsies.
There's also the aspect that "where I want to end up" isn't the same place as "where you want to end up" and this test is to make sure that we both end up in the right places. Perhaps you want to be a free thinker with no help from everyone, and I want to be a slave to God. Perhaps you want to dwindle in disbelief, and I want to build my own planet. I honestly don't know for sure, but I do know that God will sort it out.
There isn't any way to know for sure (it is clear that God at least had a hand in this fact, though it's not clear why he chose this... again, I'm sure he had a good reason.)
God is benevolent; he has our best interests in mind whenever he restricts us in any way. Not some of our best interests; all of our best interests. We will be as happy as we let ourselves be, even if we think we'd be happier elsewhere. The grass won't seem greener on the other side. God's fucking smart, y0.
_________________
The enemy's base is down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chuck
Daedalian Member
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:08 pm Post subject: 133 |
|
|
| While the God has his own good reasons excuse for anything and everything can never be proven untrue, it's gets harder and harder to believe as the atrocities pile up for century after century. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:18 pm Post subject: 134 |
|
|
| Chuck wrote: |
| it gets harder and harder to believe as the atrocities pile up for century after century. |
People who believe in God also seem to believe in Satan. On one hand they say God is "all powerful" and on the other they seem to fear Satan. I'm not sure how to reconcile that, but my humble observation suggests to me that if they both exist, it's Satan who has had the upper hand. Maybe the smart money is on Satan and those who worship him are the ones who are on the right track.
I guess another possibility is that God and Satan are one and the same.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chuck
Daedalian Member
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:27 pm Post subject: 135 |
|
|
| How does Satan get at us anyway? I thought he was banished to hell. Can the damned just walk out and come to earth whenever they please? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:23 pm Post subject: 136 |
|
|
| Chuck wrote: |
| How does Satan get at us anyway? I thought he was banished to hell. Can the damned just walk out and come to earth whenever they please? |
There are a number of possible answers to this:
1. We are in hell with him and just didn't realize it.
2. He's more powerful than whoever banished him.
3. He's clever enough or evil enough to escape.
4. He made a deal with the dev...... oh, wait - scratch that one.
5. Early release for good behavior....although somewhat unlikely.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chuck
Daedalian Member
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:03 pm Post subject: 137 |
|
|
| Back to the subject of all monotheists worshiping the same god, if Pablo decides to worship Barack Obama as his only god and since Barack Obama is real, does that mean all other monotheists would also be worshiping Barack Obama without knowing it since all monotheists worship the same god but in different ways? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaz
Vote: Zag
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject: 138 |
|
|
Satan is a necessary evil who plants doubts in our heads in an attempt to undermine God. Without him faith wouldn't be necessitated. Without faith, we wouldn't be able to grow, etc.
_________________
The enemy's base is down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: 139 |
|
|
| Chaz wrote: |
| Satan is a necessary evil who plants doubts in our heads in an attempt to undermine God. Without him faith wouldn't be necessitated. Without faith, we wouldn't be able to grow, etc. |
Necessary? I'm not seeing it. God couldn't somehow give us the ability to grow without faith? Hmmmm. Not so "all powerful" if you ask me.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaz
Vote: Zag
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:01 pm Post subject: 140 |
|
|
| Pablo wrote: |
| Chaz wrote: |
| Satan is a necessary evil who plants doubts in our heads in an attempt to undermine God. Without him faith wouldn't be necessitated. Without faith, we wouldn't be able to grow, etc. |
Necessary? I'm not seeing it. God couldn't somehow give us the ability to grow without faith? Hmmmm. Not so "all powerful" if you ask me. |
Again, I'm not convinced that he's so much "all powerful" in the sense that he can control everything. I think he just understands how it all works, and what to do to get what he wants.
You guys read read God as some scary bully who likes to fuck with people, but I really read him as a benevolent genius who can be crass about being smarter than you.
_________________
The enemy's base is down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Ragin' South Asian
Head Poncho
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:33 pm Post subject: 141 |
|
|
| Chaz wrote: |
| You guys read read God as an Antrax, but I really read him as a Antrax. |
Everyone agrees! I kid, I kid |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaz
Vote: Zag
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:00 am Post subject: 142 |
|
|
Eh. It's not too far from the truth. Antrax just has his head up his ass once in a while about stupid things. =D
_________________
The enemy's base is down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:04 am Post subject: 143 |
|
|
| I apologize for my lateness in responding. Lots of work and rehearsal. Really pooped by the time I get home. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:05 am Post subject: 144 |
|
|
| Antrax wrote: |
| BH, God kills Job's kids. Would you say that put Job's kids in their place? Was Job's purification worth it to them, do you think? |
nooooooo, I was talking about his three friends Curly, Larry, and Schmo who visited him and wagged their fingers at him about smack talking Mr. G. God was like "listen, this guy can dance righteous circles around you so just shut it and let me do the pestering" As for offing the kids, I didn't really have an interpretation other than that the Devil was allowed to take away what was most precious in the world to Job to know if Job held service to God as the absolute most precious. I just assumed the kids souls would be taken care of by God. I just figured it was necessary for what He was doing and didn't think much more about it.
| Antrax wrote: |
| As for why God is a dick, that's simple. The stated reason in the bible for Job's suffering is that Satan dares God. |
I must have a different translation than you. I don't see the word "dare" or any of it's synonyms in my translation. All I see is Satan pointing out that Job's righteousness is due to the blessings God gave him and not for righteousness sake. Why God allows Satan to back up his claim is open to interpretation, and yours apparently is that God and Satan were comparing the size of their dicks.
| Antrax wrote: |
| So maybe Satan had a point and Job had it coming, but I'm not sure Job's children are a fair price to pay to check something out. So that's the "shits and giggles". I would expect an omniscient being to be more sure of himself, or at last to apologize when called on it. |
I would expect an omniscient being to defy my (non-omniscient) expectations (despite the paradoxical nature of that statement). All we know about Job's children is that they were amongst the set of gifts that motivated Job's righteousness. And since God's goal was to let the truth be revealed, they apparently had to be removed from the picture. "Check something out" sounds a little too casual for that price, but "Find out a vital truth" is not casual and may have been worth the price.
I was actually talking with a minister last night about the idea of Omniscience. According to her, Omniscience isn't actually "knowing everything", but "knowing everything that can be known". Apparently, from this perspective, the choices we make in life can't actually be known until the point they are actually made. So even though God knows everything about us and what we are set up and expected to do, the element of Free Will keeps our actual choices unknown to God, ourselves, or anyone until we actually make them. From this perspective, it would seem that even though God knew what Job was set up and expected to do, he didn't know in actuality what Job would do until Job was forced to make a choice.
| Antrax wrote: |
There are many more examples where God is just mean. He spurns people at their moments of weakness. He severely punishes for what seem to me like very minor infractions, like Moses doubting him while carrying out his orders. So yeah, you can interpret it however you want, but the original text still leads to a very clear conclusion, IMO. If you want to call it an interpretation, that's your choice. |
Yes I do. Yes, that is my choice, and I think I'm right. I don't think these conclusions are clear at all. I think conclusions we come to about the particulars of scripture (or any work of art for that matter) depend entirely on what we are looking for and what we are projecting onto it. If you are looking for evidence that the whole thing is b.s. created entirely by humans without any god, than that is what you'll find. If you consider God to be a mystery, as I do, and look at it as more of a puzzle, then you will find lots of POV's you never considered before. If you look at scripture prayerfully, you will find the most profound life changing meaning to it. You can't read into something objectively.
| Antrax wrote: |
| I wrote: |
| But what if the benefit is greater than the hardship? For example, though I don't necessarily think Job's reward of double fortune is greater than the hardship of losing his family, I can see how, since Job was an influential figure, something like the eradication of his buried self-righteous would bring him into a better spiritual condition to benefit his (larger) community. |
That's great, but did his kids agree that the ends justify the means? The Hebrews needed to see their God is the best, but is the best way really to slaughter half of Egypt? That's exactly what I meant when I talked about the path of least resistance. I don't know if you know, but one explanation to the holocaust is that it was for the greater good. Many Jews abandoned the religion after it, despite this explanation, so maybe the whole "well, surely he knows what he's doing" thing isn't as solid as you might expect. |
One explanation for every single thing that happens is that it's for the greater good, if only sometimes as a warning for humanity. Some near-death experiencers testified being told by angels that the holocaust was allowed to happen in order to warn humanity what we were capable of. There is a whole bunch of ways one can fit tragedy into the grand scheme of the whole human journey towards What God Wants. Who's to say that this Holocaust, by being allowed to occur and warn us, didn't prevent twenty others that would otherwise occurred from our hands? It's not our place to do decide these kinds of things, but to learn our lessons and never repeat it.
| Antrax wrote: |
It should probably also be mentioned that God sends a prophet to tell people they're wicked for holding sons responsible for their fathers' actions. So you can add "hypocrite" to the list. |
As I mentioned to Johnny in so many words, you cannot properly apply hypocrisy to God because He does not need to operate under the rules that we need to. In fact, we don't even know the rules, if any, that God operates under. You can't properly call a parent a hypocrite for staying up late but making their kids go to bed early. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Antrax
ESL Student
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:35 am Post subject: 145 |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I just assumed the kids souls would be taken care of by God. |
Which is great except we already established this concept is not in the bible. The closest you can maybe find is one of the prophets who "ascended in a storm to the heavens", but that's not what happened to the kids. They just die.
| Quote: |
| All I see is Satan pointing out that Job's righteousness is due to the blessings God gave him and not for righteousness sake. Why God allows Satan to back up his claim is open to interpretation, and yours apparently is that God and Satan were comparing the size of their dicks. |
Seriously, that's (well, less disrespectfully) how I remember it from bible class. Satan makes a claim that it's easy to be righteous when life goes your way, God says "nuh uh, Job is so righteous you can do whatever you want to him and he'll still believe in me", and off they go. Since I was normally kicked out of bible class (despite honestly and truly not trying to annoy, the bible just made no sense to me back then as well), I doubt this is a stretch over the original text.
| Quote: |
| You can't read into something objectively. |
I'm not. I guess you're correct. My perspective when learning the bible was always to think of God as one of us, except with the omnipotence and all that. God creates man in his image, human characteristics are attributed to Him, so I judge him by the same standards I would judge another person. In the case of Job, for instance, I can come up with less damaging way to affect the same test. Maybe God could clone Job, experiment on that, and then destroy the experiment? That's also evil, but at least it doesn't harm Job. Why couldn't God punk Job into believing his kids died, and then return them after the ordeal was done? Or maybe just resurrect them, preferably with some pleasant memories to make up for the missing time? Those are solutions I, as a human, can think of and seem much better to me. So it's always possible that there's some profound reason why they don't work, but beyond this generic argument, I guess I do interpret, but I think it's reasonable.
| Quote: |
| One explanation for every single thing that happens is that it's for the greater good |
Of course. I just think that the fact it applies to everything makes it not very compelling. At least it can be interesting to speculate to see how it's for the greater good.
| Quote: |
| Who's to say that this Holocaust, by being allowed to occur and warn us, didn't prevent twenty others that would otherwise occurred from our hands? |
I'm not sure my many dead relatives would've appreciated being made into an example like this. What's wrong with just appearing, doing a miracle, and telling us "look, you guys, racial intolerance is a really bad idea, I know I created you with a natural propensity towards xenophobia but seriously, relax a bit"? Do you think that would've been less convincing than the wholesale slaughter? Especially since we argue he doesn't know how we'll respond to what he does, so it's possible he lets all those people die for no reason, without trying the more obvious route, the one without the death toll.
| Quote: |
| You can't properly call a parent a hypocrite for staying up late but making their kids go to bed early. |
I think I did exactly that when I was young, but I see your point.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: 146 |
|
|
| Chaz wrote: |
Again, I'm not convinced that he's so much "all powerful" in the sense that he can control everything. I think he just understands how it all works, and what to do to get what he wants.
You guys read read God as some scary bully who likes to fuck with people, but I really read him as a benevolent genius who can be crass about being smarter than you. |
OK, so then there is no "absolute God" and we can "read" Him any way we choose? Then what makes your "read" any more valid than anyone else's and how then can you be sure of so many things....
Based on what you're suggesting, he's just as likely to be a scary bully as a benevolent genius. So, there's no "absolutes"? Even in the Bible (which I haven't read any of)?
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaz
Vote: Zag
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:15 pm Post subject: 147 |
|
|
| Pablo wrote: |
OK, so then there is no "absolute God" and we can "read" Him any way we choose? Then what makes your "read" any more valid than anyone else's and how then can you be sure of so many things....
Based on what you're suggesting, he's just as likely to be a scary bully as a benevolent genius. So, there's no "absolutes"? Even in the Bible (which I haven't read any of)? |
To answer your questions in order...
There is an absolute God; you can read him any way you choose, but that doesn't mean that however you read him will be correct.
It's more valid for my consciousness. I would say most people who repeat the steps I took (the same ones the LDS church suggests you take when looking for God) would come to the same conclusions that I came to. I don't see how you couldn't come to these conclusions, since, at the very least I believe, they're true.
I can't be sure; I have to be faithful. I can't think of other explanation for "what God does" which makes any level of sense to me. If faith isn't a perquisite, then it's just massive bullying.
Yes, he could just as easily be a scary bully, but, be that the case, I don't want to "hang out with him" in the afterlife, so I'd be fine being wrong. If I'm going to be miserable, then I might as well be really miserable. Go big, or go home.
"Nothing is absolute."
It baffles me as to how you can proclaim something "false" if you haven't read it. It's smacks of denying evolution by someone who hasn't even read Darwin's works (or works based on Darwin's.) You can choose not to read it, or you can say it's false, but it's close-minded to do both simultaneously.
_________________
The enemy's base is down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:38 pm Post subject: 148 |
|
|
| Chaz wrote: |
It baffles me as to how you can proclaim something "false" if you haven't read it. It's smacks of denying evolution by someone who hasn't even read Darwin's works (or works based on Darwin's.) You can choose not to read it, or you can say it's false, but it's close-minded to do both simultaneously. |
There's a big difference between proclaiming something false and saying you don't believe it.
I don't believe in God for the same reasons indicated by Chuck and others. I just haven't seen any evidence of Him nor have I seen evidence presented by others that is persuasive to me.
I don't claim that He doesn't exist, as a fact. I simply say that lacking convincing evidence, I do not believe in His existence.
Further, I really don't even care if He exists. It does interest me that humans have adopted this faith for centuries and it does interest me that it has had a huge impact on almost every civilization that has ever existed. It interests me that even among believers there are such huge differences in what they believe. But....whether or not a God really exists, I couldn't give much less of a shit.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaz
Vote: Zag
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: 149 |
|
|
| Quote: |
| There's a big difference between proclaiming something false and saying you don't believe it. |
You have insinuated that you think it's nonsense. I fail to understand how you can think so if you haven't read it.
_________________
The enemy's base is down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:17 pm Post subject: 150 |
|
|
| Chaz wrote: |
| Quote: |
| There's a big difference between proclaiming something false and saying you don't believe it. |
You have insinuated that you think it's nonsense. I fail to understand how you can think so if you haven't read it. |
I've insinuated that? I didn't think so. I didn't mean to. But in all honesty, I do believe it's nonsense. But so what? What difference does it make what I think? I don't care enough to read it or study it. I respect those who really do believe it, including my own children, one of whom became a Mormon, because they live by it. That's all you can really ask of me. I think that it's all just superstition and humans fabricating answers to that which they can't understand. But again, so what? I respect and like you, along with others who believe things I don't believe. I take about 20 vitamin pills every day. There are those who think that's nonsense. So what? They're either helping me or not, independent of what others think.
I can easily think it's nonsense without studying it, just like I think Santa Claus is nonsense. It doesn't mean I'm right and because I haven't studied it doesn't mean I'm wrong. I just don't care. But that shouldn't affect what you and I think of each other and shouldn't interfere with our respect of each other as humans. It certainly doesn't affect what I think of my kids or vice versa. In fact, my daughter wants me to come to church with her. She wants her bible study class to have the opportunity to learn what atheists really think and are really like. Maybe it's a trap and they're going to stone me, but I don't think so. I really don't want to speak for all atheists, but I'll be glad to go there and talk openly about my own thoughts.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaz
Vote: Zag
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:39 pm Post subject: 151 |
|
|
| Pablo wrote: |
I've insinuated that? I didn't think so. I didn't mean to. But in all honesty, I do believe it's nonsense. But so what? What difference does it make what I think? I don't care enough to read it or study it. I respect those who really do believe it, including my own children, one of whom became a Mormon, because they live by it. That's all you can really ask of me. I think that it's all just superstition and humans fabricating answers to that which they can't understand. But again, so what? I respect and like you, along with others who believe things I don't believe. I take about 20 vitamin pills every day. There are those who think that's nonsense. So what? They're either helping me or not, independent of what others think.
I can easily think it's nonsense without studying it, just like I think Santa Claus is nonsense. It doesn't mean I'm right and because I haven't studied it doesn't mean I'm wrong. I just don't care. But that shouldn't affect what you and I think of each other and shouldn't interfere with our respect of each other as humans. It certainly doesn't affect what I think of my kids or vice versa. In fact, my daughter wants me to come to church with her. She wants her bible study class to have the opportunity to learn what atheists really think and are really like. Maybe it's a trap and they're going to stone me, but I don't think so. I really don't want to speak for all atheists, but I'll be glad to go there and talk openly about my own thoughts. |
As I have indicated, I have the utmost respect for you, Mike. I'm just dumbfounded as to how you can dismiss an idea as silly without understanding it firsthand. It honestly goes against a lot of assumptions I'd made about you.
Is your daughter the Mormon? If so, there's a much better chance that they're going to try to convert your ass then stone it. Though, I'm thinking it was your son who went the Mormon path. I would love to be a fly on the wall at that study group.
_________________
The enemy's base is down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:53 pm Post subject: 152 |
|
|
| Chaz wrote: |
As I have indicated, I have the utmost respect for you, Mike. I'm just dumbfounded as to how you can dismiss an idea as silly without understanding it firsthand. It honestly goes against a lot of assumptions I'd made about you. |
The idea of God didn't make sense to me as a child. I can't tell you why for sure, nor do I have any interest whatsoever in seeking the "truth" on the matter. It's just not important to me. Lots of people dismiss ideas that I don't. For example, there are people who smoke and do not exercise. They just dismiss the notion that taking care of your body is important. That dumbfounds me, especially people who otherwise seem so reasonable, responsible, and rational. They just don't care about health the way I do and they never will. I think it's similar to me just not caring about religion.
| Quote: |
| Is your daughter the Mormon? If so, there's a much better chance that they're going to try to convert your ass then stone it. Though, I'm thinking it was your son who went the Mormon path. I would love to be a fly on the wall at that study group. |
It's our son who's the Mormon. He tried to convert us when he still lived at home, but he's given up. I think he just plans to baptize us posthumously. So, in a sense, I'm covered. 
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chaz
Vote: Zag
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:40 pm Post subject: 153 |
|
|
| Pablo wrote: |
| The idea of God didn't make sense to me as a child. I can't tell you why for sure, nor do I have any interest whatsoever in seeking the "truth" on the matter. It's just not important to me. Lots of people dismiss ideas that I don't. For example, there are people who smoke and do not exercise. They just dismiss the notion that taking care of your body is important. That dumbfounds me, especially people who otherwise seem so reasonable, responsible, and rational. They just don't care about health the way I do and they never will. I think it's similar to me just not caring about religion. |
Huh. I agree actually. Great point.
| Pablo wrote: |
| It's our son who's the Mormon. He tried to convert us when he still lived at home, but he's given up. I think he just plans to baptize us posthumously. So, in a sense, I'm covered. |
Nice.
_________________
The enemy's base is down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:34 am Post subject: 154 |
|
|
| Antrax wrote: |
| I wrote: |
| I just assumed the kids souls would be taken care of by God. |
Which is great except we already established this concept is not in the bible. The closest you can maybe find is one of the prophets who "ascended in a storm to the heavens", but that's not what happened to the kids. They just die. |
They just die. Well, either they continue to exist in some form after death, or they don't. If they do, I think we can safely assume that at the very least a merciful God would take care of innocent souls. If they don't, then it doesn't really matter what was "worth it" to them. In fact, there is no "worth it to them". There's not even a "them" for something to be worth anything to. They are no more. Non existent. Ex-entities. If nobody exists in any form after death, but there is an eternal God, then all that really matters in the end is serving God, and if part of the childrens' role in serving God was to die, then that's all that really matters. I don't understand what set of beliefs you are assuming when you think that this somehow ended up a tragedy from the point of view of the dead children?? They just die.
Now you might come back and say that no where in the Old Testament does it imply that God is eternal, or some such thing, and that may be fair because I have a bunch of religious concepts in my head, some of which may only have originated from Christianity, I don't know. So I am trusting you to keep me in check on this. I have only read the Torah and the other books with Christian concepts already in my subconscious, which in turn probably affected my interpretation. So it would probably be nearly impossible for me to get non-Christian impressions of the Torah. I would have to cross-check every religious concept that comes into my head, not only from Christianity, but from near-death experience testimonies and personal revelation experiences. It will be much easier if you keep pointing out which concepts are and are not implied in the Torah, when you sense one.
| Antrax wrote: |
| Satan makes a claim that it's easy to be righteous when life goes your way, God says "nuh uh, Job is so righteous you can do whatever you want to him and he'll still believe in me", and off they go. Since I was normally kicked out of bible class (despite honestly and truly not trying to annoy, the bible just made no sense to me back then as well), I doubt this is a stretch over the original text. |
Well, I don't know how far removed my translation is from the original text, but in my translation right in front of me (English Standard Version), God never denies Satan's claims about Job. All he does is ask the same question to Satan both times, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" Then, after Satan makes his observation on Job's self-righteousness, God immediately gives him permission to do his destruction. That's it. The only difference is that when Satan comes back the second time, God adds "He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason." This is also not a denial of Satan's claims, but a pointing out of a fact. The reason He pointed it out can be interpreted in a number of ways. He could be forcing Satan to look at his own evil, He could be seeing how much of a case Satan really believed he had, He could be pulling the right trigger to motivate Satan into the right mode of intention to carry out His plan, etc. God never actually tells Satan he's wrong about Job.
| Antrax wrote: |
| My perspective when learning the bible was always to think of God as one of us, except with the omnipotence and all that. God creates man in his image, human characteristics are attributed to Him, so I judge him by the same standards I would judge another person. In the case of Job, for instance, I can come up with less damaging way to affect the same test. Maybe God could clone Job, experiment on that, and then destroy the experiment? That's also evil, but at least it doesn't harm Job. Why couldn't God punk Job into believing his kids died, and then return them after the ordeal was done? Or maybe just resurrect them, preferably with some pleasant memories to make up for the missing time? Those are solutions I, as a human, can think of and seem much better to me. So it's always possible that there's some profound reason why they don't work, but beyond this generic argument, I guess I do interpret, but I think it's reasonable. |
Fair enough. Some of those solutions are ones that I, as a human, think of as senseless or ineffectual. I do like the resurrection one, though, I suppose.
| Antrax wrote: |
| I'm not sure my many dead relatives would've appreciated being made into an example like this. What's wrong with just appearing, doing a miracle, and telling us "look, you guys, racial intolerance is a really bad idea, I know I created you with a natural propensity towards xenophobia but seriously, relax a bit"? Do you think that would've been less convincing than the wholesale slaughter? |
Unfortunately, yes. My reaction to what's wrong with that solution is human nature. We don't effectively change our ways through verbal caution alone. I wish it were otherwise, but I just don't think it is. Forces like Idolatry and Hatred are so powerful, they can easily be justified. Sometimes we need to get burned to really perceive the magnitude of damage they can cause.
| Antrax wrote: |
| Especially since we argue he doesn't know how we'll respond to what he does, so it's possible he lets all those people die for no reason, without trying the more obvious route, the one without the death toll |
Well, I think I should clarify the whole Omniscience blurb I mentioned before. I recognize that as only one perspective of Omniscience, but for consistency of argument, let's suppose it's true. Even though, yes, God doesn't know the actuality of the choice that we will make until we actually make it, He knows absolutely everything else about what choices we are extremely likely to make and our nature and all of that. So I'm imagining he bases His choices on what to allow and what not to allow on what is most likely to either benefit His creation or cut it's losses. If the "one Holocaust to avoid twenty" theory is true, than it would fall under the category of something God allowed (not willed, but allowed) to cut our losses. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Antrax
ESL Student
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:38 am Post subject: 155 |
|
|
Hearing a Christian arguing the fatalistic viewpoint? Now I know I'm on the GL
| Quote: |
| They just die. Well, either they continue to exist in some form after death, or they don't. If they do, -snip- If they don't, then it doesn't really matter what was "worth it" to them. In fact, there is no "worth it to them". There's not even a "them" for something to be worth anything to. -snip- I don't understand what set of beliefs you are assuming when you think that this somehow ended up a tragedy from the point of view of the dead children?? They just die. |
The reason I disagree with you here is that I don't try to take the role of the impartial observer, which is what you seem to be doing. You are correct in that I don't believe the universe really cares about me, so maybe in some objective sense it doesn't matter if I live 10 years, 100 years or not at all. But personally I don't care about the "objective" sense at all. I may not be able to persuade others of it, but my existence is very very important (to me), every second of it. And since I'm the one calling the shots, I am declaring it a terrible tragedy for me to die. You may disagree, and it may be difficult for me to defend this viewpoint once I'm dead, but I still maintain it would be immoral for you to kill me now, even though you know full well that I don't believe in life after death so post factum there may be nobody left to agree that what you did was wrong. In other words, my moral judgments are decidedly personal without any claims of objectivity. Combined with the basic assumption other people are not dissimilar to me on some core level, my empathy dictates that I feel those children were horribly wronged. God may disagree, of course, just as a serial rapist may argue the victims had it coming and were putting him on. Everybody get their say, I just don't have to accept what they're saying.
| Quote: |
| Now you might come back and say that no where in the Old Testament does it imply that God is eternal, or some such thing, |
Nope. Same God you know: eternal, all-knowing, all-powerful.
| Quote: |
| Unfortunately, yes. My reaction to what's wrong with that solution is human nature. We don't effectively change our ways through verbal caution alone. I wish it were otherwise, but I just don't think it is. Forces like Idolatry and Hatred are so powerful, they can easily be justified. Sometimes we need to get burned to really perceive the magnitude of damage they can cause. |
And do you feel that His Brilliant Way worked better than just performing the miracle? Have you googled "North Korean Death Camps" recently? I seriously doubt people learned anything from the holocaust. They just say "yeah well, but it doesn't apply to us because..." and go about their murderous way. A miracle (or even a divine threat, "I could still flood everything, you know") is likely to have been more effective, in my opinion. Also would've helped poor agnostics like myself.
| Quote: |
| Well, I think I should clarify the whole Omniscience blurb I mentioned before. I recognize that as only one perspective of Omniscience, but for consistency of argument, let's suppose it's true. Even though, yes, God doesn't know the actuality of the choice that we will make until we actually make it, He knows absolutely everything else about what choices we are extremely likely to make and our nature and all of that. So I'm imagining he bases His choices on what to allow and what not to allow on what is most likely to either benefit His creation or cut it's losses. If the "one Holocaust to avoid twenty" theory is true, than it would fall under the category of something God allowed (not willed, but allowed) to cut our losses. |
Usually when I try to fix something, I try the less destructive solutions first. What damage was there in appearing in Germany in '35 and telling the Germans "look, you're about to make a huge mistake. I know you're still mad about 'The World War' but trust me, it might get much worse". Then when they don't listen okay, I guess letting them have the holocaust is the only way. But it seems his Omniscience just prevents Him from trying the paths with less body count, about those he's sure they won't work. The best way is to immediately start with holocausts and nukes, THAT lesson will hold for at least 25 years.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:38 pm Post subject: 156 |
|
|
| Antrax wrote: |
| I am declaring it a terrible tragedy for me to die. You may disagree... |
I can't think of any conversation I've had IRL where this phrase had to be made in response to something I've said. I must be on the GL 
I think our discussion so far has been extremely interesting, and if nothing else comes of it, that has been reward enough for having it. However, I don't think it would be nearly as rewarding for me personally if I only stuck to defending my point of view impartially. I am trying to take the POV of an impartial observer, because what I'm seeing are atheists essentially saying the following: "the descriptions that the Bible ascribes to God (omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, merciful, etc) contradict His motives when acting. Therefore, the Bible was likely just made up." But the problem is that any motives which are less than perfect on God's part, are not explicitly stated or implied in the Bible (perfect motives are), and so depend on what we are projecting onto Him. It would seem, then, that the kind of Biblical contradiction in question does not come from the Bible, but from the atheist. It might do the atheist good to realize that if there is any truth to it, rather than think that their rejection is based on some objective reading of the Bible. That was the crux of what I was attempting to get across to Johnny, when you entered the picture and (correctly) questioned some of my assumptions.
| Antrax wrote: |
| And do you feel that His Brilliant Way worked better than just performing the miracle? Have you googled "North Korean Death Camps" recently? I seriously doubt people learned anything from the holocaust. They just say "yeah well, but it doesn't apply to us because..." and go about their murderous way. A miracle (or even a divine threat, "I could still flood everything, you know") is likely to have been more effective, in my opinion. Also would've helped poor agnostics like myself. |
I certainly don't think it was His Brilliant Way. I don't suggest it was His Way at all, but our way which He allowed us to pursue to show us how wrong that way actually is. Both North Korea and 1930's Germany treated their leaders as Gods instead of treating...well...God as God. I wonder how the first commandment is written in original Hebrew. Is it "you shall have no other Gods before me" in some form or another? Don't you think a good case could be made that both the Nazis and North Koreans were/are clearly in violation of that commandment? If this ancient command can be ignored, misinterpreted or mistranslated, or rationalized by human beings, if a human being can say of an entire Holocaust "well that doesn't apply to us, because XYZ", do you really think that some miracle or Divine threat would illicit some different response? Do you really think that human beings would uniformly agree on how to respond to it and not interpret it to mean what they wanted it to mean or disbelieve a clever and powerfully manipulative demagogue who "interpreted" it for them? I just don't buy it. I'm not suggesting that all of Humanity learned a hard lesson which we aren't capable of repeating, I'm suggesting the possibility that anything less powerful than the real Witness of What We Are Capable Of might have been ineffective at preventing something even worse for humanity and the world.
| Antrax wrote: |
| Usually when I try to fix something, I try the less destructive solutions first. What damage was there in appearing in Germany in '35 and telling the Germans "look, you're about to make a huge mistake. I know you're still mad about 'The World War' but trust me, it might get much worse". Then when they don't listen okay, I guess letting them have the holocaust is the only way. But it seems his Omniscience just prevents Him from trying the paths with less body count, about those he's sure they won't work. The best way is to immediately start with holocausts and nukes, THAT lesson will hold for at least 25 years. |
This is, of course, all just speculation, but it may well have been the best way considering the slavish nature of the Nazis and their supporters. There is a religious concept, not sure if it's from Christianity or not, that says the moment you are in God's presence and witness directly his Divine Works, you can no longer believe in any other truth. This conceivably is great for someone who always defiantly does what they truly want to do (sinful or no), because now their desires are directed towards divinity and their actions will follow. This is not so great for someone who acts slavishly as the Nazi's and their supporters did. Such a person hardly ever does what they want, so if they want Divinity, it would only widen the gap between what they want and what they do, rather than actually change what they do. What results from that is anyone's guess. Probably not very pretty.
Last edited by BraveHat on Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:14 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:44 pm Post subject: 157 |
|
|
By the way, I have a new sig 
_________________
"I am declaring it a terrible tragedy for me to die. You may disagree..." --Antrax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Antrax
ESL Student
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:12 pm Post subject: 158 |
|
|
| Quote: |
| "the descriptions that the Bible ascribes to God (omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, merciful, etc) contradict His motives when acting. Therefore, the Bible was likely just made up." |
Growing up, I didn't really think the bible was made up. I instead thought God is a douche and it upset me far worse. In any case, I'm not an impartial observer, and I have no aspiration to be one. I'm not trying to change your mind. All I'm saying is that despite its flaws, I instinctively judge God as I would another human who did the deeds described in the bible. There's always the answer "yeah well, he's smarter than you, trust me it wouldn't have worked". But that answer is very unsatisfying to the puzzle that God poses, mostly because it's just synthetic. It has no real content. Let us define G as someone who can do no wrong and let D be a deed performed by G. So O is good. QED. It doesn't really provoke you to go out and think about your observations - why does it matter? Whatever conclusion you might draw, could be just the opposite -- just look at how wrong my conclusions are so far. To me God seems an arrogant, sadistic bastard, devoid of compassion. That's obviously false, but that's the best I can do with what I have, so why bother pondering? It's not as though I have any way of discerning the correct answer from the wrong ones, and it's not as though he'll give me feedback until it's far too late (Judaism again).
| Quote: |
| I wonder how the first commandment is written in original Hebrew. |
Literally: I am your lord God. You shall have no other God over me.
| Quote: |
| Don't you think a good case could be made that both the Nazis and North Koreans were/are clearly in violation of that commandment? |
I don't think you need a fascist leader to be evil. Look at the Rwandan Genocide, for instance. Look at the Sabra & Shatila massacre. You definitely need some directing force to know where to send your hatred, but that doesn't have to come in the form of a leader.
| Quote: |
| do you really think that some miracle or Divine threat would illicit some different response? |
Well yeah, it's a miracle. I mean, look how well the threat of mutual nuclear destruction prevented an all-out war between the US and Russia. Look how Kim Jong-Il gets to screw with everybody because he has nukes. Hell, the threat of raising oil prices gives OPEC a fair bit of power over the nations of the world. I'd say that on an international scale, threats work wonders.
Besides, let's say it really doesn't work. Some demagogue twists God's words. So what happens? You end up with the holocaust, again. It's not worse than the alternative, doing nothing, is it?
| Quote: |
| This is, of course, all just speculation, but it may well have been the best way considering the slavish nature of the Nazis and their supporters. |
Sorry to say, but there is nothing special about Nazi supporters. And if you were already familiar with the first link, try this on for size. God made us pretty shitty.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
casinopete*
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:21 am Post subject: 159 |
|
|
| Pablo wrote: |
| The idea of God didn't make sense to me as a child. I can't tell you why for sure, nor do I have any interest whatsoever in seeking the "truth" on the matter. It's just not important to me. Lots of people dismiss ideas that I don't. For example, there are people who smoke and do not exercise. They just dismiss the notion that taking care of your body is important. That dumbfounds me, especially people who otherwise seem so reasonable, responsible, and rational. They just don't care about health the way I do and they never will. I think it's similar to me just not caring about religion. |
This is a perfect comparison.
Did this thought develop over/during conversations with your kids? Or did it just spring forth from your head fully-formed while you were chatting with Chaz? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
casinopete*
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:21 am Post subject: 160 |
|
|
| Antrax wrote: |
| I'm not. I guess you're correct. My perspective when learning the bible was always to think of God as one of us, except with the omnipotence and all that. |
That's a pretty big exception. I'm sure you've thought with more depth what omnipotence and all that would be like, and how atrociously most people would act given such powers. I'd kind of expect you to conclude that TorahGod is really quite a bit less of a bastard than He could be.
| Antrax wrote: |
| There's always the answer "yeah well, he's smarter than you, trust me it wouldn't have worked". But that answer is very unsatisfying to the puzzle that God poses, mostly because it's just synthetic. It has no real content. |
I agree that this is a completely unsatisfactory answer (Why? Because.), but I think all the parent-child analogies that people make to describe it are actually quite convincing. The party with significantly less knowledge really is incapable of competently judging the party who knows what He's doing.
Who are you to call a death unjustified when you can't even draw out leviathan with a hook? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
