Pendragon Mafia GAME OVER

[Sentran]

Jedo, I disagree that the other Mason was voting for Ctorj. It makes far more sense to me that one of the non-voters was the other Mason.
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Sniklac16]

VOTE COUNT

mnowax (3) - zag, sentran, undercover monk
undercover monk (2) Lucresia, mnowax
LIML (1) jedo the jedi

not voting - LIML, raekuul


let me know of any mistakes
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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

[Zag]

[MNOWAX]

[Sentran]

[Sentran]

I'd like to add that while he's trying to be (or look) helpful and posting more than most, Zag is looking to the posters more than the lurkers. If these games have shown me anything, it's that lurking appears scummy to me.
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Undercover Monk]

[Lucresia]

[MNOWAX]

Lucresia is absolutely right in the fact that UM KNEW he was putting Ctorj in the ground. My vote, while quite precarious, was certainly not a death Sentence for Ctorj. This also assumes, of course, scum doesn't decide to HAMMER four posts later after no one responded to Ctorj's argument. My vote would have been off assuming Monk-scum waited just a few hours later.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Undercover Monk]

[Lifeinmomland]

Sometimes I hate computers. This one ate my post I have been working on for a bit now. The gist of which is as follows.

I think MNO places his vote where and when he did with targeted intent. I believe he saw that UM was already set on a pretty solid path against Ctorj, and used UM to kill a townie.

VOTE MNO

The Luc/Quail thing is most likely a play to limit info given to town by the kill. With a possible side affect that we look at Luc. It should be looked at again on Day 3 I believe IF those of us after UM and MNO are wrong.

I think it's possible UM used Jedo introducing the idea that mafia have been caught several times on day 1 as a platform to gain our (by which I mean townies) trust.
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Who is John Gult?

[MNOWAX]

ok since i have been brought to L-1 i shall claim.

I am Adler. nothing more than a vanilla townie. That should sway all of you!
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Lifeinmomland]

unvote

LOL I went upstaris for a snack and came back and saw MNO's post. I don't want mafia using me for a platform to kill another townie. I am hoping for more discussion now that MNO has claimed, I am hoping we can analize the validity of that claim.
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Who is John Gult?

[Zag]

The purpose was not to make you claim, it was to lynch your scummy butt.

I can't say this strongly enough: Do not ever claim until a mass claim can win the game for us. I'm not sure how you can tell that for sure, but I am quite positive that we aren't there, yet. Otherwise, a claim only helps the scum know whom to target.

Fortunately, I don't believe this claim, so I'm not concerned.

[MNOWAX]

heh, i will ALWAYS claim when put at L-1.

every time.

every single time.

absolutely every single time.

unless of course its day one.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Lucresia]

[Undercover Monk]

[raekuul]

R> Vote Count
---
I've been re-reading Day 1, and UM feels more scummy than MNO does at this point.

Post 53 - UM Unvotes, and FoS's Ctorj, citing No Lynch Requesting as a red flag.
Post 54 - Jedo votes Ctorj, placing him at L-2.
Post 56 - MNO votes Ctorj, placing him at L-1.
Post 57 - UM Requests a freeze on Ctorj-voting. 17 Minutes have passed since Ctorj reached L-1.
Post 58 - Ctorj mounts what little defense he can at this point, votes MNO citing his weak justification for voting. 4 Hours, 39 Minutes
Post 59 - Ctorj rephrases his philosophy about lynching on day one, making it easier to understand. 4 hours, 44 Minutes
Post 60 - Quail points out that it's easier for Scum to hide among the town when people vote No Lynch, as we also have the voting record and discussion leading to the lynch to aid our future discussion. 11 hours, 9 minutes
Post 61 - Lucresia, on the whole, simply agrees with Quailman. 11 hours, 51 minutes
Post 62 - UM Hammers Ctorj knowingly, willingly, and in accordance to his earlier request that we wait until Ctorj has at least defended himself. 13 hours, 6 minutes

I find it interesting that we're largely jumping down MNO's throat for putting Ctorj at L-1, and ignoring the fact that UM never really gave him or anyone else a chance to rethink their votes between Freeze and Hammer. Vote: Undercover Monk
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If my math is wrong, please let me know.

[raekuul]

To reduce the likelihood of being called a liar...

If you checked the thread between when MNO put Ctorj at L-1 and when Undercover Monk hammered, and you were voting for Ctorj, why did you not unvote?

[Lucresia]

[MNOWAX]

thats a misspelling. error on my part.

I have ZERO clue on the Pendragon books. Never read them, and I have not looked at the wiki or anything of that nature.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

[Jedo the Jedi]

I see the logic in going after one of these more obviously scummy people first, but I still bet there is scum to be had in the non-Ctorj voters. I'll leave my vote there until I decide on Monk or MNO. So, here's my thoughts on them.

If you are really going to put all this pressure on Monk for being the hammer, you have to consider his perspective. The fact is he was already holding off on voting because it could go to a lynch really quickly, and once he heard Ctorj's defense, he didn't believe it was good enough and placed his vote. I don't think it was a quick hammer as far as those typically go. I mean, Quail had the opportunity to unvote but chose not to do so. Would he have been seen as scummy for that? I'm sure if he hadn't already voted for Ctorj, his vote would have gone on right then and he might have been the hammer. Would he have been seen as scummy for that? Monk's vote looks like it was totally based on logic, and he had already espoused that Ctorj looked scummy and was willing to vote.

My problem with Monk's vote is that I actually don't think voting No Lynch is scummy, and I don't see why he would either. I mean, Ctorj is a solid, logical player. He has his own reasons and perspective, and those have led him to believe No Lynch is a good, viable option on day 1. I (and many) of you simply disagree. To be honest, knowing how most of the players feel about No Lynch, why would a scum do that and draw all that negative attention to themself? Logically, that just doesn't make any sense. (Barring WIFOM arguments.) That's my problem with Quail's vote too. If Quail was alive, I would say both of these have to be suspected for that line of reasoning.

Now, we should all know I believe bandwagoning on day 1 to be perfectly legitimate. That was my reason for voting Ctorj as was Sentran's. (My reason was not because of "being a nemesis" as has incorrectly been cited.) I see nothing wrong with that. Unfortunately, I wasn't around to unvote before the hammer, but I'm not sure that I would have without a claim. (Mason is a pretty solid claim.) The point is I see those as legitimate votes. MNO's vote, however, looks more suspicious. I see the same thing Ctorj saw. It wasn't exactly a bandwagon declaration, though it could easily have been that. It's more the way in which he hopped over there. If he had only placed his vote, I would be equally suspicious. If he had said it was to bandwagon, I would be suspicious if he didn't post that was L-1. I think doing it without that notification to the town is irresponsible bandwagoning and anti-town at the least.

Anyway, those are my reasons for why these two candidates look scummy. I think they are about equal in their scumminess. Both of their responses today have been kind of childish finger pointing rather than solid defenses or attacks.

I really don't like MNO's claim. A vanilla townie claim always seems weak because there is no way to verify without a cop or something, and that takes time and a potentially wasted action. (Of course, that is quite possibly their actual role, but that makes it all the more difficult.) It's kind of like in Sopranos. Three of us claimed vanilla, and it was a sticky mess for the others to sort through because two of them were actually mafia. Plus, I think Alder would be a power role of some kind based on what I found on the wiki. *shrug* I guess we'll only find out the truth when he's dead or the game is over.

Personally, seeing as they are both so equally scummy, I think I would like to have a claim from Monk. If he's scum, maybe we can catch him in some sort of a lie. Otherwise, if he claims some equally weak claim, I'll try to look more closely at their posts. If nothing turns up, my vote will just go on whomever has the most votes by that point.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Zag]

No! Don't claim! At least, don't claim a power role (or lack of it). If you feel that claiming your name would be helpful, I think that is ok. It at least carries a little bit of weight that the scum have to risk guessing at a name that no one else has. On the other hand, Mods often give safe claims, so it doesn't really mean all that much.

But don't claim a role or vanilla. It you're telling the truth, it only helps the scum know whom to target. And it isn't as if you're going to tell the truth if you are scum. You can just claim 'vanilla townie' and it doesn't carry the tiniest bit of weight for the rest of the townies. It is informative, though, to the mafia. They've already killed our doc, don't help them further.

[Lifeinmomland]

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Jedo the Jedi]

I think the risk is worth it here because if we catch scum today, we could potentially do our magical mass claim tomorrow and go for the win. (4-2 seems like good odds, and 5-1 are even better, depending on the setup.)
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Sentran]

That's a pretty big if still, Zag.
I have a thought, but I want to put the thought itself out there for discussion before I/we act upon it. How would people feel about posting their opinions on who a cop should investigate, and who a doctor should protect? I am not claiming to have either of those powers myself. I expect that a lot of people would want the protection for themselves, but since it is across open forum it would limit the scum's ability to swing the vote. I think it could allow a player who is waffling on the decision to see a bit of input from other players, and could create a lot of good conversation along the way.

I know we no longer have a doctor in this game, but I think it could be useful to see who people want to protect anyway.
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Jedo the Jedi]

I'm generally opposed to this sort of thing (like scum lists). I think it helps the scum more than the town because the town doesn't know which people are scum. It just leads to WIFOM. This one seems a little different and might actually be more useful for town, but I'm still not sure. Could somebody pitch me an argument for why this would be beneficial for the town?
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Lucresia]

[Zag]

[Zag]

[Jedo the Jedi]

Well, if I'm not getting a claim from Monk, I have to land my vote on MNO. Of his four posts yesterday (not including the confirm), they all had votes in them and not much else. Then today, he comes out guns slinging and raking Monk over the coals. Like I said, Monk isn't totally clean, but he's not guilty for what MNO put him up for (the hammer). Plus, MNO claims he would have removed his vote on Ctorj if he had only a little more time. What for? What was Ctorj's compelling argument to bring this about? It seems like just another reason to move his vote again. Then, where would he have moved it to? Was someone else appearing overly scummy? At least I can say of Monk that he was using logic and sticking with it, and I believe he allowed enough time. It's just unfortunate he was wrong.

unvote, vote: MNOWAX
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Lifeinmomland]

Um. You are nuts if you think I defended one of them. I will put it in ANOTHER way and see if you get it. I believe that UM KNEW Ctorj was at L1 is the starting point you are missing. I NEVER said that UM didn't know what he was doing. I NEVER said that UM didn't do it on purpose. I SAID ....

[MNOWAX]

[Jedo the Jedi]

I can say that because it was a good eight hours, and Quail definitely had the opportunity to unvote since he actually posted. It's unfortunate Quail's already dead otherwise we could be having this conversation and see how scummy you guys would view him for not unvoting when he had the chance.

I mean, I still don't understand. It's scummy of Monk to drop the hammer on someone he legitimately believed was doing something scummy and of which he had previously made mention? Really? Um, who led a lynch on a doctor last game (Ctorj, incidentally) and was totally town? THIS GUY! That's clearly not the only thing at issue here.

Is there anything else in that bolded section with which you have a problem, or is that all?
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Also, by the way, you have no rebuttal for my questions? I know they are somewhat rhetorical, but if you want to help yourself, you could at least address the issue raised by them.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Sentran]

[Zag]

[raekuul]

As much as I want to say "Zag is right, don't question him", Sentran raises a very valid point. We literally can't trust anyone yet.

Zag: Why Lucresia if UM comes up town, specifically?