WRGPT Strategy discussion

[Zag]

Who is in WRGPT this year? I ask, mostly because I wanted to brag that I just doubled up. This is after another hand it which I pushed all in and we chopped. (There was a straight on board, counterfeiting my flopped two pair and his ---- ARRRRGH! ---- underpair.)

[Antrax]

Nice, but why raise with Ax suited? Are you blocking a further raise to your right?
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[Zag]

You mean preflop? I was first one in; I almost never just limp as first one in, unless it is very early position.

[Antrax]

Why? Is it a pot-building raise?
Also I think semi-bluffing 2/3rds of the pot on the flop would've smoothed out the action in later rounds. Clearly you want to all-in on the last round without it being too much. Betting pot on 3k and then 4k on the resultant 9k isn't as good as betting 2k on 3k and then 7k on the turn, IMO.
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[Zag]

Yes, I agree. I was hoping just to take it on the flop -- I was quite surprised when he called. The turn bet was a blocking bet, because I knew he would bet if I didn't. But I was already wishing I had bet less on the flop.

Preflop I don't like to limp, because then, not only do you have no chance of taking it down right there, but you have no idea what the big blind has. You see a flop of 955, and you can't know that he doesn't have 95.

In early position, I might limp with small pairs, looking for a set, or with a big pair, hoping for a raise after me so I can reraise. But I'll just dump a hand like Axs or small connectors in early position. The last thing I want is to play a drawing hand out of position. If this weren't WRGPT, where you are lucky to get 8 hands in before the stakes go up, I would have dumped the hand without a second thought.

[Antrax]

Really? For less than a % of my stack, I'd limp out of position with any hand that stands a reasonable chance to double me up. Ax suites is one of the best hands for this. If they raise behind you, you can still make an informed decision based on what happens until the action gets to you (usually the informed decision is to fold). I'm just not sure what you're trying to accomplish with the raise: Sklasky argues (correctly, IMO) that raises are not to be made just because a call isn't enough money. You raise to push people out immediately, to build a pot for later rounds, to block a potentially greater raise, etc. So I'm still not sure why you'd raise 3x BB from middle position with a pure drawing hand. All it does is put you against better aces or high pairs that reraise and eat your odds.
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[Zag]

Doubled up again, moving into 5th place (out of 700ish). In the previous hand the flop was checked around, then I bet and folded to a raise on the turn.

[Antrax]

Well done, though I'm not sure I agree with the raise on the flop. The only hand I can see that you want to kick out is a flush draw - but for $6k he'll stick for the implied odds - what would you have done if another club hit on the turn, btw?
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[Zag]

It was the same player that I had folded to on the previous hand, so I was pretty sure he would take the reraise on the flop as "ticked off over folding last hand, I'll re-bluff" raise. For his minimum raise, I put him on either a flush draw or a K that he wasn't that proud of, and he was hoping I would just call and check to him on the turn. Either way, I want him to pay more to see thei turn.

If the flush got there on the turn, I would have been a sad puppy, and check-folded unless his bet left me odds to draw out.

[MNOWAX]

All I'm going to say is that you could have cost yourself a lot of money. You could have easily been the one bemoaning the bad luck by missing the flush draw and left stuck losing to a better ace when it goes check check, or check, you fold to his bet. I would have Folded pre-flop or at the very best limped with such a speculative hand.

Calling the three bet was weird, then betting on that board when the board is paired was just putting you in even more danger of having kicker problems if you hit our ace, or beating beat if high clubs come. Also his range to me seems like he's going to have a better ace than you ( which he did) or he's going to have a moderate pair for a three bet like that Pre-flop. Look at that board, a moderate pair could have easily filled up.

He has shown a lot of strength in this hand, did you think he was going to fold on the turn for $4K when he called your $3K bet on the flop? What do you do if he raises there? You have 25% of our chips invested into the pot (7800 of a 30K stack if I am doing my math right)

I'm glad you got really lucky and got the double up, but I think the hand was misplayed a little, because you could have been easily beat there.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Antrax]

MNOWAX, do you have a lot of experience playing deep stack poker?
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[MNOWAX]

Yes I do. My last Tournament win was a Deep Stack event at Turning Stone about six months ago
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[MNOWAX]

P.S. I did a lot of editing on my post because I have coffee now.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Antrax]

So, do you not pay %1 of your stack of a chance of doubling up? A3s isn't a speculative hand, it's a hand that either doubles you up or you run away not losing much. I seriously doubt Zag would've bet the same with an Ace on the flop and no prospects for flush, because his hand isn't "weak ace" it's "nut flush draw" from the get-go. No two clubs, fold immediately (except for wacky things like 33 or hitting a 245, etc). The only problem is the pair on the board on the flop, but nobody reraises with 85 and you can't live in fear of the one hand that beats you (88). Turn and river cards are of no worry because an overpair would've reraised and not called on the flop. Once he calls on the flop he's most likely to hold a 5 (so your draw favors to pay big) and in decreasing order of likeliness: 8, 77/66, something like 67s with no prospects for flush, a worse flush draw, a shitty player holding something like AKo.
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[MNOWAX]

I think its goes in the speculative column when the guy three bets you, sorry. I'm not considering that the guy flopped the nuts, but I am considering that the range that this guys has to 3-bet preflop is not doing well against A3s. I agree 1% isn't much, but he really paid 2.5% to see that flop.

I'm also not looking to double up here, I'm playing small ball poker. Pot control, and being able to release when it gets out of control has served me well in Deep stack affairs.
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MNOWAX

[Zag]

There's another factor that you're not considering which is unique to this email tournament: You only get three or four hands per level, so you pretty much have to count on getting lucky fairly quickly. In a live game, or in a real tournament, I never would have drawn to a flush with a paired board.

[Zag]

[Antrax]

He can just as likely put you on Kx. I think it's also important to consider what hands are out there that will pay you. Many of them would've folded to the flop raise.
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[Zag]

True. But I did what felt right to me at the time. And it's hard to argue with success.

[MNOWAX]

not every winning decision is a correct decision.
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MNOWAX

[Antrax]

MNOWAX, would you fold A3s with a stack of 100k with blinds 5-10 and somebody on your right makes it 30 to go? 50 to go? 100 to go?
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[MNOWAX]

If you have 100K chips at 5-10, something is horrendously wrong,( or horrendously right if you are the only one with it!) You'll be hard pressed to lay anything down to a 100 raise. I think that is a little irrelevant, though, because we aren't talking that deep stacked of a tournament.

The facts are this: Zag had a 300BB stack, and he called 2.5% of his stack out of position to a three bet. He then bet 3K into a 3K pot and get's called He makes a 4K bet into a 9K pot on the turn, and shoves 21K on the river

I just don't see how Zag can call a preflop bet there when it was three bet, but since he did so be it I I can understand the post flop bet, but What I dont get is that turn bet more than anything. What happens if he pushes there? You're not getting odds to call. The bet size won't illicit a fold, so you're hoping for a call and catch? eh.

THat's where I'm coming from, how bout you guys?
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

I agree, MNO. I would never have called the reraise preflop in a normal tournament. As I said, in this one, the blind go up so quickly that you have to get in there and you have to get lucky. You're lucky to get 4 hands in before they go up again.

[MNOWAX]

on a separate note, are we the only three on the GL that play poker? that surprises me.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Antrax]

[MNOWAX]

[Zag]

I totally agree (as does Phil Hellmuth, who probably provides a better endorsement than mine). In something I've seen by him (I forget where) he talks about techniques for keeping the pot small early in a tournament. His goal is never to be all in early, unless he has the nuts and there are no cards left to come out. He doesn't even like to be even when he is a significant favorite.

[Antrax]

Zag, that's important mostly if you think you're much better than everyone else at the tournament. If I were to suddenly appear entered in the WSOP, I'd look to push in better-than-even-money situations a lot.
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[MNOWAX]

how many years have you guys been playing? are you online players or Live players? TOurnament or Cash game?Favorite game to play?
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Antrax]

I'm mostly a talker. Technically I've been playing for 12 years, but out of those 3 was just with friends and I had no clue what's going on. I read my first book (one of the Sklansky for beginners) 7 years ago, had a brief stint of playing online for a living, got a better job and stopped altogether, then the level online got much higher and it was more interesting, so I returned to play a bit as a hobby, but mostly what I can offer amounts to a whole lot of book learning, if it wasn't obvious from my posts.
There's almost no place to play live in Israel - it's illegal and that's what the games look like. For a while I thought about joining a live game some guys from work are running, but a) it's on a Thursday which eats up a "going out" night which sucks and b) most of them are both bad players and intolerable at the table. I hate those situations when people babble nonsense and the smart thing to do is shut up and take their money.
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[Zag]

I play mostly online, but I have played in probably 30 or 40 live tournaments. I've finished in the money in about one-third of them; won outright in only one, but I was in the final deal at the end in five others (that is, I got an equal share, split three or four ways, of the top position spots). I also finished second in the second biggest tournament I was in, $100 buy-in, 197 people started, at Foxwoods. In the biggest tournament I was in, $220 buy-in deep stack with over 500 people starting, I played terrifically and trapped an over-aggressive player with KK vs KQ preflop, only to be retrapped by the AA behind me (who also limped, waiting to reraise the overaggressive player).

I've been at it for a good 20 years, but a lot more reading of book than actual playing until the past 6 years or so. My online play is mostly live games, not tournaments, deep stack $0.25/$0.50 hold'em ($100 buy-in). I go in bursts, where I play a lot for a month or two, then I don't play for several months.

Back in the Party Poker days I used to crush the Omaha High pot limit game, where I would play 4 games and just peddle the nuts. I took about $4000 out of that game before Party Poker quit serving the U.S. The cash machine has dried up, because people are not the ginormous idiots that they used to be. I still play it now and then, but not for serious money.

[Zag]

Here's a funny hand. It's still in progress.

[Antrax]

The bummer is it'll probably be a 2-3 way split between aces, each looking to trap the other
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[MNOWAX]

Or the fifth queen will pop out.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Jack_Ian]

Are one-eyed jacks wild?

[MNOWAX]

no, but if a four comes out and you pay the pot, they deal another river card.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[MatthewV]

In December you had twice the funds!

[Zag]

Well, I'm finally out, but I'm pretty proud of how I did it. I was all in with the other players dominated. If the poker gods were fair (HAH!) I would have more than tripled up, here.

To set this up, 4 of the 5 hands before this one there were several limpers (including me in 3 of those), then one person made a big bet and the limpers all folded. I felt very good that we'd get a big bet behind me, and I was planning to come over the top. I didn't expect what actually happened, but I was not terribly unhappy about it.

[MatthewV]

At least the poker gods didn't deliver Qh for the final card.

[Stevenn]

A tough day, but it initially appeared as though the Poker Gods were smiling today. Hello to cell phone spy software everyone.