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Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:24 pm    Post subject: 41 Reply with quote

Yes, BRITAIN is the intended third member of that set.

TATE: LIVERPOOL, MODERN, BRITAIN

which leaves BURGESS, SHADOWs, SCREW for the other three positively identified sets.
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Suspence
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: 42 Reply with quote

So, then:

Method 1 - Same word:
MODERN
Secondary school
Since the Middle Ages
State of the art
SCREW
Prison guard
Metal fastener
Trick somebody
BURGESS
English Freeman
Famous fossil shale
Park in Southwark

Method 2 - Solutions form a group:
LIVERPOOL
Boer War battle - SPION KOP
Carla Lane series - LIVER BIRDS
Canova sculpture - THE 3 GRACES
THE SHADOWS
Austen family - BENNET
23rd Regiment of Foot - WELCH
Paranoid android - MARVIN
?????
???????
???????
???????

Method 3 - Traditional 3x3 connection:
BRITAIN
Out of the ordinary - GREAT
Fictional Mouse - LITTLE
Hastings or Waterloo - BATTLE
?????
???????
???????
???????
?????
???????
???????
???????

Unsolved (Confirmed in bold):
Compass point - WEST
Length of cricket pitch - CHAIN
Used to play music - INSTRUMENT
Shakespearean Prince - HAL
Member of U2 - BONO, EDGE CLAYTON MULLEN
Royal residence - PALACE, CASTLE WINDSOR
Type of accent - ACUTE, GRAVE, BROGUE, CIRCUMFLEX
Confine to one place - RESTRICT INCARCERATE FIX PIN
To judge again - RECONSIDER REEVALUATE REDEEM RETRY REHEAR

2nd Level (using one from each group above):
TATE
Modern
Liverpool
Britain
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Last edited by Suspence on Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:37 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: 43 Reply with quote

Let's try to clear some of those clues up a bit more.

Currently you don't have the right answers for
CONFINE TO ONE PLACE
TO JUDGE AGAIN

You do have the correct answers for the other clues somewhere amongst your guesses. To try and narrow it down a little (or maybe a lot!):

CONFINE TO ONE PLACE (6)
MEMBER OF U2 (4)
ROYAL RESIDENCE (6)
SHAKESPEAREAN PRINCE (3)
TO JUDGE AGAIN (6)
TYPE OF ACCENT (5)
USED TO PLAY MUSIC (10)
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Suspence
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:38 pm    Post subject: 44 Reply with quote

I've edited that info into my post above.

You list both "Confines to one place" and "To judge again" in both lists, where we do and do not have the correct answer. I'm assuming these are meant to be only in the "do not" list?
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Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:57 pm    Post subject: 45 Reply with quote

You are quite right. I wasn't thinking straight.
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Vagrant
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:31 am    Post subject: 46 Reply with quote

To judge again - REMAND?
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Oscar
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject: 47 Reply with quote

I'd be inclined to think that 'judge again' might be RE-MARK
Also 'confine to one place' might be ANCHOR (or SECURE or PINION)

Now we might have
SHARP
Remark
Instrument
Edge

and at the second level
EYE
Screw
Shadow
Sharp

We would then have
2nd level
TATE
EYE
?
(The London Eye maybe, to go with the London Tate?)

Ungrouped
WEST
CHAIN
HAL
Royal residence - CASTLE/PALACE/?
Type of accent - ACUTE/GRAVE/LOCAL/?
Confine to one place - ANCHOR/SECURE/FASTEN/?

where Anchor and Chain look obvious bed-fellows, perhaps forming a set with Castle as in Forecastle, the area at the front of a ship where the chain and anchor would be kept? That would leave West, Hal and
'accent' to be combined.
[edit] Just realised that 'Cutting' is at least as good as 'Sharp' for EDGE/REMARK/INSTRUMENT so I'll have a little rethink[/edit]
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Oscar
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:41 pm    Post subject: 48 Reply with quote

Total rethink failure...

Even if either of the suggestions in my last post are correct (SHARP/CUTTING) I can't see where they're going. Assuming it was Sharp => Eye I've failed to force another London connection. Tate, from a British standpoint, would seem to suggest the Gallery, or Catherine Tate, or maybe the last 3 words combine to give one or two words? Burgess suggests 'Burgess Hill', Anthony or Guy, but I can't find any convincing connections with any of those.

I also tried to link GRAVE-yard and HAL-yard with another but failed. (Castle-yard isn't convincing)

I've gone down too many dead-ends and am ready to give up...
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Suspence
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: 49 Reply with quote

Not that I've been helpful to this point, but I'm out of ideas as well. I'd chalk it up to non-Britishness, but even Oscar is stumped.
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Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: 50 Reply with quote

Fair enough. I find puzzles that get stopped dead to be as interesting as ones that get solved, as they often show me where I could improve things like clueing.

The third of the "group" sets is probably quite difficult even for a British person, but it contains CHAIN and WEST. SHARP/CUTTING are actually about as opposite the intended answer as you could get. </hint>

And upon reflection, I think the very final stage of the puzzle (that gives you the answer) isn't really valid, so I will accept all the brickbats you wish to throw at me. Revenge most foul!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: 51 Reply with quote

Quote:
SHARP/CUTTING are actually about as opposite the intended answer as you could get.

BLUNT ??

Nothing comes to mind on CHAIN/WEST but I've only just seen that they're linked...
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Quailman
His Postmajesty



PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:41 pm    Post subject: 52 Reply with quote

Key? - Chain, West, note? is Note a kind of accent. I know notes can be accented.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:47 am    Post subject: 53 Reply with quote

I was thinking about a word to link chain and west and came up blank. KEY could be the answer...but not sure about note.

I'll have another look at this.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:57 am    Post subject: 54 Reply with quote

I've found a reference to KEY - ANCHOR, CHAIN, WEST

If right then at least that's another group completed?

Is this the final one?
HAL
Royal residence - CASTLE/PALACE/?
Type of accent - ACUTE/GRAVE/LOCAL/?
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Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:38 am    Post subject: 55 Reply with quote

I am surprised that "Confine to one place" has caused such trouble, especially since I associate this usage of the word with the US..

No, KEY isn't the right group. I'm clearly going to have to give you the third one of the set, which is PALACE.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:03 am    Post subject: 56 Reply with quote

So is it KEY - Palace, West, Chain ???
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Elethiomel
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:29 am    Post subject: 57 Reply with quote

I would guess so, and that the final set is

YARD - HAL, GRAVE, JAIL
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Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:16 am    Post subject: 58 Reply with quote

I didn't make it clear enough, no KEY is not the word you want for that group (PALACE, CHAIN, WEST)

And YARD isn't the other one either although it does seem alarmingly plausible. I think I've already said that CONFINE TO ONE PLACE was 6 letters not 4 though, so it's not JAIL.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject: 59 Reply with quote

Gate?

Jailyard didn't seem to make sense...but I'm not sure about anything now.
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Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:06 pm    Post subject: 60 Reply with quote

Let's see if I can confuse you completely. Revenge most foul!

Three sets where the answer is the same: BURGESS, MODERN, SCREW
Three sets where the items are part of a group: LIVERPOOL, SHADOW, ???
Three sets which have extra words: BLUNT*, BRITAIN, ???

Stage two takes one answer from each of these three sets to make the new answers for the final set. The only one of these you have found so far is TATE.

The other two initial groups are PALACE/CHAIN/WEST and GRAVE/HAL/???.

*I accept that SHARP was equally good but doesn't work for the puzzle. Which is another reason why this isn't an especially good one.
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Elethiomel
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: 61 Reply with quote

SHALLOW - GRAVE, HAL, ???
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Suspence
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: 62 Reply with quote

Scurra wrote:
I am surprised that "Confine to one place" has caused such trouble, especially since I associate this usage of the word with the US.


DETAIN? If so, sorry El, it doesn't seem to fit with SHALLOW.
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Vagrant
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:28 pm    Post subject: 63 Reply with quote

INTERN doesn't fit with SHALLOW either.
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Vagrant
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:30 pm    Post subject: 64 Reply with quote

But GROUND does!
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Suspence
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:23 pm    Post subject: 65 Reply with quote

Vagrant wrote:
But GROUND does!

It does? Based on Google, it's the name of a horror movie, but I've never heard it used. HALLOWED GROUND, yes, but not SHALLOW GROUND.
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Thok*
Guest



PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject: 66 Reply with quote

Scurra wrote:
The other two initial groups are PALACE/CHAIN/WEST


Google tells me these are all famous piers in Brighton. I wouldn't have thought to guess that.
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Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:35 pm    Post subject: 67 Reply with quote

Well now you've learned something that you can usefully forget.

Yes, the answers to the last two first-stage sets are PIERS and SHALLOW.
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Thok*
Guest



PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:32 am    Post subject: 68 Reply with quote

Anthony: Burgess, Piers, Blunt?
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Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: 69 Reply with quote

Yes, that's right.
Now find a link for SCREW, SHALLOW, SHADOW.
(clue: it's not a very sophisticated link! And it's the weak link in the whole puzzle.)

You have TATE and ANTHONY for the other two in this last set.


p.s. there was a nice 3x3x3 in the MIT Hunt this year, although the presentation made it a little easier since we were given the initial groups. Well, sort of.
http://web.mit.edu/puzzle/www/12/phantom_of_the_operator/set_theory/
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novice
No harm. Pun intended!



PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: 70 Reply with quote

Scurra wrote:
Now find a link for SCREW, SHALLOW, SHADOW.
(clue: it's not a very sophisticated link! And it's the weak link in the whole puzzle.)


EYE?
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Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:30 am    Post subject: 71 Reply with quote

No, it works entirely differently to the others (which is one reason why it's a weak link.) Look at those words again.
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Thok
Oh, foe, the cursed teeth!



PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:28 pm    Post subject: 72 Reply with quote

I assume there's some word play involving the s and w. STOW? SW (SOUTHWEST)?
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Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:35 pm    Post subject: 73 Reply with quote

Exactly. If the puzzle worked properly, the last part would be a word of the form S---W (especially given how the other two bits work.) But it isn't...
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:02 am    Post subject: 74 Reply with quote

I got home last Friday and was mulling the puzzle...and came up with SHALLOW for HAL and GRAVE...which was both a relief (that I had a link) and a disappointment (that it took me so long!).
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Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject: 75 Reply with quote

Since this one died, here's how it was supposed to end:

ANTHONY (EDEN), EDEN(TATE)*, SW(EDEN)

You can throw the brickbats at me now...
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Suspence
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:01 am    Post subject: 76 Reply with quote

I've never heard of Anthony Eden or edentate or brickbats Razz
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Thok*
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:10 am    Post subject: 77 Reply with quote

I feel like the confirmation that SW was correct was a bit ambiguous. (I sort of interpreted it as though SW wasn't right at all and didn't even try looking for an ANTHONY/TATE/SW connection.)

There were definitely some good connections here, though.
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Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject: 78 Reply with quote

I agree with you. In a perfect world, the answer would have been "S(EDEN)W". In retrospect I wish I'd looked for SW---- words instead. But the three movies just fitted together nicely.
Trying to make the three sets fit the same three general patterns might have been a constraint too far...
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Last edited by Scurra on Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:13 am    Post subject: 79 Reply with quote

One of the difficulties I found with this was the mass of potential answers for each clue...whittling them away until the right ones remained was the major problem for keeping going. A team effort was vital for this.

I shall retain my brickbats for a more worthy cause.

Of course, I HAVE heard Anthony Eden and edentate
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