Winter has begun... (Game over!)

[ohcapt13]

Jedo the Jedi

[Jedo the Jedi]

Oh, Monk. My problem here is I really don't have anything to say against your argument. It isn't very convincing to me, but that only makes ohcapt null in my eyes. I'll guarantee a lynch, but I'm still going to hold out for Durryn.

Can anybody give a good reason why Durryn isn't a good lynch? There doesn't seem to be much support...

ohcapt, thanks for the definition a seven year old would know. Now, the actual question is "before what?" Before this game? Before her aunt died? Before her thirteenth game of mafia? That part was left unstated and therefore contributes to the ambiguity.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[itisally]

As for my feelings on the Durryn wagon:

I find the arguments against him... how was it put to him.... unsatisfactory.

While Jedo and Cloudrunner have attempted to refute Durryn's answers to their accusations I am unmoved. I think there are faulty assumptions. The fact that his wagon fails to gather steam with those that I have a town leaning on is reassuring. The fact that the people who level accusations against him are on my questionable list definitely works against them.

I am satisfied with his explanations for now, even if they are not the choices that I would have made. It is mostly a natural read for me.
_________________
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[Sentran]

Wow, busy day! Sorry this took me so long...


Day 4, 13 alive, 7 to lynch
Deadline: Monday, 9 April
Official Vote Count

[ohcapt13]

I did explain. read entire post.

[3iff]

Just noticed the deadline. For info, I'm away from the net from Thursday evening until Wednesday morning (extended Easter holiday at work) so don't expect any postings from me during that time. There shouldn't be any further disruptions to my net access after Easter.

Of the current vote candidates...

cloudRunner. Somehow my views of the last couple of days have matched those of cloudRunner...entirely co-incidental I guess, but I don't see him as a concern.

Durryn. Can't agree with Jedo about this being a 'good' lynch. Not at the moment, anyway.

Ohcapt13. Seems to be developing a following, mainly over a semantic argument about "not being mafia before", oh, and voting for a vouched-for townie. There's also the UM theory about Ohcapt13 and Jedo being mafia (post 1311).

Captin Aniima. Has itisally vouching for her but have a slightly uneasy feeling that heavily protecting a new player is looking a bit too overprotective.

Of the others, Spyrl has disappeared. She makes a remark about being someone "the town doesn't want to lose" and then slips into the shadows. Clever or suspicious (or just too busy to post?).

There again, it seems most players are quiet because there's almost nothing to go on. Of the 4 current candidates, none really stand out as obvious targets, but...

Ok, in order to see how strong UM's opinion of Ohcapt13 is, Vote: Ohcapt13

[Jedo the Jedi]

ohcapt, I will tell you this once, you will treat me as an intelligent, competent human being just as I am treating you like one. I have read your entire post(s). I have read Aniima's post(s). We are arguing semantics.

I can clearly see what you are trying to put into Aniima's mouth, but she never said what the "before" preceded. It's not there. Ever. The two "before"s you capitalized in your post actually have nothing to do with hers. She didn't say before what, though it is implied that she means "this game." If she means "this game," then she is simply giving commentary on her mafia history which is what Deception was asking for. When I gave my answer to Deception, I didn't include information about this game because that would be foolish and not actually what he wanted to know.

So, I know you see some connection between this ambiguous statement and her previous statements about being a n00b, but there isn't anything. You can make conjectures all you want and read into her words, but there is nothing there to suspect someone of scum. In fact, she is answering different people, and while one can easily extrapolate the answer to Deception's question from her other answer about this being her first game, she opted to answer Deception's question more directly and with a separate statement.

I'm finished with this. I cannot foresee ever supporting scumhunting which is based on semantics and reading into word choice.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Undercover Monk]

wow so much to respond to I guess i will start with Zag cause reading your latest posts have me banging my head against the wall as we argue in circles.

The first thing is since I led this wagon how can you for a moment think Im gonna let off. If someone comes up with a better candidate (their are good ones but not great IMHO) then I will switch otherwise hang him high. You must really have a poor opinion of my abilities if you would think even if i was scum that i would jump off the bandwagon THAT I STARTED. I am insulted sir, while I may not be the best player on the forum I am neither a noob or a moron Thanks.


Then we get to your whole me and jedo conspiracy. You say that its phony and that jedo while you have a bad feeling about him is cleared cause he tried to derail the Amb wagon. I very nearly convinced people to lynch 1st Lucresia then MNO instead of deception yet this action is not considerd towny enough to give me a pass on your scumdar. Im not asking for a pass on that mind you cause a well known scum tactic is to become a vocal ally of a player you know to be town. I would just like a little consistency. I also have vauge unesay feelings about jedo (we should be agreeing not fighting over this issue.) If your going to slam me you better not be giving jedo a pass for the same action. so yeah...sorry for the long rantt but you have me frustrated and insulted.

The fact that durryn is still alive is rather surprising he seems to always have a few people suspicious all game but for reasons that I have already stated I dont think he is scum. his voting of lucresia is odd though. Cloudrunner also makes me uneasy with a completely different post that I think I have already quoted somewhere.

But yeah.....

[Undercover Monk]

Finally found the post ohcapt was talking about (the one with animala's before answer) i see what your trying to get us to believe but slips of the tongue are rare in a forum setting where you can look over every post before you submit it.

Plus I think it was quite obvious what her intent was and I like jedo believe you are putting words in her mouth as a way to derail your own bandwagon. Todays timeline will be very helpful, I think, when it comes to future days.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Durryn]

[3iff]

UM: Ok, I believe you are determined to see off Ohcapt13...that's fine. Sorry if I've maligned you. Don't you dare jump off this bandwagon though...

[Garou_Kinfolk]

I've gone through OhCapt's ISO and am not really sure what to make of it. Not really getting a gut read on him one way or the other either. He is at L-2 at the moment though. Hope he isn't going to take another 10 day break. I found a few of those in his ISO.
_________________
Most posts made from my phone.

[Zag]

UM, my post was not meant to be insulting, but instead to manipulate you, primarily in the one case where you and ohcapt are both scum. Consider it from my point of view:

Possibility 1. You're both town: My comments are not likely to change your actions at all. You're taking your best guess and my comments are not likely to change your opinion.

Possibility 2. UM is town, ohcapt is scum. Ditto, since you don't really have any way to tell these two cases apart. (I'm hoping that this is the actual case we are dealing with. I was about to say that if/when he flips scum, it will do a lot for your credibility, but I'm not sure I'm willing to say that. We're getting to the point in the game where I'm expecting to see some busing amongst the scum. It certainly won't hurt your credibility.)

Possibility 3. UM is scum, ohcapt is town: My comments are unlikely to change your action: you'd be looking to lynch him if you could, and would just hope to withstand the heat tomorrow. My comment would only change things if you could switch to another townie with a better chance of getting a majority. Then you'd kill ohcapt overnight and try to declare yourself the hero for derailing the bandwagon on him after your change of heart. It is really unlikely for my comments to matter at all in this case, but if they do, it is slightly for the better.

Possibility 4. You're both scum: You were just distancing, and my comments have now locked you in. Since (in this case) I want to see ohcapt hang, locking you into helping that happen is a big win.

I started to suspect the last case because I didn't really think that the evidence you presented was the best evidence against ohcapt. It isn't that yours was not valid, just that there was (IMO) stronger evidence out there. It's a typical scum move, when busing, to present real but weak evidence and hope that others punch holes in it. However, I'm starting to come around that the whole word-twisting might be more significant than I thought at first. At least, more than just you seems to think so.

Anyway, my point is that I made the comments thinking, "This won't matter at all if UM is town, but could possibly have a beneficial effect, for the town, if UM is scum." There was no insult intended.

[Undercover Monk]

tempted to unvote and revote just to be contrary, 3iff.

Durryn I apologize if you had posted the answer several times I had never been that interested in your wagon having my own agendas I was trying to push forward. please dont take it personnally. Mafia discussions tend to be circular in nature always coming back to the same few points unless proven you are innocent by your death.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Undercover Monk]

what I meant Zag was it was an obvious trap. But perhaps thats cause I am town and see ohcapts wagon as mine and not one im likely to abandon anyway. so to me it seemed like elmer fudd or Yosimite Sam setting a trap for bugs bunny. Im just chomping on a carrot shaking my head while you try to get me to hold a stick of dynamite that you painted orange.

If I was scum you couldnt scare me into bussing a fellow scum. At least I dont think you could. Plus I was the one who led the charge when their was a perfectly good durryn wagon to be had. so I just didnt think their was much to be gained. but oh well we may revisit this later. for now lets lynch us some noob scum.


also I did say that ohcapt was putting words in anima's mouth. I just wanted to look it up before I made my own judgement. that just adds to the already scummy voting and lurking. I must say this has turned into a very fruitful day from its lackluster start.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Jedo the Jedi]

Durryn, I understand this is frustrating for you because you think you are repeating yourself, but from our perspective, you really aren't giving us the answers we seek. The question is why Lucresia as opposed to anybody else who wasn't Deception/MNO. You say because you thought she would give good info. Here was a response by you to which I also responded.

[spyrl]

Sorry for not posting earlier, this last week was insanely busy with real life and work, and I didn’t get a chance to get on like I had intended. That said, I will try not to drag back too many “dead horses.”

UM, I have never been a bandwagoner. Bandwagoning is what Novice did repeatedly, hopping on and off his votes with little to no reasoning. When I place my vote on someone, it’s due to my own reasons, not the fact that there happens to be other votes on someone I find suspicious. My vote for Amb was a good example. In post 1158 I reiterated my suspicions, backed up by quotes. At that time I was still processing all of my thoughts and suspicions, which is why I didn’t vote for anyone at that time. I voted the next time I was able to get on and read through all of the new posts. I don't tend to post a ton of things to begin with, and my ability to post for this game has been hindered by a ton of real life things I hadn’t taken into account like jobs, family things, and the fact that I don't have internet on my phone to be able to check in and post 24/7.

Yes 3iff, I did mean lose, not loose.

[Garou_Kinfolk]

I just want to set the timeline down. It seems that people are getting mixed up with Durryns votes. No I'm not defending him.

Deception claimed Ned.
3 minutes later Durryn unvotes.
2 days later Durryn votes Deception again.
8 minutes later he unvotes again.

As far as I can find he doesn't vote for Deception again.
_________________
Most posts made from my phone.

[spyrl]

This is what I came up with:
Posts:
992: Deception claimed
993: Unvote
1042: Vote Deception
1043: unvote
1069: Vote Lucresia
1124: Unvote Lucresia, vote Deception
1131: Unvote Deception, vote Lucresia
_________________
"And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five? A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head." Terry Pratchett, Maskerade
Discworld Mafia is here!

[Garou_Kinfolk]

My mistake. I found the mistake on my end. His vote was a little hidden. It's hard to see bold on my phone when I zoom out to see the whole post. Also the votes were in the middle of a paragraph.

Timeline update:
Deception claimed Ned.
3 minutes later Durryn unvotes.
2 days later Durryn votes Deception again.
8 minutes later he unvotes again.
5 hours before lynch Durryn votes for Deception.
30 minutes before lynch Durryn unvotes and votes for Lucresia.
_________________
Most posts made from my phone.

[3iff]

[Undercover Monk]

wow I didnt realize Durryn flip-flopped that many times he does have some explaining to do. I wont add too much to this cause the rest of you guys have this under control.


@spyrl
Bandwagonning with good reason is still bandwagonning. Its the whole role claim argument all over again. A good scum doesnt just vote whoever has the most votes without reason. they make up reasons some times very logical ones. Thats why the the 3rd vote on a person is in general more scummy then the first. and why if you hammer a townie then you are automatically suspected even if you had good reasons to hammer. Bandwagonning is bandwagonning especially if you are not offering new info. And notice I focused on ohcapt not you cause his was more blatant.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[itisally]

Deception’s Claim @ Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:27 pm Post subject: 992
Players who flip-flopped on Deception/ Lucresia

CloudRunner:
Deception: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:51 pm (Deceptions reads are BS)
Unvote: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:52 pm (no reason, talking about MNOWAX)
MNOWAX: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:14 am (looking for Zag)
Lucrecia: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:44 am (been busy, this looks good)
Deception: Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:26 pm (asking for claim, go with what we know)
Lucresia: Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:39 pm (doesn’t want anymore claims)
Deception: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:16 pm (to tie up the count so Lucresia will go?)

itisally
Lucresia: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:38 pm (Lurker Lynch)
Deception: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:19 pm (he is deceptive but I’m not dedicated)
Lucresia: Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:52 pm (believe claim, get rid of dead weight)

Durryn
Deception: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:06 pm (agrees with Cloudrunner, suspicions from day 1)
Unvote: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:30 pm (believes claim)
Deception: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:10 am (theory about game setup, privy/small council as mafia?)
Unvote: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:18 am (discards council theory as Renly was town)
Lucresia: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:55 pm (policy: lurker lynch, confirm other masons)
Deception: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:05 pm (rather lose Deception if I have to lose a townie-Frustrated)
Lucresia: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:21 pm (seeking minimal damage, hates both options)

I just pulled the reasons from thier vote post directly so I wasn't taking things out of context too much.

Is it possible thatDurryn hadn't noticed how small the Lucricia wagon had gotten as the last official vote count had 7 votes on her. I just don't think he is faking this level of frustration this consistantly.
_________________
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[Garou_Kinfolk]

Guess I'm going with my gut this game, and my gut says Durryn is more town then scum. Can't say much for the rest of the town right now, but I'll keep feeling out everyone.
_________________
Most posts made from my phone.

[MNOWAX]

When i think someone gets angry about a game, especially when pressure is being put on it tend to scream more scum than town. I see that is happening with durryn, especially with post 1370.

That is the ONLY thing i can see here at this point. so, Vote Durryn unless something else comes up.
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[ohcapt13]

Just a couple things.
I have people voting on me who believe me to be putting words into Capt Aniima's mouth. OK. I figured some people wouldn't agree. And that scum would defend scum. That part of the game I get.

Then I have a couple people who vote for me to try and discover something about another player. Not sure how this works? I saw the vote till someone claims the last couple of days and that had a clear purpose. The other player in question, UM, said he thinks I have made a safe vote. How is that such a strong defense that people voted me just to try and find something. That to me sounds like fishing and I do not like being the bait.
But I guess that's one of the strategies in the game and how the game works.
The fact that this now has the effect of UM voting me, is a clear answer to that question though. And it shows the strategy in this case seems to have worked.

I also can how this being my first personal read and claim with my thread history would come as a huge WOW to some. But I am hoping this is seen only as a maturing, wants to be more vocal in the game thing, and not an unintentional flag raiser.

I have two people on my Scum list right now. In no particular order they are:
itisally
Captin Aniima

Jedo I am not trying in anyway to belittle you or your intelligence. I added the emoticons to let it be known I was trying to be sarcastic about the definition. As to the read the whole post I think that comes as a bit of a miss-understanding. I was referring to and only to that one post with my BEFORE statement. If you were asking me to clarify whether I meant before in the thread or just the specific post in question, I am sorry if I didn't catch that earlier.

I would also like to address this statement
Undercover Monk

[cloudRunner]

[ohcapt13]

[quote="cloudRunner"][quote="ohcapt13"]I am not a Lannister. If you vote my lynching through, you will lose another townie.[/quote]
There's so much I could say about this but then I'd get lynched for "going off flavor again" so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut.[/quote]

Lannister is Mafia
Mafia is Lannister

I thought we had agreed on that. What is more is there for you to say?
_________________
A cannon is a tube with deadly intentions!!

[ohcapt13]

[Durryn]

Ally has now fully answered (quite correctly I might add) the question everyone had about my voting. I still feel my votes were straight forward, concise, and very clear.

I still believe MNO and Zag to be town. In fact my entire Scum list is:

Jedo (never trust a Jedi, bunch of jack booted thugs)
cloudRunner
3iff
_________________
If there's anything around here more important than my ego, I want it caught and shot now! - Zaphod Beeblebrox

[Captin Aniima]

confirm vote cloudRunner

Still thinking but throughout this entire day I have only come close to being sure about one person and that is cloudRunner.
_________________
Just sayin... The sky is blue.

[itisally]

I'll comment on flavor!

I am not certain that all Lanisters are scum. Ceirsi and Joffrey (Baratheon) for sure; Jamie, Lancel, and Tywin probably are. But Kevan and Tyrion less likely and the children Myrcella (Baratheon) and Tommen (Baratheon)even less as they are more used as pawns in the game. Come to think of it Lancel may have been just a pawn too and anyway, Sentran used him for flavor in Ceirsi's death scene.
(note that the Baratheons here are Ceirsi’s children)

On top of that you can't discount the people who were not Lannisters that were on Ceirsi's side, for example Petyr Baelish and Ilyn Payne.

It is one of the great things about this theme. There are so many possibilities that the flavor itself keeps us all guessing.

Durryn---Can you give me more details about your scum list. There has to be more to it then a name.

Aniima---You too, more details please?

I realize that I may be asking you to repeat yourselves, but there is so much to sort through it helps to be reminded.
_________________
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[Garou_Kinfolk]

Just wanted to post a couple of things at the moment.

First: Who, no matter how much pressure they receive, will NOT claim? I'm just curious about this.

Second: After much thought, and remembering claims and other things that have been posted, here is my scum(ish) list (These aren't in any particular order.)

CloudRunner
Jedo the Jedi
UndercoverMonk

Those that I'm iffy on because of little to no read are:
3iff

MNOWAX could go either way.

Finally: Ally said something that got my attention recently about the flavor. The queen was the Godfather. Logic would dictate that the rest of the scum would be followers of hers, with the sk being seen as someone who could be scum but not under her control (Jamie Lanister for example).
_________________
Most posts made from my phone.

[cloudRunner]

I've noticed you've basically never voted for anyone this entire game. You're a confirmed townie so not sure what you're afraid of, you've pretty much got lynch immunity anyway.

It's spyrl who should be more concerned about whom she votes, and she has conveniently put it out there that she won't vote if she doesn't feel comfortable with the "options".

You two are the only ones left with a vote to cast. And winter is coming... (monday night).
_________________
Forever is such an unpleasant word

[Zag]

I have agree with CloudRunner that you, a confirmed townie, should vote, even if you are not that sure. Consider that even a random vote from a townie is going to be better for us than any vote from a scum. I don't feel all that great about my current vote, but it's the best I have so far. I'm still considering switching to Durryn, based on the arguments against him. itisally's timeline certainly makes him seem scummy, or maybe just indecisive as hell.

For now, I'm leaving the vote where it is, in spite of misgivings. Garou, I recommend that you make your best judgement and place a vote, as well. A vote from you is at least not a vote from scum.

[ohcapt13]

There has been a lot of speculation on Durryns flip flopping. I have seen a few people vote, unv-ote, re-vote, etc. etc. etc.. And the big FOS from everyone is about him switching between a certain couple people. All I see is indecisiveness. If we vote Durryn for changing his vote between people, then pretty much everybody should vote for themselves.

On the everyone needs to step forward and vote point, I also think a vote should be cast by everyone. A no vote is more telling to me in some cases then a shady vote.
_________________
A cannon is a tube with deadly intentions!!

[Undercover Monk]

could we get a vote count and move the deadline with easter upon us. I predict the forum will be quiter than usual this weekend perhaps Tuesday night so we can have one more day for discussion
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Sentran]

The vote count will come at the new page (after just one more post).
I am fine with extending the deadline to Tuesday. The next vote count will reflect that change.
_________________
Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Durryn]

@Garou, you need to vote man.

@Jedo, the discussion between Cloud and myself concerning Stannis's location is why I was flipping. Lucresia was at least a vote and I won't vote for MNO as I believe he is Town.
_________________
If there's anything around here more important than my ego, I want it caught and shot now! - Zaphod Beeblebrox