SURVIVOR MAFIA- TOWN WINS reunion show

[Lifeinmomland]

[The Great Crep'er]

My fear is that a MNOWAX wagon may be too easy of a wagon, and, like my own, it will be a wagon that scum can easily attach their votes to. Too much of a wash.
However, MNOWAX, on his own principles, is a crazy poster. That leaves him low on the night kill list as he is a mafia's wet dream of a lynch target (to those not fully familiar or comfortable with his chosen method of play). If he were mafia, he could very easily use this excuse. And, given some of the trusting natures that abstained from a MNOWAX vote, could lead him far from the noose, and he could very easily become a clutch player in this scenario.

My other fear is that, given his own track record with endgames where he was a pivotal vote, it is difficult to see if he can perform well. (Trying my very best not to offend may be failing) It would be ideal to dispose of a player like MNOWAX when the group has a pretty good chance at a no risk lynch. (Unless of course there are 5 mafia in a 15 player game) Scum (ideal) or no scum.

[jadesmar]

If you believe that there were mafia on your bandwagon, then that would be MNOWAX or Deception.

[MNOWAX]

[Lifeinmomland]

MOD: Can we get a vote count?

Thank you.
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Who is John Gult?

[The Great Crep'er]

[MNOWAX]

[Amb]

If you, MNOWAX, weren't playing this game so erratically, you wouldn't warrant the pressure you are under.

But you are, and you are under pressure as a result.

Don't blame brainwashers if you are town and get lynched. You die, it's your own fault. Your play isn't any better that Jedo's, who could have gotten quite a few investigations out had he claimed.

If you are town, stop handing the mafia easy outs - because we have to lynch you on your current behaviour - otherwise we may as well dice roll vote for the rest of the game.

[Mackay]

To my own surprise, the person I'm finding I suspect the most upon a reread is Deception. I was mentally giving him a bit of leeway yesterday because I felt like his persistence on the TGC bandwagon gave a pro-town kind of vibe, but I'm not feeling it so much now. Having sat there trying to reread Creper's day 1 posts without my eyes glazing over, I can't help but think "what an easy target".

I mentioned during yesterday's discussion of lurker-lynching that a scum-tell I favour is when a player speaks up on another player's behalf/answers for another player. In fact, the player I pointed out doing it was our serial killer - though I dismissed the individual tell in favour of pursuing an informational lynch, which sucks in hindsight. I want to say I'd do it again in an instant, but I'm lately feeling a bit of contempt for players who stick to an arbitrarily-decided-upon principle regardless of things like "changing game conditions" and "logic", so I should probably turn that scrutiny on myself and go with what is working for me right now instead of what I think works better in general.
The reason I like this particular tell so much is that there are several different evil-mindsets which can facilitate the behaviour - at the more basic levels it might be trying to appear to be on the "right"/town side of an argument, or even simple protection of a teammate in the event that it is a scumbuddy. At higher levels it could be someone intending to link themselves to a player that they are not actually linked to in order to mislead the town, or someone trying to ingratiate themselves with a player who is vocal and/or favours a role of leading the town. Townsfolk tend to be more reticent about/less comfortable with speaking on another's behalf, because they have less information about that person's alignment and, therefore, about their intentions.

Deception has done this a couple of times now: to Jedo and to ralphmerridew (admittedly, this latter is about the name stuff - only tangentially game-related and therefore much less worrisome. I mostly include it to be thorough). I gave him an FOS at the end of yesterday for making a small but particularly defensive intervention on Jedo's behalf, and he was immediately meek and conciliatory - a behaviour which also surprised me after having watched him latch onto Creper like a bear trap.

In addition, he made a Really Big Deal of lamenting over Jedo's death, even before we were given his role. It reads as very artificial, especially given that other than the aforementioned one-sentence justification that he raised on Jedo's behalf (and immediately retracted when I questioned it), he made zero effort to actually stop the Jedowagon, preferring to spend a whole lot of posts on a dickwaving contest with jadesmar.

Vote: Deception.

[Captin Aniima]

Wow no one else made themselves suspicious right of the bat... *cough cough MNO cough cough cough*

but for now FOS:MNO
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Just sayin... The sky is blue.

[Amb]

Deception and MNOWAX are very similar players. Deception has a history of being an early lynch because of the way he does things. In this case, I think MNO is actually being scum - whereas Deception - well I think it's too early to tell.

[jadesmar]

I think they are both scum. Also with Captin Aniima.

[The Great Crep'er]

[Deception]

Jedo is arguably the best player on this site and he wasn't scummy at all yesterday - The quick L-1/L votes then of course made me upset.

Jadesmar: Why is Aniima mafia?

[The Great Crep'er]

[jadesmar]

[jadesmar]

[Deception]

[Mackay]

[Mackay]

[MNOWAX]

[Mackay]

Richard Hatch... is a mason? He certainly doesn't summon another player's name IMMEDIATELY to mind the way "Stephen Fishbach" does.

Why claim now? You only have two votes.

This is really weird.

Here is my thought process so far:
1) At first I was strongly inclined to believe the claim, because (a) why would you take the risk of claiming mason when a group already exists? and (b) unfortunately, MNO, your discretion is near-nonexistent in this case, as someone else blatantly reacted with suspicion to Garou and Amb's claim of mutually confirmed innocence. But then:
2) I remembered Amb's post that said he and Garou are allowed to talk during the day. If communication between team members is allowed during the day then the other player's reaction does not help your case to the extent that it would otherwise - this could be pre-planned, whereas at first I'd thought that because we started on day 1 there had been no communication there.
3) Maybe it's true but one of the masons is a traitor/mole. Why else, if the claim is true, would the members not be told that their partner was innocent while another existing mason group was given that information? From a theme standpoint, the person I'd think was most likely to be a mason with Hatch from season 1 (Sue Hawk) hated him in All-Stars - a season in which Hatch never got to make any real alliances at all. BUT: Sue was very loyal to her alliances. Of the two, I would be more inclined to think that Sue would be more likely to be someone who is secretly a villain all along (some kind of evil/anti-town mason), but Richard would be more likely to be a character who turns into a villain (e.g. a traitor).

I actually feel pretty comfortable lynching either MNOWAX or his partner, because it seems like either they're lying or there is something really dodgy about this particular alliance. I can't get past the thought that, if the claim is true, there has to be a reason that another group was told they were confirmed innocents and this group was NOT.

[Sentran]

Somebody take that shovel away from MNO before he moves us into Survivor: China! If I wasn't already happy with my current vote, I'd be voting MNO now as well. At best he's an erratic player, but to claim a second Mason group with an unnamed, unconfirmed partner? That sounds about as fishy as you can get. Are we sure there are no Jester roles in this game?

jadesmar, In addition to the post-lynch empty post by Captin A, I note that she has only put an FOS on MNO rather than a vote. Could easily be a distancing tactic.

Oh, and about my current vote... Look back through the games that Zag is in. Any of them. Notice a major difference here? He is never this quiet in a game! I realize he's even prolific when posting as scum, but this dearth of posts has me doubly concerned.
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Amb]

No matter how I work it, Richard Hatch is never a mason. Serial Killer maybe (and 2 Sk's would be insane and unlikely to an extreme) so I would say either: MNO = GodFather or MNO = Cult Leader.

If THERE is a Jester role in this game, I will NEVER ever play in another UM modded game again. That is a poor, bad mod, role.

[Jedo the Jedi]

Twice I was logged out when I went to hit submit. Anybody know why? (I don't want to distract the game, but I would have lost this post if I hadn't been cautious.)

I can't take it any longer. I woke up early to get in a post. So, in order...

I somewhat agree with Mom's statements that these distracting things shouldn't be brought back up and may be indicative of scum trying to divert attention. It's worth holding in mind and coming back to later. (I actually was going to drag these people more into the open, but something more pressing has presented itself.)

I don't know why so much flak is being given about the cop not claiming to save himself yesterday. You guys wanted to have four claims and be searching for another? Seriously? That's why I believe the way I do about Day 1. It would have been faster just to mass claim. If you are going to lynch (or not) based on the claim of Day 1, you are asking yourself to be fooled. As some pointed out in the GoT game, scum are not going to make a scummy claim when they lie. They will claim what they think will ingratiate themselves to the town. I will conclude: if you didn't want to lynch a "super-valuable" role, you should have lynched one of the masons.

Now for MNO and the mess he has made. First, he plays erratic all the time. I have seen it as town and it prove useful (in the end), but he is also a pretty effective scum that way. There has to be a way to pierce the cloud of crazy and discern which alignment he is more likely to be. I don't know what that is though. As for the mason claim, that is outlandish. Why the **** would he claim right now, especially when the town berated (not as much as I would like) Amb/Garou yesterday for coming out so early? This is suspicious. Plus, we now have three live claimants...out of twelve. That is poor. My gut reaction is just to lynch MNO and test the claim, but I know that won't meet with much approval and will probably draw out his partner. (I swear, if MNO's partner comes out to back him up, I will steal a vig power and kill him.)

Finally, I am not sure why Deception is so hard-core about the cop's death yesterday. It's a loss, but the town has quite a few top-notch players (Mackay, Amb, Zag, Sentran...to name a few). Also, I'm not the best on this site. It is strange that Deception would defend so vehemently like that, and yet not vehemently enough. I think Mackay may be onto something there.

A couple things that I feel are hanging in the background and should be brought to the fore:

1. I think ralphm is hanging out just above lurker status, and this is suspicious. I feel he knows the attention can turn anytime to a lurker lynch, so he wants to stay above that while not being very involved in the conversation. Until the MNO bit came up, I was wanting to vote him. I'll settle with FOS: ralphm

2. Why was Garou killed? All it did was confirm Amb as town. This seems a strange decision for either scum or SK to have made. It causes me to think Amb could have been a traitor/double-agent and his group killed Garou so we would believe Amb cleared. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I feel that's something pretty reasonable given our theme.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Deception]

[Amb]

I never watched the first season of Survivor. I never even heard of the show until Survivor Australia. But what I can say is that Richard Hatch ran his tribe in season 1, making him the ideal GodFather for the mafia. He was a villain through and through. THe only other possible GF that is likely to be in the game as mafia is Russel Hantz.

[jadesmar]

I'd say godfather on this site, is typically a member of the mafia that is immune to cop investigation.

Does anyone have another definition?

[ralphmerridew]

[Jedo the Jedi]

ralphm, I'm not trying to "stir up suspicion," but I am trying to make sure we are cautious. That's worse than a n00b mistake to kill Garou especially because we talked about why mafia would want to avoid confirming the masons immediately in this and the last game. I'm not saying we should do something about it right now, but I am saying we shouldn't just accept Amb's "confirmation."
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[ralphmerridew]

1) Regardless of whether it was a good move or a bad move for her, it was almost certainly SK itisally who kill Garou. And since her one-woman faction is out of the game, it doesn't benefit the town in any way to analyze what she was thinking.

2) Yes, there have been games with mason groups having scum members before. There have also been games with jesters before. There was a Shakespeare-themed mini-game with a male cop. Each night he could attempt to guess his name in addition to his investigation. If he correctly guessed "King Lear", he might also realize that he got correct results on male characters and incorrect results on female characters. When a mod throws an obnoxious role like one of these into a game, my response is usually to PNG that mod.

3) The bad guys have to start killing the masons eventually, and when the mafia does, they'll confirm the rest of the masons. Their decisions of whether to go after a mason or not should be closer to "Do I aim at an unclaimed person, hoping to get a cop or doc, or do I go for the certainty of hitting (roughly) cop-cleared innocent of a mason?"

Mafia theory of masons is probably the most basic of mafia theory, and I'm very suspicious of somebody who's trying to confuse that.

[jadesmar]

[Mackay]

[MNOWAX]

because of the name he gave me: Rudy Boesch.

A cult is possible in this type of game, but to have so many masons out there, how would you deal with a cult inducting a mason? Does the cult leader die?
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Mackay]

[Mackay]

[jadesmar]

[Undercover Monk]

Sorry about this taking so long guys. I was out celebrating the fourth by watching avengers for the third time. (No one wanted to see Abe Lincoln Vampire Hunter =( ) 7 to lynch

[Jedo the Jedi]

Mackay, I have seen one season of Survivor (Boston Rob's first appearance), and I don't even know anything beyond Boston Rob. Therefore, I have almost zero knowledge of this theme except that it is about shifting alliances and back-stabbing. I'm paranoid. If it's a bad theory, then tell me based on flavor, tell me. Before your explanation, it seemed even more probable to my mind because of the new mason claim. I see now it isn't a likely theory. Thank you.

I want to read back over MNO before I join his lynch. I've been preoccupied with other topics to pay adequate attention. I'm also going to investigate ralphm in more detail. I really have had a growing feeling of unease about him.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Sentran]

I share the unease in rm, but I would like to add Captin A to that list. A quick post count showed them both at only 13 each. FOS: Captin Aniima and ralphmerridew. Next lowest is Zag at 18.

In an unrelated note, HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO LIFEINMOMLAND!
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland