So, um, Obamacare.

[JDTAY]

Um, yeah.
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Prohibit nothing. Disclose everything.

[Chuck]

As the Prez pointed out, everyone who can afford insurance must buy it, otherwise everyone would wait until they were sick before buying it because the insurance companies can't refuse to insure you even you're already sick. So if the fine for not having insurance is less that the cost of insurance, everyone should cancel their insurance and pay the fine. That would put a cap on what the insurance companies can charge.

[MNOWAX]

the thing that slipped through most news outlets is a big thing and yet no one seems to quesiont it. The over turning of the clause "Medicaid eligibility is expanded to include all individuals and families with incomes up to 133% of the poverty level ". That jump would have covered so many more people that were really stuggling in this economy. There are a lot of peple working part time jobs barely making it that are just above that poverty line, that now won't get health insurance, and yet no one seems to care much about that.

My question is why not?
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[raekuul]

Because popular opinion is that the poverty line is much higher than it really needs to be.

[JDTAY]

I heard there was a huge Romney moneybomb today. Not sure why, he kinda invented Obamacare in the first place.
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Prohibit nothing. Disclose everything.

[raekuul]

Romney's the worst one to be going up against Obama, really. Then again, since when have the Republicans been tacticians?

[Neo]

[Mackay]

I don't know how you expect the rest of us to react, JDTAY, we all* have universal health care already. I don't think you would find many of the Euro/Canuck/Aus/Kiwi GLers who think they would be better off without it.

Your system has a long way to go, of course, but it's nice that they're setting up the framework to start behaving like an actual first world country.

It really is staggering to see the ill and the poor so dehumanised and vilified by the media that an entire political movement disregards their right to life completely (once they are born, at least). It happens here too, but with asylum seekers rather than the sick/poor/elderly. In both cases it makes me sick. It seems, from an outside perspective, that being born into poverty in the United States is seen as this terrible infringement upon the rights of those who were born privileged. It doesn't make any sense. A healthier working class with a little spare money in their pocket increases productivity and boosts the economy. An improved society is not a zero-sum game, it benefits the whole country. Stomping the lower socioeconomic strata further into poverty and illness just lowers everyone.

Who would have been the best republican candidate for president, and why? (This might be another discussion, but it's really fun to talk about. It was such a bad field!)

Do you feel that if Romney is elected, he should repeal Obamacare?


^{*not actually all, but I bet it's >90% of non-US GL posters.}

[Neo]

Breaking News: Conservatives planning to leave US, but can't find wealthy western democracy without universal healthcare.
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_{Ad Astra}

[Death Mage]

[Jedo the Jedi]

On a slightly tangential note, it seems Obama's new catchphrase is "it's the right thing to do." What's more, it's always him who is pushing the "right things."

This should be a fun election.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Mackay]

DM, maybe a "true" private sector with regard to health would be better, though I'd not mind seeing some kind of evidence - I suspect the definition of "better" varies by individual and by ideology. However, from the perspective of an outsider, the US' healthcare system to date has seemed both outrageously expensive and, in the case of insurance companies, horribly corrupt to the point of appearing outright evil.

In this study performed by the WHO in 2000 (unfortunately, that is the most recent one of these performed, but I don't know that the US health care system changed radically between 2000 and yesterday), the USA was shown to have the highest per-capita expenditure on healthcare out of 191 countries, but was 37th on overall performance and 72nd on overall level of health. That doesn't seem efficient OR "better". Whatever you guys had, it isn't your idea of a "true" private sector health system.

In this case I think that the actual, tangible result of saving human lives should override the ideology of "the free market is better". Sometimes it is. In this case, I think it is pretty clear that it is not. Maybe once the socioeconomic gap in the US decreases enough that a free-market health system doesn't cause widespread illness and death - but not today. I think that the US has taken a very pragmatic approach to addressing the shortcomings of its healthcare system, and I hope it does all of you the world of good. =)

[Mackay]

[Jedo the Jedi]

I can't find the article again. Anyway, he apparently sprinkles this phrase liberally in his speeches for any issue he supports. I don't expect them not to believe the things they are pushing are right, but I do expect that they won't be subliminally messaging their audiences like this.

As somebody mentioned earlier, the Republicans should have been a team and selected the best opponent to Obama. That's something that kills me about the office of the President: I want the job just so I can push whatever I want. This is not just a checked dictatorship. It's supposed to be something for the people and what they want/need, not whatever some dude dreaming of power wants. Obama is really no different.

Maybe I'm being extreme...
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Mackay]

[Jedo the Jedi]

I'll just back out quietly citing my own divided opinions on the matter. It's all very muddy for me. This was me wrestling, and I shouldn't have come in here like that. I liked Obama when he began, but I feel the U.S. government (and he in particular) has since done things it shouldn't have.

I'll just keep reading and ingesting in an attempt to sort my thoughts.

(And for the record, I do listen to the President speak. I was just referencing something I ran across a few days back. I really don't know why I couldn't find the article.)
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Mackay]

I apologise. It was not at all clear to me that you were wrestling, and I therefore interpreted a tone of uncertainty as a particularly nebulous and baseless* expression of disapproval.

I was certainly implying that you shouldn't have joined the conversation, but I wouldn't do so again given your clarification of your intent. Please don't feel like you can't say something because I'll go crook at you (none of my friends would ever say anything if people treated me that way). I was mad because I didn't think you were trying to say anything at all, not because I want to chase away people with whom I disagree.

^{*there is plenty of basis for disliking Obama, you just didn't cite anything that we could talk about, and it didn't seem like you were replying to anything specific from in-thread either.}

[Jedo the Jedi]

There's no need to apologize. I didn't necessarily say anything to signify my wrestling, but that's just a fact underwriting my posts. Obama and the current state of the U.S. government and the issues at hand are all very sticky for me. I do have some things with which I disagree very strongly, and sometimes topics close to those draw my ire causing me not to be very logical. I recognize I'm not near as educated as some, and I can't easily be rational about it at present.

Please, continue with the discussion. This has become too off-topic, even for this forum.

(Also, I viewed your post as a challenge of rhetoric for me to rise to the argument at hand and to back my statements appropriately. Nothing wrong with that. I just can't rise to it in this circumstance.)
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Lepton*]

I am currently in Sweden, and I had an idea: why doesn't a left-wing group sponsor free trips for Republican voters to Sweden so they can see the tangible benefits of a liberal immigration policy, universal health care, and the rest. It is really quite impressive.

[Death Mage]

Oh, Hell, Mackay. There hasn't been a really private health care system in the US forever. The system's already been ravaged by the government LONG before Obama came to power.
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[Zag]

Privatizing health care would lead to the sort of social darwinism that we used to have before the government started to socialize healthcare. Maybe DM and Ron Paul have the stomach for it, but I'm not interested in letting poor kids die of appendicitis and simple infections.
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[raekuul]

Part of the problem is that it's misregulated. Not necessarily over- or under-regulated, but the regulations are not on the right things.

[Mackay]

[Death Mage]

[Dread Pirate Westley]

[Deception]

[MNOWAX]

[Zag]

[Death Mage]

Wait, I can play the "make up random accusations about people who disagree with me" game too.

ZAG IS A NAZI WHO RAPES CHILDREN.

I win, pedonazi.
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[MNOWAX]

i have come back into this thread to say one thing.

pedonazi.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Fried Egg]

[raekuul]

[Thok]

[Fried Egg]

[raekuul]

Uhm, Obamacare does not (to my knowledge) prohibit private care or any of that billionaire binge thing. Socialized medicine might (I'll have to research that) and it might not.

The main reason Socialized Medicine won't work in the US is because we equate Socialism with Communism (which is the wrong comparison to make anyway, but that's the equating that gets made)

[Jedo*]

I did some brushing up on this, and I have some questions. Correct me where I'm wrong.

1. Somebody compared this to requiring people to have car insurance. I think that's a worthy comparison. However, I don't see paying a ticket when I don't have car insurance as a tax, so why is the same sort of penalty considered a tax here? That seems like the Court ruling is incorrect, or the former is also a tax and nobody has cared.

2. Why is the ACA considered "universal healthcare"? As far as I can tell, it just makes every person participate in the free market that exists, not provide healthcare for people through the act itself. I understand it is a step in that direction, but it reads more like the government is cracking down on the insurance companies and giving them a break by making more people pay them. (This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but perhaps we should call a duck "a duck.")

3. If Obama said this isn't a tax, what now? Does he own up?

[raekuul]

1) Politics, pure and simple. Besides, from what I understand of the court ruling it follows the same repeal laws as taxes.

2) People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. The opponents have done and are still doing everything in their power to make it sound undesirable before we can be certain of the side-effects.

3) It's not officially a tax, but it will get repealed like a tax. Nowhere in the law does it actually declare itself a tax, however, so if Obama's smart he'll say "they (meaning the Supreme Court) made it into a tax."

(Don't get me wrong, I hate the thing. I just believe more strongly in letting people discover their mistakes through experience than anything else - and it can still do some good anyway)

[LordKinbote]

[Death Mage]

They're the IRS. The little "loophole" of "they can't do anything if you don't pay it" will be closed very, very quickly.

And since this is going to be a tax on people who don't have health insurance, which is going to mostly effect people who can't afford health insurance, President Obama's big accomplishment in office is: a new tax on the poor.
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[Jedo the Jedi]