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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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 Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:37 am Post subject: 1 |
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As every thread seems to turn into one...
My general questions to start the discussion will be When did you first define your religious values? Do you set aside time for practice religion? Have you made an effort to learn and grow with your religion? How have religious traditions benefited your life? |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:49 am Post subject: 2 |
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As for me, I do not consider myself a religious person.
Just like in the song, my mother sang these words to me as I was leaving for college 7 years ago. I guess they are part of my-- I don't have a TV or read the paper, I am going to the country, intend to build a home, have planted a garden, and eat plenty of fruit. But I still haven't found Jesus on my own.
| Spanish Pipedream by John Prine wrote: |
Blow up your T.V. throw away your paper
Go to the country, build you a home
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches
Try an find Jesus on your own |
I am not an atheist. I just have never had any desire to go forth and practice religion with other people. So far I feel religion is more introspective. But then I see churches as a place were good people come together. |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:23 pm Post subject: 3 |
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I was raised in a conservative Christian tradition, but my mom was a moderate who encouraged me to be open-minded. When I joined the GL and encountered many other faith backgrounds, that's when I really started defining my religious values/beliefs. College furthered that.
I do practice my religion corporately and privately. As such, I feel this in itself is fostering learning and growth, but I've definitely also challenged my beliefs along the way by considering why I believe what I do and if there are other alternatives. At this point, I'm very liberal (according to many) because I'm not content to leave my God in some manageable box in which I dictate him. In conversations with professors and learned people, I'm asking how far is orthodox and planting myself in its furthest reaches. That may be for another thread or post. 
Anyway, I sometimes doubt religion. I consider that in some way religion is just a rationalization to help us make sense of things we can't explain, but then I contemplate things about my religion and the God I worship and that doesn't make sense either, being beyond my comprehension.
----
Your articulation for yourself is interesting. I'm not sure I've necessarily heard somebody like that, though considering what I know about the cultural views on religion, I'm sure your position is quite common. Just to find a label from which to gain a starting point for understanding, would you consider yourself "apathetic" or "anti-institutional"?
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MNOWAX
0.999... of a Troll
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: 4 |
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I am an Atheist. I have made a deep attempt in staying away from religious talk here on the GL due to the bad blood that tends to happen to people when they get fanatical talking about what they believe in.
That being said, I participate in Atheist Solidarity Day, I do a lot of talking about how Atheism doesn't equal barbarianism, or satanism. Also I spent 7 years as an Atheist in health care. That is just one step away from working in a church in some of the places I have worked at So many Christians would seriously try and cult me back into their religious beliefs while i was there.
But in the end if a resident needed someone to pray with I was also there. Because in that matter it didn't matter to me if I didn't believe it, it gave them comfort, and that's what I was there to do.
This will be the only post in this topic for me. For the reasons stated above, I do not like to debate religion in a forum where I highly respect its members.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX |
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Undercover Monk
Professor Chaos
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:30 pm Post subject: 5 |
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| MNOWAX wrote: |
So many Christians would seriously try and cult me back into their religious beliefs while i was there.
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perhaps this is why we so-called religous fanatics get upset. When we talk about our beliefs to others we are cultists crazed and irrational. when atheists or secularists do it they are noble defenders of freedom or scientific scholars. Why?
Not every atheist is a genius nor are all christians inbred right-wing nut-jobs. I just feel (less-so on the labyrinth but still there) that whenever I talk about my religous beliefs all you atheist smile at the silly simpleton who still believes fire is magic.
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:37 pm Post subject: 6 |
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| Undercover Monk wrote: |
| MNOWAX wrote: |
So many Christians would seriously try and cult me back into their religious beliefs while i was there.
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perhaps this is why we so-called religous fanatics get upset. When we talk about our beliefs to others we are cultists crazed and irrational. when atheists or secularists do it they are noble defenders of freedom or scientific scholars. Why?
Not every atheist is a genius nor are all christians inbred right-wing nut-jobs. I just feel (less-so on the labyrinth but still there) that whenever I talk about my religous beliefs all you atheist smile at the silly simpleton who still believes fire is magic. |
There is a difference between people having an intelligent discussion and people who want to convert you. The ones trying to convert are crazed and irrational. The ones who claim that the existence of God is "obvious" and "how can you think otherwise?" are crazed and irrational. The ones who wax about how ridiculous is that THEORY (inevitably said with distaste) of evolution -- they are the silly simpletons who still believe that fire is magic.
As long as you don't fall into any of those groups, I totally respect you and your opinion.
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| Death Mage wrote: |
| I couldn't agree with you more, Zag. |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:54 pm Post subject: 7 |
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Zag, you should believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. It's obvious he exists, and it's crazy that you would disbelieve his existence. Plus, the "theory" of evolution is clearly false. Believing in that is so five billion years ago.
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Scurra
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject: 8 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| There is a difference between people having an intelligent discussion and people who want to convert you. The ones trying to convert are crazed and irrational. |
Is it not unreasonable to observe that there are ones trying to "convert" on all sides? I certainly tend to expect to get flack from both sides if I observe that e.g. religion and science can co-exist perfectly happily, but I feel perhaps more frustration that people who like to present themselves as "rational" (usually by claiming that they don't "believe in superstition" without adequately defining their terms) sometimes come across as the most aggressive and rude.
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still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:35 pm Post subject: 9 |
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I am certainly guilty of trying to "convert" people to the process of thinking scientifically: applying a healthy skepticism to whatever you hear, thinking logically, etc.
I do not think that such thought is necessarily at odds with most religious belief, but it is somewhat at odds with most organized religions. That's because they (the leaders of these organized religions) typically want to be the ones who tell people what to believe, and they don't usually look too kindly at people questioning them. There are exceptions, of course (Unitarian Universalists, for example), but in my experience, the more fervently people believe, the less they apply their own neurons to the subject.
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| Death Mage wrote: |
| I couldn't agree with you more, Zag. |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:54 pm Post subject: 10 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| I do not think that such thought is necessarily at odds with most religious belief, but it is somewhat at odds with most organized religions. That's because they (the leaders of these organized religions) typically want to be the ones who tell people what to believe, and they don't usually look too kindly at people questioning them. There are exceptions, of course (Unitarian Universalists, for example), but in my experience, the more fervently people believe, the less they apply their own neurons to the subject. |
I would like to know just exactly how typical this is. How many of this type of leader have you met?
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:42 pm Post subject: 11 |
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| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| I would like to know just exactly how typical this is. How many of this type of leader have you met? |
OK. I have to admit that I haven't personally met many leaders of religions. I have, however, met a lot of the sheep, and from them I infer (perhaps unfairly) the character of the shepherd.
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| Death Mage wrote: |
| I couldn't agree with you more, Zag. |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:21 am Post subject: 12 |
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One of the key aspects of the original questions was that I didn't ask which religion you participated in.
Scurra's post is the exact reason this thread really came about. I realized that I was trying to inflict my views of coexisting with other religions.
My problems with Christianity is that I don't believe that Jesus is my personal savior. It seems that a large part of the religion is believing in Jesus...
And several years ago one of the more radical Christian groups was doing something along the sidewalk. I got asked by a small child if I believed in Jesus, I politely said no. To which she said "Then you are going to burn in hell." I never stopped walking. But how could someone so young have such strong beliefs?? |
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The Ragin' South Asian
Head Poncho
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:39 am Post subject: 13 |
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| I think I believed everything more strongly as a child, whether religious or otherwise. |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:20 am Post subject: 14 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| I would like to know just exactly how typical this is. How many of this type of leader have you met? |
OK. I have to admit that I haven't personally met many leaders of religions. I have, however, met a lot of the sheep, and from them I infer (perhaps unfairly) the character of the shepherd. |
And that's the thing. There is a strange dogma among the sheep, and they will hold on for all they are worth. That's the general demeanor of the masses in my opinion. Marx and Hegel(?) would probably have plenty to say about that. These are the people who have their cozy little world with their cozy little beliefs which don't make them uncomfortable, and any attempt to dismantle even a part of that makes them rabid. (Perhaps an analogy is disturbing a zoo animal's compound. He's got a nice territory set up, and he doesn't want you changing it.) I think you would find that many shepherds tend to be more reserved and less combative. Of course, it kind of depends on the tradition.
MattV, have you not seen the small child who is part of Westboro Baptist? (It's at 5:55.) She doesn't really know what she's singing. She only knows what the adults around her have told her and that they applaud/reward her for repeating it.
Zag, the above is an example of an extremist group who doesn't accurately represent the beliefs of the Church at large. I think every religion has those people who misrepresent. I wonder if you know any atheists who give other atheists a bad reputation. As the quote credited to Gandhi goes, "I love your Christ, but I don't like your Christians." Who looks at the picture of Jesus in the Gospels and thinks, "I don't really like that guy"?
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MNOWAX
0.999... of a Troll
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:34 am Post subject: 15 |
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| Undercover Monk wrote: |
| MNOWAX wrote: |
So many Christians would seriously try and cult me back into their religious beliefs while i was there.
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perhaps this is why we so-called religous fanatics get upset. When we talk about our beliefs to others we are cultists crazed and irrational. when atheists or secularists do it they are noble defenders of freedom or scientific scholars. Why?
Not every atheist is a genius nor are all christians inbred right-wing nut-jobs. I just feel (less-so on the labyrinth but still there) that whenever I talk about my religous beliefs all you atheist smile at the silly simpleton who still believes fire is magic. |
sigh, this is why I don't post in these threads.
Yes the ones were definitely trying to change me over into their religion, simple as that. The people I was referring to in terms of the "culting" had a Gospel hour for the residents every week. When they found out that I was an Atheist, they started coming in an hour earlier or stay later to try and talk to me about Christianity and how lost I was without Christ in my heart and many other things.
This happened for long enough that I actually had to approach management about them coming in early to do this. It wasn't like i could get away from them; I had to be there. With only 2 aides and a team leader, and since I was male the majority of the showers baths that were being done needed to have the female aide working with them, guess who had to deal with these people every week?
So yeah, I felt like I was being "culted" because i was in a profession that has heavy reliance in the Christian faith. By the way, since the company I was working for was also Christian heavy, they did very little to help me with any of my issues with them.
Oh I remember the time I went out with this woman a couple of years ago, and she told me I must rape babies because I was an Atheist and she needed to get to a church immediately. Left me literally in the middle of our meal.
So yeah I have been persecuted for my beliefs. I have been insulted and have had a multitude of attempts to be indoctrinated with Christian faith. The Christians that I have met assume I'm Christian because I'm a nice and moral guy, and change their tune when they hear that I'm not. Just because I'm not apart of a major religion, doesn't mean I don't get persecuted for my beliefs.
I do want to be clear with this: I DO NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE CHRISTIAN (OR ANY) FAITH. This is the reason why I don't participate in these types of debate. You have your own opinion, I have mine. What I have problems with is the pushing of other faiths on me. Each person must do what they need to do to be a productive member of society, and if that involves religion, then go for it.
I'm NOT saying anything more about this, despite what I said in the previous post. This is truly my LAST post in any religion thread.
I will leave this VIDEO as to generate more lighthearted thoughts.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:05 am Post subject: 16 |
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Sorry Jedo, I would rather not watch the video you posted. I don't agree with Westboro Baptists and would rather pretend they don't exist.
MNOWAX-- (sorry asking questions encourages you to post a response) You have mentioned some of the troubles you have faced for your beliefs. Yet you continue to believe them knowing that it would probably be easier to either lie or pretend to be Christian. I can fully understand just keeping your beliefs to yourself if you wish to not be confronted about them.
But what are some of the positive reasons why you have held firm to what you believe?
General question-- How similar are religions and a code of ethics? |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:57 am Post subject: 17 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| But what are some of the positive reasons why you have held firm to what you believe? |
Not to answer for MNOWAX, but I would think the reason is that it's the truth. What other reason could there be to believe something?
This ties in (maybe) to some things said in the post-modernism topic. For me, and I believe for all rational people, positive reasons to hold firm to a belief is a foreign concept. Believing something means believing it's the truth, and the truth is the truth regardless of whether believing it makes you happy, sad, whatever. |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:12 pm Post subject: 18 |
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I don't blame you. The sentences after should make the point and answer your question about small children.
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3iff
very unbifflike
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:53 pm Post subject: 19 |
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Like MNO, I feel that I'm stepping into a minefield...so, treading carefully...
I'm an athiest but I'm totally uninterested in religion. It never impacts my everyday life and there's no-one trying to 'convert' me to their way of thinking. I would strongly resist any such attempts anyway. Equally, I'm not interested in promoting atheism.
I'm really not bothered if other people are religious. As long as they don't try to involve me in their religious activities then I'm happy.
| Zag wrote: |
There is a difference between people having an intelligent discussion and people who want to convert you. The ones trying to convert are crazed and irrational. The ones who claim that the existence of God is "obvious" and "how can you think otherwise?" are crazed and irrational. The ones who wax about how ridiculous is that THEORY (inevitably said with distaste) of evolution -- they are the silly simpletons who still believe that fire is magic.
As long as you don't fall into any of those groups, I totally respect you and your opinion. |
Perfectly said.
| MatthewV wrote: |
| But what are some of the positive reasons why you have held firm to what you believe? |
I believe what I believe because it makes the most sense to me with the evidence I have to hand. I'm very comfortable with the idea that the universe came into being through natural events, ditto for our galaxy, solar system, planet and life. Even though I don't know HOW these things occurred I do not require the intervention of a god to make any aspect of this happen. I might be wrong, but someone waving a passage from a book claiming a different view is not going to convince me.
One thing I've noticed is that there seems to be much more pressure on Americans to be religious. This pressure doesn't seem to exist in the UK. |
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Undercover Monk
Professor Chaos
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:19 pm Post subject: 20 |
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BUT and this is a big but. One of the most revered tenants of christianity is to spread the Gospel. IF we are right then unfortunately all of you very nice reasonable atheists are going to Hell. It makes me hope that we christians are wrong sometimes. So thats why you get people who try to convince you to become a christian. Its like your in sinking sand and dont know it. we are throwing you ropes and vines and you just get annoyed at us and tell us to mind your own business. To many of us its a moral duty. The problem is many Christians do not know how to do disciple in a way that is not incrediably offensive. I can't stand strangers lecturing me about anything. You guys though its ok cause even though we dont know each other Ive always been treated with respect so I don't mind Zag talking to me about atheism and how I am a simpleton 
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2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:20 pm Post subject: 21 |
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| 3iff wrote: |
| I'm very comfortable with the idea that the universe came into being through natural events, ... |
I'm not. In fact, I think it's clear that the idea is ludicrous, but let me clarify before the rational people freak out. First, that I can't call it "natural" doesn't imply supernatural. Second, I accept that there may be (is) a grand "theory of everything" ... a set of laws that will explain all we see, and explain how it could have sprung into existence from some initial conditions, which, depending on the laws, might be from absolute nothingness. But those laws ... how did they come into effect? I'm not suggesting (as I know some would) that God is the answer. But I can't call it "natural". Sure, you can perhaps posit some higher theory, with higher laws, explaining how universes like ours with lower laws come into being, but then there's the same problem. This is a very real and great mystery, and while I don't condone the implication of a God, I'm also astounded by some who have such religious faith in science that they can't see that this is a real and obvious question of interest which is fundamentally beyond science, or who recognizing it as beyond science, declare it to therefore be of no interest.
| 3iff wrote: |
| ... ditto for our galaxy, solar system, planet and life. |
These I have no problem with seeing as arising naturally from a set of laws of physics.
| 3iff wrote: |
| Even though I don't know HOW these things occurred I do not require the intervention of a god to make any aspect of this happen. |
But do you know what is required to make a particular set of initial laws of physics come into being and take hold? I think not, and so how can one say what is not required when one can't say what is required?
| 3iff wrote: |
| One thing I've noticed is that there seems to be much more pressure on Americans to be religious. This pressure doesn't seem to exist in the UK. |
It definitely varies very much by geographic region in the US. I've never felt such pressure in places I've lived, but I know there are places where confessing even the slightest doubt that Jesus is your savior will get you stranger looks than if you sprouted two heads. |
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dethwing
DeTheeThaw
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:10 pm Post subject: 23 |
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| Undercover Monk wrote: |
| IF we are right then unfortunately all of you very nice reasonable atheists are going to Hell. |
I consider myself a Christian, and I disagree with this.
The Greek word for "gospel" literally means "good message/news." Yes, we are encouraged to spread this "gospel," but considering it's meaning, who wouldn't want to tell about something good they have heard? (It isn't really much of a command then so much as an encouragement not to keep silent.) The problem is, I feel like the "gospel" that is often spread isn't very good news. "You are going to hell unless you follow this list of rules and feel contrite about your sinfulness" would be a huge turn-off for me, and I think such a notion misses the point entirely. Anyway, that is the sort of message being spread, therefore the "very nice reasonable atheists" and others get tired of hearing about Christianity because this is the "good" news they hear. I don't blame them.
(That doesn't consider the people averse to Christianity on an intellectual level, but I think that eventually could be gotten around too. I don't think science and religion should be so opposed.)
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:51 pm Post subject: 24 |
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| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| Undercover Monk wrote: |
| IF we are right then unfortunately all of you very nice reasonable atheists are going to Hell. |
I consider myself a Christian, and I disagree with this.
The Greek word for "gospel" literally means "good message/news." Yes, we are encouraged to spread this "gospel," but considering it's meaning, who wouldn't want to tell about something good they have heard? (It isn't really much of a command then so much as an encouragement not to keep silent.) The problem is, I feel like the "gospel" that is often spread isn't very good news. "You are going to hell unless you follow this list of rules and feel contrite about your sinfulness" would be a huge turn-off for me, and I think such a notion misses the point entirely. Anyway, that is the sort of message being spread, therefore the "very nice reasonable atheists" and others get tired of hearing about Christianity because this is the "good" news they hear. I don't blame them.
(That doesn't consider the people averse to Christianity on an intellectual level, but I think that eventually could be gotten around too. I don't think science and religion should be so opposed.) |
I agree with Jedo completely, and this has always been where I see the greatest irrationality among some religious people. Specifically:
If my very definite intuition about right and wrong, good and evil, is completely misguided and incorrect, then I have no way to know whether the Bible, the Koran, or any other religious book or teaching might possibly be the word of God (God being good). Given that, then that I might be eternally damned to Hell for choosing the wrong one, or choosing none at all, would strike me as pure evil - not possibly the way of a God that is good. But then in this case I don't know good from evil anyway, but given that, I can do no better than choosing at random when it comes to endeavoring to save my soul by following this "good" God.
If on the other hand my intuition about right and wrong, good and evil, is the least bit correct, then, because it strikes me as the clearest and greatest evil possible, I must reject that any good God would eternally damn someone because they believed what they truly believed was the truth, or because they did not accept the Gospel when they heard it in passing from someone who distorted it to make God seem evil. |
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Undercover Monk
Professor Chaos
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:52 pm Post subject: 25 |
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what follows is my interpretation of christianity.
That is probably the biggest complaint I hear from people regarding hell/heaven and the goodness of God. God is not sending people to Hell. In fact he went out of his way to get people to heaven. There is no set of rules either that must be folloewed to the letter to get into heaven. Instead you just have to admit your a sinner and ask forgiveness for those sins and believe in God. First two are easy for me but I will admit to some doubts about the existence of heaven and hell. Its hard to fathom the concept of eternity. But I certinley am not going to blame God for my screw-ups. Thats like blaming the judge for being in jail cause you got caught. Oh that mean judge is such a horrible man cause now I'm in jail. We have been granted the right of free choice and every choice has consequences. We must live with those consequences. I will stay away from actually quoting the bible cause I dont want to stand on a pulpit and preach (Im the last person who should be doing that).
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The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:08 pm Post subject: 26 |
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Maybe extro or Scurra wants to touch that, but I don't know that I can right now.
Kind of back to Matt's starter for this discussion...
How would you define "religion"? Would you draw a distinction between that and "spirituality"? Regardless of your beliefs, do you feel a corporate or institutional aspect of your belief system is helpful or harmful to your experience of your deity?
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: 27 |
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| Undercover Monk wrote: |
| That is probably the biggest complaint I hear from people regarding hell/heaven and the goodness of God. God is not sending people to Hell. In fact he went out of his way to get people to heaven. There is no set of rules either that must be folloewed to the letter to get into heaven. Instead you just have to admit your a sinner and ask forgiveness for those sins and believe in God. First two are easy for me but I will admit to some doubts about the existence of heaven and hell. Its hard to fathom the concept of eternity. But I certinley am not going to blame God for my screw-ups. Thats like blaming the judge for being in jail cause you got caught. |
The problem is that the way a great many fundamentalist Christians preach it, if you've been told that Jesus died to save you from your sins, and that all you must do is believe and accept him as your savior, and you do not believe and accept, then you will not be saved. Given that there are numerous religions which say "believe this or else", and the vast majority of people will stick with the one they were raised in, failure to convert on hearing "believe this or else", for the correct value of "this", hardly seems like a "screw-up" to suffer eternally for. No good God would allow that, unless I have no idea what "good" means, in which case I have no way to know which religion might be the one the good God endorses. |
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Undercover Monk
Professor Chaos
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: 28 |
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see to me its not unbelief in God that condemns. It just without belief you can not be saved. I don't want to get too deep because in the same way I am can not argue the validity of the big bang theory I dont really have the knowledge required to go real deep. I am not a theoligion merely a practicing christian. But if you go to hell its cause you lied, cheated, stole, injured and so on. The tricky part comes down to belief in God being one of the commandments. Its a old testament law which many of those no longer apply. You dont see us sacrificing cattle anymore (unless you count McDonalds). What about people who haven't heard the Gospel on what merits will they be judged? I don't know all I know is the world is a beautiful place and people can be real @$$holes. I give God credit for nature and myself and the rest of the world for the vast majority of the problems.
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The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:43 pm Post subject: 29 |
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First of all, Life to me is about Happiness. I should be Happy in my life. To achieve Happiness, I must be nice to people. Otherwise they treat me poorly.
Religion to me has never been about converting people or belief in a certain Holy text. Most of the religions that are widespread in America were founded when a majority of the population was illiterate. So reading something really shouldn't be part of it.
So what do I feel religion is about? Socializing.
After graduating I worked for a company that was entirely Christian. We prayed together before meetings. Everyone was pleasant and friendly. Everyone was told it was optional and wouldn't influence their job. Now when I look back, I know why I was never entirely comfortable-- I was never politely invited to go to Church with them.
So yes, I do believe you should invite people irregardless of their beliefs to join you in Church. If you are told no... then leave them alone. Asking everyone is like spamming and should be avoided. |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: 30 |
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I posted a response to Monk in the "Ask About Christianity" thread because I felt it was more appropriate there. Perhaps that branch of the discussion can continue there.
| MatthewV wrote: |
| First of all, Life to me is about Happiness. I should be Happy in my life. To achieve Happiness, I must be nice to people. Otherwise they treat me poorly. |
I would agree in very many ways.
Socializing is an interesting perspective. I can see organized religion having that as its central purpose. (And Christianity certainly has extra impetus for socialization.)
Regarding your statement, "I was never politely invited to go to Church with them," do you emphasize "politely" or that you were never invited? I figure it's the former and that you were somehow coerced or ostracized in their attempts to bring you along, but it would be very surprising to me if your discomfort was because they weren't reaching out to you and that would cause some more questions.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:04 am Post subject: 31 |
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| Undercover Monk wrote: |
| see to me its not unbelief in God that condemns. It just without belief you can not be saved. |
What is the difference, in the context of Christianity, between being condemned and not being saved? I thought they both meant going to Hell. |
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MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:25 am Post subject: 32 |
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| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| Regarding your statement, "I was never politely invited to go to Church with them," do you emphasize "politely" or that you were never invited? I figure it's the former and that you were somehow coerced or ostracized in their attempts to bring you along, but it would be very surprising to me if your discomfort was because they weren't reaching out to you and that would cause some more questions. |
They were polite people. If they had asked it would have been in a polite manner.
See, I was never given any trouble for having undefined beliefs. The atmosphere (a mild tension at times) was created because I couldn't volunteer my position without a long-awkward-and-entirely-too-personal speech. I still don't know why people have trouble asking questions when they feel the answer might be No.
My realization of this, of course, happened about 3 years later.
I should mention that I also have the trouble with asking about things when I think I will get rejected. Stupid ego. |
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Scurra
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:54 am Post subject: 33 |
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| MatthewV wrote: |
| And several years ago one of the more radical Christian groups was doing something along the sidewalk. I got asked by a small child if I believed in Jesus, I politely said no. To which she said "Then you are going to burn in hell." I never stopped walking. But how could someone so young have such strong beliefs?? |
Just in passing, I would note that the term "radical" is probably not the appropriate one here - Christian radicals would tend to be ones opposed to the concept of "burning in hell" (indeed probably to the whole notion of "heaven" and "hell" altogether; see UM's comment.) Radical is usually a term used for people who are against the recognised orthodoxy (in religion they might be called heretical although that's another misunderstood term) - with the somewhat amusing outcome that their position often eventually becomes the orthodoxy.
The anecdote you recount sounds like a group who are embedded wholly in the orthodoxy, albeit one that is somewhat out-of-date..
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still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon
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Scurra
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:21 am Post subject: 34 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| What is the difference, in the context of Christianity, between being condemned and not being saved? I thought they both meant going to Hell. |
Not at all. Catholicism has the concept of "limbo" (as do some other religions, but to a lesser extent.) And there is a difference between your soul ceasing to exist after death and your soul proceeding to eternal damnation or salvation (or some other intermediate place.) Of course, if you don't believe in a soul, then none of these positions matter - you cannot be condemned if you don't think there is anything to believe in the first place!
| Quote: |
| Given that there are numerous religions which say "believe this or else", |
You see, this is the sort of sweeping statement that frustrates me no end, because it doesn't matter how often I point out that very few religions actually do say this - it is a view promulgated frequently by those who wish to encourage tribalism, and that's got very little to do with religious faith per se. It's pretty much the same model that is used by political parties as well, because tribalism is about power structures and when you investigate more closely you discover that the struggle for power is the root cause of almost everything, but those involved look for other disguises (some being more effective than others.)
There have been extremists in every religion who have advocated that position. They also tend to get the most coverage (this is true throughout history) because extreme positions are the easiest to explain - subtle nuances are much tougher to debate: it's just simpler to say "God will send you to Hell if you [do X]!"
_________________
still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:48 pm Post subject: 35 |
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| Scurra wrote: |
| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| What is the difference, in the context of Christianity, between being condemned and not being saved? I thought they both meant going to Hell. |
Not at all. Catholicism has the concept of "limbo" (as do some other religions, but to a lesser extent.) And there is a difference between your soul ceasing to exist after death and your soul proceeding to eternal damnation or salvation (or some other intermediate place.) Of course, if you don't believe in a soul, then none of these positions matter - you cannot be condemned if you don't think there is anything to believe in the first place! |
Being raised Catholic, I'm somewhat familiar with Heaven, Hell, Purgatory and Limbo, but I was addressing what so many Christians believe (perhaps largely non-Catholics ... and there are many who claim Catholics aren't Christians, and aren't saved, and are going to Hell). They believe, and preach, that all will go to either Heaven or Hell for eternity after judgement.
| Scurra wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Given that there are numerous religions which say "believe this or else", |
You see, this is the sort of sweeping statement that frustrates me no end, because it doesn't matter how often I point out that very few religions actually do say this - it is a view promulgated frequently by those who wish to encourage tribalism, and that's got very little to do with religious faith per se. |
I'm not clear on what you're saying, all I know is that fundamentalist Christians preaching that those who don't accept Jesus in this life will suffer in Hell in the next life are everywhere, and I'm only pointing out how absurd that belief is, how inconsistent it is with the notion of God being good, in case anyone's reading who might even remotely be considering such a thing true. I don't believe the people preaching that are encouraging tribalism. They believe it to be the truth from God.
| Scurra wrote: |
| There have been extremists in every religion who have advocated that position. |
That you must be "born again" to be saved from Hell is a common belief (and they have a particular interpretation of "born again" which excludes most Catholics). |
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Scurra
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:53 pm Post subject: 36 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| I don't believe the people preaching that are encouraging tribalism. They believe it to be the truth from God. |
But that's exactly what tribalism is - the belief that you are exclusively correct and that anyone else must be wrong, because otherwise you look stupid - and that's been the driving force behind most human actions: admitting that you got something wrong is by far the most difficult thing for someone to have to do; people would rather dig their hole deeper than try to climb out of it.(Discuss.  )
I spent many years working with an ecumenical organisation in the UK, and the conclusion I came to was that the only real differences that separated most Christians were nothing to do with theology, they were almost all to do with tradition. And tradition is the worst thing in the world to try and tackle, since it is intimately bound up with tribalism. Preaching that everyone will either go to Heaven or Hell is just tradition, not well-considered theology.
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still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:35 pm Post subject: 37 |
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| Scurra wrote: |
| I spent many years working with an ecumenical organisation in the UK, and the conclusion I came to was that the only real differences that separated most Christians were nothing to do with theology, they were almost all to do with tradition. And tradition is the worst thing in the world to try and tackle, since it is intimately bound up with tribalism. Preaching that everyone will either go to Heaven or Hell is just tradition, not well-considered theology. |
Very good point. In some sense, they've held onto these traditions for so long, they're afraid of what they will be left with if that's taken away; and if that should happen, they will be in a very uncomfortable place.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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Thok
Oh, foe, the cursed teeth!
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:37 pm Post subject: 38 |
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As I've matured, I've realized that evangelism bothers me more than the actual contents of belief. (This extends, by the way, to evangelic atheists, who do exist.)
Of course, American society has chosen to value evangelism as an indicator of some sort of positive value. I suspect a large portion of America would list their religion as "I don't care" (or more scientifically, something like apathetic agnostic) if that was considered an acceptable choice by society. But even atheism is more permissible than that. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:43 am Post subject: 39 |
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| Scurra wrote: |
| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| I don't believe the people preaching that are encouraging tribalism. They believe it to be the truth from God. |
But that's exactly what tribalism is - the belief that you are exclusively correct and that anyone else must be wrong, because otherwise you look stupid - and that's been the driving force behind most human actions: admitting that you got something wrong is by far the most difficult thing for someone to have to do; people would rather dig their hole deeper than try to climb out of it.(Discuss. ) |
It's one thing to have a notion of what "tribalism" means, and decide you want to encourage it, and then engage in nefarious means of doing so ... and another thing to have no idea what "tribalism" means, to believe that something is the word of God, to live according to it (which may entail preaching it), and to have others say "look, it results in tribalism". |
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3iff
very unbifflike
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:55 am Post subject: 40 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
3iff wrote:
I'm very comfortable with the idea that the universe came into being through natural events, ...
I'm not. In fact, I think it's clear that the idea is ludicrous, but let me clarify before the rational people freak out. First, that I can't call it "natural" doesn't imply supernatural. Second, I accept that there may be (is) a grand "theory of everything" ... a set of laws that will explain all we see, and explain how it could have sprung into existence from some initial conditions, which, depending on the laws, might be from absolute nothingness. But those laws ... how did they come into effect? I'm not suggesting (as I know some would) that God is the answer. But I can't call it "natural". Sure, you can perhaps posit some higher theory, with higher laws, explaining how universes like ours with lower laws come into being, but then there's the same problem. This is a very real and great mystery, and while I don't condone the implication of a God, I'm also astounded by some who have such religious faith in science that they can't see that this is a real and obvious question of interest which is fundamentally beyond science, or who recognizing it as beyond science, declare it to therefore be of no interest. |
I see what you mean. OK, at some point in time our universe came into existence (big bang style?) some 13+ billion years ago by means that I do not know. While many people may think that god caused this to happen, I am of the view that this event happened without such assistance...but nobody knows if this is in fact the case.
| Quote: |
| religious faith in science |
That's not me. It's very possible that we will never know how our universe came into being. We can speculate, we can call in a creator to make it happen, there are many possibilities.
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| fundamentally beyond science |
It might be beyond our existing level of science but imagine how incredible our level of science would look to someone in 1912. Now try to think what new levels of science would be reached in 2112.
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| But do you know what is required to make a particular set of initial laws of physics come into being and take hold? I think not, and so how can one say what is not required when one can't say what is required? |
I do not see why laws of physics need to be made...they just are... (is this a trap?). It might be that a god IS required...I just don't think one is necessary. Look at quantum mechanics...that's just bizarre.
We also run into laws, meta laws, meta meta laws....at what point do we reach the top laws?
| Quote: |
| declare it to therefore be of no interest. |
I didn't say that. I am very interested in finding out...I just think that I will never discover the answer. |
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