On Marijuana and Critical Thinking- from Serious Discussions

[MatthewV]

[MatthewV]

So on the good side, I have found that using marijuana makes headaches go away. And severe depression. I spend more time drawing in my sketchbook and making artwork.

As an example to show the world, I made both the base vase and painting completely high. My attempts at doing similar things without marijuana have been... disappointing.

[Zag]

There are a lot of things about which I do NOT agree with the Libertarians, but I think that they have drug laws correct. The fact that we have filled our prisons with people guilty only of possession of drugs for personal use is really freaking stupid. Let's just legalize them all!!

[Jedo the Jedi]

I'm in favor of the legalization of a number of drugs mostly because the government can then get tax revenue and bring it above-board. You'll still have the same problems you have with alcohol, but then you can have regulations and take away some stigma.

As for the use of drugs themselves, I don't think it's a good idea. If you want to call alcohol a drug, then I can say the use of drugs should be in moderation. However, I understand some drugs to be more addictive than others, so the ones upon which people are more likely to become dependent should probably be avoided. Ultimately though, it may just boil down to the individual: what is addictive to you may not be addictive to me. That's where it becomes a much less universal thing.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[MatthewV]

Do you know of anyone addicted to marijuana? I know there are people who use it everyday but have not known a single person who became chemically dependent on it. Socially dependent, maybe.

I have never felt like I ~had~ to or even really wanted to smoke it when life didn't allow for it. I think most users of marijuana fall into this category.

[Jedo the Jedi]

There are different kinds of dependence. I agree, there probably is not much chemical dependence on marijuana. (I confess to not knowing much about drugs specifically.) However, some people are socially dependent, and some people are in some ways emotionally dependent on drugs. I don't promote drinking alcohol for escapism after work to "wind down" or something. That begins patterns of use which can easily grow into something bigger and less controllable.

I won't stop you though. That's just my view. The government can take care of you if you develop an uncontrollable addiction to something.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[MatthewV]

Are you okay with someone drinking after work? What about everyday?

What are the reasons you have never tried marijuana? Have you tried caffeine and alcohol?

[Jedo the Jedi]

It depends why they drink after work. Again, I don't think drinking to "wind down" is a good thing. I drink every now and then because I like the taste of alcohol. If I think I want to drink because I've had a rough day, I don't because that can lead into patterns I don't want to set.

Because thus far marijuana is illegal. I often abstain from caffeine because I know I tend toward being addicted to it. I really don't want the "caffeine headaches" that signal dependency on it.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Thok]

I don't have an interest in marijuana, alcohol or other drugs (I've only tried alcohol and it has no appeal to me). I do take some caffeine, but not a lot (maybe a coke and a snapple a day).

If I was king for a day, I'd legalize marijuana, pardon everybody who only had a conviction for marijuana possession (and didn't plea from some higher offense) and tax marijuana at a level comparable to cigarettes.

Of course, if I was king for a day, I'd tax soft drinks at a level comparable to cigarettes (despite drinking at least one a day.) (I feel like that's harsher than the marijuana tax, since legalization is likely to reduce the cost of marijuana by bringing it onto the free market and removing the cost of smuggling it.)

[MatthewV]

I feel that marijuana should be taxed at the level similar to caffeine.

I have never smoked marijuana because I had a bad day and needed to relax. I don't know of people who do this.

Actually, I smoke marijuana when I am having a good day that doesn't require a lot of social activity. I don't enjoy being drunk around sober people and I don't enjoy being stone around sober people.

But when I do smoke and go get coffee-- I am smiling and happy. I am also easily distracted.

[MatthewV]

Oh, and I exercise much more after smoking-- another good reason.

Finally a big misconception I had about smoking pot was it being like a big on-off switch. That isn't the case at all-- it is possible to get a little stoned or all the way to really stoned. It can be controlled very easily. Just like how I can enjoy one-two beers or 5-7 beers in a night.

[MatthewV]

[Zag]

DUI.


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[MatthewV]

Most DUI's go to people using alcohol and not marijuana. And I do not believe there is a great overlap of "people getting in accidents or doing dangerous things on the road" and "people who smoke marijuana".

[Jedo the Jedi]

[MatthewV]

I would like to compare marijuana to chocolate or coffee. The government taxes neither of these.

[extropalopakettle]

I think it's messing with your judgement and critical thinking.

[MatthewV]

The influences of marijuana are across the body and mind. In some ways I cannot agree that it will influence critical thinking. But I also have no way of telling when someone is "critically thinking".

Is there are situation where we could test this? First as marijuana user and second after I haven't used it for about 3 days? If the test takes less than one hour each time I will do it as honestly and faithfully as I can.
With just one test subject, it really won't be scientific. But it will be safer then trying it on your children!

And I want to do this. Right now our disagreement goes like this:
me: pot is great! weeeee
somepeople: <mumble mumble>
you: ummm you really shouldn't be doing that
me: why not?
you: it hurts your critical thinking
me: maybe. But I can see all these other benefits, who cares about critical thinking! Oh wait, I care.
<the next pointless but mildly amusing summary will come on page 2!>
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He tried to understand a phenomenon by describing and depicting it in utmost detail and did not emphasize experiments or theoretical explanation.

[extropalopakettle]

I'm not saying you shouldn't be doing it, but I'm seeing a difference in you, I think - an inability or a dogged insistence not to communicate directly and intelligibly about anything here. Maybe I never noticed it before, but I can't imagine how I'd miss it. Right now, it's like the elephant in the room.

[MatthewV]

Right. The difference is that I am trying really hard to follow the rules I created. At first I wasn't-- I just posted whatever crap I thought I could like what came out of my mouth was golden. Rules slow you down.

The only real metric for "how good" or "how respected" someone the quality of their work. In the case of the Grey Labyrinth, an edited and thoughtful post should be read and the ones that aren't should be deleted. That way the next person doesn't have to read garbage.

When I saw the meta-puzzle that Suspense was creating, I remember why I joined the Grey Labyrinth. When I looked through old threads, I found out why so many people had left. Today, I am working at restoring that.
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He tried to understand a phenomenon by describing and depicting it in utmost detail and did not emphasize experiments or theoretical explanation.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I'm not going to follow you all over the place, Matt, like you and extro are doing. This will be my last post addressing this outside of the thread where I posted my big response.

There shouldn't be rules like the ones you are suggesting. This is an open community. Generally, the only thing we need around here is respect, and if a person doesn't give that, I feel they are shunned pretty quickly. I believe referee used to be embroiled in such a matter, but he came around to be more respectful of others on the site. I think the GL community actually does a pretty good job of this even when there are disagreements (the present circumstances excepted).

Censorship...it's just not ok. That's not what we're about here. I hope you understand that life and discussion and art are not perfect things. You can't just delete things you find unfavorable, especially because what you find unfavorable may not be to another. Your use of "garbage" is interesting to evoke the thought, "One man's trash is another man's treasure."

Anyway, that's all I have to say here. I'll direct you back to my other response, and maybe we can go from there.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[extropalopakettle]

[Buzzsaw]

[Nsof]

some observations and extrapolations

- The addiction is much more about the habit than the physical need
- In extreme cases it can serve as a trigger for surfacing hard emotional/mental issues that lay buried deep inside. Hospitalization kind
- For many, it intensifies emotions so if you are sad/down don’t try it
- Don’t try the digestible (edible/drinkable) versions before trying to smoke, they are usually much stronger and with higher statistics of causing "down"

- There is a big lobby against legalization: Alcohol producers, pain killer manufacturers, tobacco companies, cotton growers, prison guards, private prisons companies. Basically, anyone who stands to lose a lot of money
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Will sell this place for beer

[Nsof]

Just to clarify: this is not critical thinking
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Will sell this place for beer

[The Potter]

I am not sure what sorts of false information that I have been told. I tend to forget things. And on a side note, I don't plan on using marijuana for awhile, mostly because I don't have access to it. My dad took away my drugs

On the side note: I had not used marijuana for about 3 days (my guess, could be very incorrect) before my episode. I think it did play a role in causing my mood to swing upward too much and no longer was health for me to use.

Orally consume THC (pot brownies) is very different compared to smoking. The influences are much slower and potentially much more intense. I found that it took about 40 minutes before I could even feel the effects and several hours before they passed. If you are unsure of the potency, I cannot recommend this method either.
But I found it more enjoyable than smoking.

Marijuana did help me snap out of being sad/down. This would have been sometime around May. I went from wanting to do nothing at all to completing projects. It was like turning on a switch that night.

So what are the negative sides to hemp and marijuana again?

[Lepton*]

I want to add two notes to our ongoing marijuana discussion here in the GL's libertarian corner.

1. A longitudinal study published last week correlated IQ decreases with smoking marijuana up to the age of 18. The usual mindless rebuttals exist.

2. I have a student who I understand grows and smokes with his father. I've seen the slide over the past year from curious ambition to slacker. It's heartwrenching.

[Buzzsaw]

What are some of the negatives of using Hemp? One of the negatives is that it impairs what I call 'compound thinking' - something you need, for example, to play chess.

"If A happens, and then B, and then C.." - you have to remember A and then B, then proceed to C, and then while continuing to remember A/B/C, proceed to D.
Smoking a little bit of weed might seem to make certain tasks less monotonous, or may seem to enhance concentration regarding menial tasks (like doing gardening chores, or folding laundry, etc). But it significantly impairs ones' ability to perform multi-tasks since it muddles with the short-term memory. I think this side effect/impairment was a major factor in the "longitudinal study" conclusion Lepton referred to, that pot use correlated IQ decreases.

[extropalopakettle]

[Zag]

[extropalopakettle]

Long term marijuana use studies (on people) are bound to have that flaw. One can't really randomly select two groups of teenagers, and have one group smoke marijuana daily for years, the other not. When the subjects individually select their own level of marijuana use (i.e. real people in real life), one needs to consider that there are possible causes behind that selection. I don't believe teens just randomly decide they're going to spend a few years constantly stoned.

[itisally]

I am always concerned when people self-medicate mental health issues. The inconsistant results of THC are the major reasons why I am not a fan of its medical use.

On the science of things. The ethics of how people must be treated seems to impair the progress of science. I don't think this is a reason to change. Double blind studies and forcing things on people that may not be safe seems wrong from a humanitarian point of view. But geez! We made a lot more discoveries when we didn't have to be nice.

All science starts with a hypothisis. Good science tries to proove it wrong, knowing that you can never really prove it true.
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I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[itisally]

Oh and while we are ranting about bad science (or the reporting of)

Corrolation is not cause!
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I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[Buzzsaw]

I did not read the study Lepton posted, but the findings sound reasonable enough.

The act of smoking puts carbon monoxide in the bloodstream and the THC contained in marijuana smoke has negative effects on memory retention, esp short term memory. If someone is stoned all the time, whether they're under or over 18 yrs of age, then of course they're going to be impaired. This is a no brainer. It's like saying "if you're stoned, well then, you're stoned". Who needs a study to figure out that when you're stoned all the time, you're going to have more difficulty remembering and functioning than if not stoned all the time. And does anyone dispute that one of the traits of being stoned on pot is being forgetful? Is forgetfulness something we should simply sweep aside in this discussion? Or can we agree that being forgetful is a negative - a compromise when measuring and determining levels of intelligence?

It's my opinion that for the creativity marijuana enhances, it overall puts to sleep a larger number of brilliant and creative ideas than it gives rise to. Ideas that literally and figuratively die in the silence of the mind, lost in the empty corridors forever. I base this opinion on considerable personal observation and experience over many years (have had experience with pot since the latter '70's).
As already pointed out in posts above this one, clinical studies are often flawed, and even well performed studies of this type are extremely difficult to iron out the variables of. Therefore we are often forced to draw our own conclusions. On that note, we regularly in our daily lives are left with little choice but to use our own observation, do the best we can to base our conclusions on simply what makes the most sense.

If a person asked my advice I would say "don't smoke pot", as I think it's an unhealthy choice - in the same regard I believe good diet and exercise to be healthy choices. Marijuana is regularly used by a people, whom in spite of using, maintain excellent overall health and IQ. But I don't think we should kid ourselves, for instance by failing to acknowledge the very act of smoking is unhealthy, or put the effects of THC on a medical magical pedestal of some sort.


If people want to get buzzed it would be great if they would at least just be honest about it instead of inventing some medical-crap reason why they need to get stoned, or how getting stoned helps them in some medicinal way. As an extreme mountain biker and in category true to the stereotype of many downhill skiers, surfers, and skateboarders, I have done my share indulging in this 'alternative lifestyle' while out on the riding trail. I and cronies have enjoyed smoking a couple puffs of weed - then riding though the woods over roots-and-rocks and in between trees at breakneck speeds. We don't pretend we're geniuses, or that we are taking our "medicine". We sheepishly acknowledge we're just idiots out having fun.

I do strongly agree that marijuana can help many people in a medical sense, like glaucoma sufferers for example. Living here in Michigan where it is legal though, it's amusing in an eye rolly sort of way all the people who rush forward citing "medical problems" in order to get their "medical card". People in our state can become "Care Givers" (that's what they call themselves, "care givers", is that corny or what? it's so lame my eyes hurt from rolling), they legally supply pot to others - or you can apply and become a "care giver" to yourself - manufacture and supply yourself with your very own "medicine", lol.

I can see the incentive taking advantage of the legal loophole state government has provided which in turn is making millions of dollars for them issuing these 'medical cards'. But I get tired of all the medical talk, since imo pot has a limited medical use. Esp with today's modern medical technology there is usually a better medical alternative avail than using THC, esp in the form of smoke. So recreational users, stop faking the medical problems and just admit you like to smoke a bowl. I am getting tired of ranting, it's starting to rain, and I want to go home.

~gets down off soapbox~

[Ally*]

I suddely wish I had a like button Buzzsaw.

[The Potter]

A change in focus is not a decrease in functionality. When I smoked, I was easy to distract. So I did it alone. Because being distracted easily was coupled with highly focused thoughts. So when smoking was coupled with positive behaviors like drawing or painting the results were outstanding.

I doubt I will use marijuana more than about twice in a week again. Which is about as often as I intend to have a beer or two.

[itisally*]

I don't doubt the short term benifits. Short trem is great, creative, free flowing, lack cronic pain (for those to whome this applies).What troubles me is the long trem costs I have observed in some habitual users. Not all, by any means. If I did a risk annalysis based on my observations of longterm, moderate (not daily) use I wouldn't take the risk for the short term gain. This is especially true when I could not know my chances of having a more than average negative long term impact on short term memory transfer. I know people who have that problem for a variety of reasons and it is damaging to thier relationships and productivity.

[angelssa*]

You can also search for the information regarding medical cannabis dispensaries or medical marijuana in California. Medical marijuana in California is for the medical treatment of diseases of cancer or aids.

medical marijuana in California

[Jack_Ian]

I had a good friend become severely disabled from Schizophrenia directly attributed to his long-term and heavy use of marijuana.
I am not saying that it should be banned, but it's important to know the truth (whatever that may be).
The Link Between Marijuana and Schizophrenia
Marijuana May Both Trigger and Suppress Psychosis

[samthesham*]

Hi, if one wants to test critical thinking skills administer a math test before and after one gets high. I don't think how good an art piece is, which is totally subjective, is a very good measure of critical thinking skills.

I got high last night after abstaining for a week and I am doing a self study out of a rigorous book on mechanics (newtonian physics). In days previous I was able to thinking linearly and constructively. Now (after smoking) my mind wonders and becomes in awe of various stimuli but I cant focus or deduce certain connections between concepts needed to solve the problems in the text. For a scientist, I would like say, from my own narrow view, that pot is a detriment to anyone who thinks critically on a daily basis (Im sorry painting a church on a vase is not critical thinking).

Also, my dads a starving artist by trade and I am fairly advanced musician. I have experienced that flow of seemingly endless creativity that one gets when playing an instrument while high, improvising a string of catchy melodies, any one of which could be the basis for a great song. But, as buzzsaw pointed out, those ideas return to the ether as soon as they arrive.

For something like math, where problems have only one unique solution and are not up for creative interpretation, pot is definitely a hinderance. Even while high doing math, one will get profound insight, but without the ability to think in a linear manner and the inability to retain that insight after one comes off the high again makes pot a hinderance.