SURVIVOR MAFIA- TOWN WINS reunion show

[Mackay]

TGC, you're lying again. Please point out where I said anything at ALL about the "preposterousness" of a redirector role. All I have said on the matter is that I don't think it is a role that Rupert would have, and a response to Zag's question about alternative explanations. For all I know you're telling half-truths about your role and you're a mafia-aligned redirector. How the hell should I know? I just know it's nothing a doctor and a vig couldn't do.
On that subject, I'm terribly sorry that I didn't express unwavering certainty about roles I don't have. I didn't realise "blind, stupid bravado" was what was required to look like a good townie. I only know my role, so I can't speculate on the identities of potential vigilantes. I thought I detected a hint somewhere. That's as specific as I'm willing to get.

You're saying I "can't drop" that you stated "lynch all deceivers" - after I pointed it out, you claimed that you somehow don't count as a deceiver, and I rebutted. Two posts from me so far. (If that's tireless dedication/fixation to you, I'm afraid you're going to become quite bored of me by the end of today.). Sorry I'm not "letting drop" that you lied to the town and are now demanding that we follow you. You are not only using some pretty shabby rhetoric, but you are also missing my point. You could have said "MNOWAX, you are a deceiver, and it is better that we lynch you". You didn't. You said "lynch all deceivers". That is an absolute. And you are expecting me to believe that you would have said such a thing while knowing that you were planning on having a "big reveal". I don't buy it. I think you just thought of the claim today when you saw Sentran was in danger, and didn't check for consistency with your past statements.

Why would you use the specific, absolute phrase "lynch all deceivers" if you were planning to reveal your own deception to the town?

You still haven't told me what I've lied about, after claiming that I am a liar. (Big call from someone whose topic of the day is "Hey guys! I lied to you all! But you should totally obey me this time!", btw.) You are claiming that somehow your lies are more virtuous than other people's lies. I'm sorry if I don't buy that when the aim of your "big reveal" is to inexplicably protect Sentran.

The point of lynching you is that I believe you are scum. Because that's how mafia is played. You lynch the people you think are scum. It is better to have more information about the scum sooner, not to enact a highly flawed plan designed to give a probable mafioso another night. Has Sentran got an ability and you want him to survive to use it? Is that it?

[Elethiomel]

[Mackay]

You're right, I reread the last few posts and I've gotten hot-headed again. I'm really annoyed at being accused of "making up tales" by the guy who's been shamelessly lying to us (but in a totally "non-deceptive" way, apparently).

It caused me to ignore the one salient point buried in the sudden onslaught of not-so-great ones:
If there is not a vigilante, I don't have a better explanation for what happened to 3iff.

I mean I'm sure there are some wacky roles or timed/backfiring powers out there that could fit the criteria, but in my opinion the simplest alternate explanation is a vig.
Everything about the claim is SO sketchy to me though. The timing, the insistence on keeping Sentran alive, the lying, just everything.

And the plan! In order for it to work, assuming there is more than one mafioso left (a very safe assumption in my opinion), the mod has to have put in both a mafia who are only allowed to have one person do the killing, AND a nonstandard redirector who isn't from the usual mould of "move the *target* from one person to another", but instead gets to pick an individual and direct their choice. In other words, the game would have to be utterly broken for TGC's plan to work. And he has handwaved this fact away repeatedly, insisting instead on keeping Sentran alive.

[The Great Crep'er]

[Mackay]

[Mackay]

I've got a commitment this weekend that I forgot about until today. I'll *probably* still be able to read and maybe post, but my activity will be greatly diminished until Sunday night. Just a heads-up in case I don't get back to the computer.

[Amb]

This is how I interpret Mackay
1. I say she might be scum, and she flies off the handle at me.
2. She casts aspersions on everyone who claims anything - except when it came to "Coach" who actually was scum. TGC claims to have affected the kill last night, so Mackay immediately disbelieves. People claim Mason, and she doesn't want to believe that. THe only claim Mackay has actually believed all game is and was Parvati Shallow. The very mafiaete that she named as well.
3. She asks what I did with the fake idols, but it was her I used the first one on. That's why I am waiting to see if using the idol does anything PM-wise to Zag.
4. She is, when town, very analytical and generally very good at catching scum. But her reactions are all knee-jerk.

Mackay is scum with rm. TO me she is clearly tied to him. But it matters little right now, because we have a smoking gun. If TGC is lying, we have him dead in the water anyway.

I just find it completely staggering that Mackay will defend the person who claimed coach, but will attack the person who claimed Rupert.

I'd vote her right now, but like the ElethioNtran mix earlier, we can wait. Elethiomel proved his ability. Sentran did not. TGC's information and claim means a lynch MUST be forth coming on Sentran. And btw, if I was to guess who MNO might have culted - TGC does NOT spring to mind at all!

[The Great Crep'er]

Mackay: If the mafia had already gotten to decide who picked the kill throughout the entire game, maybe you can explain to me why they chose Sentran for the kill that was not 3iff, when he was already made conspicuous by the Crawley claim? Or, if you still don't believe me, maybe you could come up with feasible grounds for why things went down the way they did which you have consistently failed to do.

1. I had already stated that my response towards you and role flavor was misinterpreted by ME. My bad. The fact that you have to continue to carry forward with this point and disparage my reading comprehension is both dickish and uncalled for. (Which is partly why I want to talk less with you and more with others because you are just coming across too hostile for me, frankly, and I won't discuss logic and reason with someone who has a bent.)

2. If you have a complaint with the way the role works, you take it up with the mod, not me. Okay?

3. Obviously I won't address "the game is broken" complaints with the mechanics of my role if I can read my role PM! Your issues are better discussed with a mafia philosopher or another player. There is no point in this argument I am going to agree with you and say "You're right, my role is pretty improbable", so stop looking for one.

P.S. I never called you a communist. I said those who would wish to come up with that rebuttal to my argument and just EXPECTED me to have the same values as them towards said matter were and furthermore it was never intended to be that serious of a statement!

Now---Obviously I didn't claim my role, out my information, and unveil my plan to you all, just for you all to diddle the chance at nabbing an extra bad guy away. So if you think I'm just going to sit down and let this happen with the possibility of a cult win, you are wrong.

And the reason I bring it up is because we have no reason to be confident that MNOWAX's demise was the be all and end all for those guys. If on the .1% (To a lot of you anyways) that these people DON'T stop recruiting, it means they are a sizable enough threat to go through and win the game. And with a possible MNOWAX recruit plus Night 2 and Night 3, it means if we lynch Sentran there's a good chance we lose the game anyways to cult!

These are just things I want you to think about it. And so far the only person who has thoroughly weighed all outcomes and not just rested on his lapels, is Zag!

[The Great Crep'er]

And Amb I resent that analysis if only because if I were scum, I would probably view rm as a deadweight. There is not that much worth saving in a playstyle like his with his infrequent appearances and reluctance to give opinions (Sorry to bash you like that, rm. Just a bad outing for you this time around, I suppose?) and it hardly seems worth it for Mackay, as a scum, to go and intentionally make those connections with a recluse. It would be outside the interests of a scum to link themselves to a player who they know is in a "sinking stone" position. (At least smart scum, anyways. Mackay plays pretty smart as town anyways, so I assume the two are convertible. And that's one of the few I'm willing to make.)

[Elethiomel]

[Captin Aniima]

I had a long time to think about it over the week and three days and now I have seen more stuff and it made me realize that un-voting him was the wrong idea.

Today is a new day and I'm not giving up if you lynch me.

I know I am trying awfully hard and because of it I may be lynched or killed tonight so I went through and ISO'd everyone. This is the list I came up with.

Scum:
1. Sentran
2. Ralphmerridew

town:
1. TGC
2 Jedo the Jedi
3. Elthiomel
others whom I had no read on

Mackay
Zag
amb

I'm not that good at posting my thoughts and I'm sorry about that because I know you guys need more to go off but I don’t really know how to organize my thoughts in a way that you can understand -hence crappy and more often then that confusing posts-. I'll try my best to say a little bit about everyone that are on my defined lists. I hope it makes sense.

Sentran- scummy hes jumpy in votes, his behavior posts wise takes a major flip when hes caught. his playing as a town doesn’t match up with his game play now.

Ralphmerridew- posts for a little bit then stops posting until attacked then puts in rehashes of others opinions then disappears without making an attempt to try and post more often.

TGC- long posts but going through I realize there was a lot of fluff then a change from fluff to info.

jedo- I don’t think he would be coming back to life if he wasn’t in the same side as before. UM doesn’t seem to want either side to have an advantage (shown when jadesmar was removed).

El- this one is just a gut feeling I seriously never doubted that he was town from the start but I really don’t have much to go off of. its just a vibe.
_________________
Just sayin... The sky is blue.

[The Great Crep'er]

[The Great Crep'er]

For Elethiomel:

Here is the statement I had prepared on Zag and planned to post before becoming entangled with Mackay's horns...

[Zag]

[Amb]

Unvote; Vote Mackay

If TGC tells the truth, then we have Sentran dead in the water - and we have to find the cultist. We cannot forget that there might not be any. And its very unlikely that a cultist that was recruited would be given the ability to recruit more.

[Amb]

If TGC is lying, then I agree - it's a brilliant gambit. But it's a strange gambit.

[Elethiomel]

TGC, here's the thing about your claim that makes no sense to me. On all three nights, you chose to redirect the action of player A to target player B. This only helps town if both A and B are scum. So why not force A to target himself instead? That way, you only need A to be scum in order to help town, and you never risk killing a townie. The latter strategy is clearly superior, so why didn't you follow it all along? We know that you thought about it, because you yourself said you could force Sentran to kill himself. (Still, you persist in keeping a suspiciously open door for letting him live.)

As I believe I have given you ample time to convince me otherwise,

Vote Sentran

[Elethiomel]

Mod: Could we have a vote count please?

[The Great Crep'er]

[The Great Crep'er]

[Elethiomel]

You are keeping a suspiciously open door for letting Sentran live through the night. As in "why make more work for ourselves in the end?"

[Zag]

[Zag]

It is less helpful if A is a town roleblocker, though; perhaps even dangerously misleading. In any case, TGC might not have thought of it.
_________________

[Zag]

(Sorry for the triple post.)

Eleth and Sentran, I would especially like you two to respond to my accusation against Mackay. I think that it could help us decide which of the two of you is scum. (That is, if I'm right about her, which I believe I am.)
_________________

[Elethiomel]

Zag, I think your accusation against Mackay is weakly founded.

Apparently, it's based on two posts, which are separated by volumes of other content. It looks like cherry picking, and like an argument constructed to support a given conclusion, rather than the result of actual reasoning.

Post 459: http://www.greylabyrinth.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?p=519692#519692

Post 619: http://www.greylabyrinth.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?p=520232#520232

I don't see anything particularly suspicious about either of those posts. I don't think you summarized them very accurately, either. I have a hard time seeing how you would suddenly become convinced she is scum based on those two posts. So again, I think your accusation is a poor one.

I also disagree with the conclusion, not just the argument. Mackay has been giving me very genuine scumhunting vibes, in general. She also made what looks to me like a very genuine attack on Sentran back on day 1. So I think they are on opposing teams - and Sentran certainly isn't town. Mackay could have been recruited into a cult, but you can say that about anyone. (At any rate, that isn't what you're accusing her of.)

And now, as you have already alluded to, you will undoubtedly try to sweeten the deal and argue that the case for lynching Mackay has been strengthened, since lynching her will shed so much light on the whole Elethiomel/Sentran conundrum. So let me add that I will happily give my opinion on any other lynch candidate you propose, as well.

By the way, what exactly does this mean?

[Amb]

The thing is, Mackay hasn't been giving me a town vibe since I suggested she might not be town. She was clearly believing things such as the Coach claim when it was convenient for her, and not other things (mason claims, TGC's claim) when it wasn't convenient. She gives me the impression of someone who is acting a scum hunt.

TGC could be lying about his ability. But if so, he is either mafia and killing his own team - or we don't have a real reason for 3iffidew dying.

To me: Sentran is the scum now of Elethiomel/Sentran. Eleth backed up his ability. Sentran hasn't. This makes it far more likely that Sentran is the scum. We are ONLY not lynching Sentran right now on the basis that TGC could take care of him later. This is probably a bad strategy on our part, firstly because we don't know what other caveats the mafia have. I mean - does anyone know what a Mafia Flirt actually is? I sure don't. (I could look it up of course).

But the thing is Mackay is giving such strong mafia signals to me. I'm willing to risk it. But if no-one is going to follow, then I want Sentran toasted. Realistically we shouldn't ignore a cross claim twice in a row.

[Amb]

Unvote; Vote Sentran

I'm convinced Mackay is scum. BUt no matter how convinced I am. I'm going to look mighty stupid if I shove a town mackay to death, while leaving a near-known, cross-claiming, ability-less mafiaete to carry his side to victory.

[Zag]

[Mackay]

Or I'm attacking him the way a townie attacks scum.

I don't know if it's bad that my immediate thoughts went this way instead of to my own defense, but my immediate reaction to Zag's accusation is that it is basically to be expected. I have all but accepted as fact that he is a cultist, and I think that he knows to expect that I will argue strongly for his lynching somewhere down the line. He has mentioned (I don't recall if it is here or in other games) that he fears me as a player.

If Zag is a lone cultist, then I think his assessment of his situation would be that the chances of his survival are already very low, but with me alive they are almost negligible. (Apologies if I am giving myself too much credit on Zag's behalf. This is a little embarrassing to say.) He will agree, I think, that he sees me as a danger when he is a member of an antitown faction. I believe that this sentiment is probably in play currently - and that he started as town, which is why he was happy to admit that it was the case.

BUT - I readily admit that a Zagcultist attacking me is exactly zero argument against my potential mafiahood. It's just an explanation for why I am contradictorily (Is that a word?) catching heat for behaviours consistent with my other pro-town games from a player who places value on the "I don't do X as scum" school of arguments.

I'm reading this and thinking "Now I actually sound like a scum trying to cast aspersions".* Ha. I want to say it anyway, as it is my initial reaction, and I think that it is worth recording for when we wish to evaluate the case for Zag's culthood down the road. Besides, I do wish to discredit his arguments - at least to the extent that I want to point out that the motive behind them is not the town's best interest, but Zag's own. (Also, the fact that he's accusing me.)

Zag, I'm pretty sure you are genuinely trying to catch mafia, so I'd really rather work with you than argue against you. I'm willing to answer any questions you may have about my behaviour, though I have no idea whether they will be satisfactory. I do think that you need to be more skeptical with regard to TGC - your willingness to follow a plan that likely leaves Sentran alive based on allegiations of a broken game mechanic is uncharacteristic. Your belief that I am mafia and aligned with Elethiomel makes the execution of TGC's plan a mistake anyway, as it leaves both crossclaimers alive without proving anything.


Amb, as expected, is revising history. =) He stopped being reasonable toward me or my arguments the minute I questioned his behaviour toward Deception. Amb, when is the last time you objectively evaluated the strength of one of my arguments (more to the point, should I even bother responding to your accusations - including the ones to which I already responded, only to have you declare that you were ignoring me from now on)?

I am going to respond to the actual arguments, just wanted to check back in and post my initial response.

* Hey Amb: now one of your points against me has a basis in reality. Enjoy.

[Amb]

Regardless of whether I am right (I am) or wrong about Mackay.

We should be stringing up Sentran. We have no choice. The cult can't get any bigger in all probability. And if it can, then by now that's the only outcome this game is going to get anyway: Because it would be grossly over powered.

[The Great Crep'er]

[Mackay]

[Amb]

We ignored a cross claim once already. We have to try to get rid of the second mafiaete.

Firstly, I believe your claim TGC (on account of it being too hard to fake, and would require you to off your own mafiaete) and you can redirect Sentran's attempts to kill. But that isn't enough. If we have mafia on our plate, we should try to get rid of them. I would hate to lose this game from strategic mistakes of not lynching. Yes Elethiomel could be scum, and Sentran innocent. But if Sentran isn't scum, then you can redirect Elethiomel away from you and we have Elethiomel dead in the morning.

Secondly: If this is a gambit on your part, and we don't lynch one of the Crawleys - we run a serious risk of losing soon. And we all come out looking like the worst town in GL existence.

Right now: Elethiomel has proven his ability. Sentran has not. That factor alone is the only thing keeping Eleth alive, because Jadesmar was damnably scummy in his posting style.

I want to see Mackay turfed out of survivor. But I cannot take the risk. I've been rabid on innocents before. I'd rather we sorted out the name clash. It was the whole reason we all claimed names in the first place.

[Amb]

The other factor is: There are probably 3 scum. I hope not 4. If there are 3, there is only one killer left with Sentran deceased. Therefore: You stand a better chance of having a killer kill themselves. You cant redirect a player who doesnt get sent to kill.

[Mackay]

A little thing that I found funny:

I just went back to go and address Zag, so I looked up the posts that he referenced. 459 contains a direct reference to my defense of Amb's claim, and 619 contains a direct reference to the fact that I supported Creper's day 1 claim.

I like the fact that one's case against me contains the evidence that the other is blatantly lying about me. =)

[The Great Crep'er]

[Mackay]

So, uh. Upon reading the offending posts more thoroughly, I think my response to Zag isn't going to be very complex, because I just... well, I don't really see anything wrong with them.

[Elethiomel]

[Mackay]

Creper: You are again having arguments against yourself. I've got no idea what you are talking about so it's safe to assume that I wasn't addressing you.

The reason several of your "arguments" toward me have gone unanswered as yet are:
a) I wanted you to address the likelihood of the specific game mechanic first. You have, sort of, and I'll most likely respond to that in my next reply to this thread, when I get to it.
b) I was away from my computer for several days. I posted about this in the thread.
c) When I came back, I had received votes. Addressing that fact takes higher priority for me than meticulously sifting through your posts trying to figure out the point.

You are acting like a petulant child. Your last post is essentially "I'm taking my toys and going home". For someone who said they were willing to listen to the town's opinions of his plan, you sure are throwing a hell of a tantrum about people not agreeing to let Sentran survive for another night.

I hope you don't interpret that as an attack on your character - it seems to me that you take arguments very personally. Given my aggressive style of arguing and my annoyance with your posting, I'm a little concerned that I'm going to make you actively dislike me, and I'd rather that not be the case. However, the above is how I feel you are behaving in this instance. Throwing a hissy fit because the town isn't going to fall into line behind you after you displayed a willingness to mislead them "for the greater good" isn't going to help you achieve your ends, whether pro-town or not.

[Undercover Monk]

long over-due vote-count