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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:42 am Post subject: 41 |
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Here's the part that has always bothered me about this, and maybe I'm just being a relic of the past here. But insurance SHOULD be optional. Always. It should never have been a mandate in the first place. The entire POINT of insurance was added protection in case something goes wrong, but an OPTIONAL protection. Yea, you can buy it, and probably should, but if you're confident that you're in a good neighborhood/a safe driver/young and healthy, you can skip it to save some money, and if something DOES come up, you've opted to take personal responsibility to pay for it. You OUGHT to be able to cover the charges yourself, without the NEED of insurance backing you up. In fact, a good number of those "uninsured" that people kept pointing out weren't uninsured because they couldn't afford it, they were, like myself, OPTING OUT, choosing not to, becuase they were young and were more interested in saving money rather than getting insurance. I'm getting a bit older now, my situation is changing, and I'm looking into getting health insurance through work, changing my policy. This is how things should operate. We shouldn't be forced to buy something or they'll take our money away anyway. _________________ * These senseless ramblings brought to you by Insanity™. If you just can't figure the dang thing out, it must be Insanity™.
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Termital
Daedalian Member
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:05 am Post subject: 42 |
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| Death Mage wrote: |
Look, it's a simple matter of efficiency. A true private sector is better for the whole than a government run... nearly anything. It may not be better for select individuals, but overall, private sector is cheaper, faster, more efficient. |
Mackay documented via international comparisons, and others via first-hand observation, the assertion is patently false in the field of healthcare by any reasonable measure. I'd like to add Veteran Administration to the list of things to consider: state-run, disadvantageous patient pool, markedly cheaper on any given treatment.
However, since the known optimal solution is not deemed politically feasible, the administration had to settle for a more complex, more intermediated (and hence less efficient) system. What I'm talking about is a scheme concocted by that known liberal bastion, the Reagan-era Heritage Foundation. The scheme was tested, if you will, with some success at the state level by one presidential candidate, then enacted at the country level by the president, and has been known to grace both their names with care.
Somebodycare basically boils down to 3 things:- Community rating: because otherwise health care is only going to be available to those who don't really need it, while those with known serious conditions are left incapable of insuring themselves. Without it, your options for the latter are:
- burdening the government (Medicare, Medicaid and various ad-hoc patches), or
- leaving them without care. Because nothing says civilisation like a cripple rolling in a shopping cart and the occasional epidemic.
- Universal mandate: Now that you've propped the insurers' door open, they're vulnerable to adverse selection. For any given value of average insured health, healthier than average people get a raw deal and thus would drop out sans mandate. The price of insurance then rises. Repeat a few times until the insurer (in fact, all insurers) go bust.
- Means-tested insurance subsidies: Because for some unlucky few, affordable means not what we think it means,
Oddly enough, illness coincides with higher than normal expenses and reduced earning capacity. Frankly, there are bad things that can happen to you that are fixable, but whose fix you are never going to be able to afford on your own in any case. Enter health insurance, for smoothing the vanilla financial drain, and also hedging your bets against debilitation, aging and death. Some of you may like your chances, and would like to stay out. To which I say you're fools; long term, low probability, high impact events are exactly the kind of things both economists and psychologists know we suck at intuitively analysing, and you're doing it wrong. You're also probably not accounting for the second order benefits of living in an overall healthier, happier, more productive community. So put the mandate in the same column as obeying the stop lights and eating your greens; sucky things that do you good.
On a personal note, I have to say I don't really get certain posters here. I remember the sheer disbelief I felt, several years ago, when a member, (at the risk of egg on my face, I think it was DM), reported a bill of $15K over two clean bone breaks. And yet, here they are, apologising for the current system, by blaming its complexity, insufficiency and expense to government regulation. What specific regulations are being talked about, and how they result in the current situation is left as a hopeless exercise for the reader (well, hopeless for this reader at least). _________________
Better ways to push & pull!
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:15 am Post subject: 43 |
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| Death Mage wrote: |
| Here's the part that has always bothered me about this, and maybe I'm just being a relic of the past here. But insurance SHOULD be optional. Always. It should never have been a mandate in the first place. The entire POINT of insurance was added protection in case something goes wrong, but an OPTIONAL protection. Yea, you can buy it, and probably should, but if you're confident that you're in a good neighborhood/a safe driver/young and healthy, you can skip it to save some money, and if something DOES come up, you've opted to take personal responsibility to pay for it. You OUGHT to be able to cover the charges yourself, without the NEED of insurance backing you up. In fact, a good number of those "uninsured" that people kept pointing out weren't uninsured because they couldn't afford it, they were, like myself, OPTING OUT, choosing not to, becuase they were young and were more interested in saving money rather than getting insurance. I'm getting a bit older now, my situation is changing, and I'm looking into getting health insurance through work, changing my policy. This is how things should operate. We shouldn't be forced to buy something or they'll take our money away anyway. |
The problem is that you can get the care without paying for it, because hospitals are not allowed to turn away people with life-threatening issues. Then the hospital (or the government) gets stuck for the bill.
And people use it constantly, and it has been extended (rightly or wrongly, and I think I know which you'll say) to all sorts of non-life-threatening problems. People think that the doctor is a heartless bastard if he doesn't take the 15 minutes it takes to look at a toddler with an earache and prescribe some Amoxicillin, but four or five of those a day that he doesn't get paid for can be a huge drain on his life. Essentially the medical professionals get "taxed" into providing free services for those with no insurance and no money. Are you saying that is fair? Or are you saying that the doctors should flat out refuse to give any treatment to anyone without insurance or ability to pay on their own?
What's even MORE aggravating is that the cost for health care given this way (through Emergency Rooms) is much higher than health care through a normal physician. Not only are the freeloaders sticking the tax-payers with the bill, but it's a much higher bill than it would be if they just had insurance.
It is similar to the argument that everyone who drives should have collision insurance. (That is, they should carry insurance that at least pays the other person if they cause an accident.) Why do you have the right to drive drunk in your beat up old Ford, bash into my new Mercedes and put me in the hospital, and then get away without paying anything just because you don't have any money or insurance? _________________
| Death Mage wrote: |
| I couldn't agree with you more, Zag. |
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Quailman
His Postmajesty
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Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:10 am Post subject: 44 |
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| DM wrote: |
| ...Yea, you can buy it, and probably should, but if you're confident that you're in a good neighborhood/a safe driver/young and healthy, you can skip it to save some money, and if something DOES come up, you've opted to take personal responsibility to pay for it. You OUGHT to be able to cover the charges yourself, without the NEED of insurance backing you up... |
Perhaps people who opt out of insurance should be required to carry health affordability cards which clearly tells the treating professional or facility exactly how much you can cover, so that the provider isn't left hanging. If you present at the ER with a broken collar bone and a broken fibula, but your resources are only sufficent to cover one or the other, you'll be asked which bone you want them to set.
You're young and healthy. You and Mrs. Mage save up enough to afford to have a little Mage, so you go ahead and get her pregnant. Things are going fine. You're paying for the prenatal visits as you go, and suddenly pop! Mrs. Mage's water breaks in her 25th week. She is sent to the hospital where she remains for five weeks and two days. She gets an ultrasound to check on the fetus every day. Then, when Baby Mage arrives ten weeks early, he has to spend four weeks in Neonatal ICU. Mrs. Mage's hospital bill alone is 29 pages single spaced and comes to more than $100,000. That's the sort of thing insurance is designed to cover. If you've opted out of insurance, maybe the hospital should just let you fend for yourself, because they'll never see an appreciable portion of that money.
I hate the thought of government mandated healthcare, but I hate the schmucks who think they're invincible even more. Government shouldn't have to make us do the right thing. Insurance is there to cover the unexpected. If you're that confident that nothing will happen to you, then take a policy with a high deductible. If you don't have insurance, don't go to the hospital when the unexpected catastrophic event occurs.
(BTW, the scenario I described is based on Mrs. Q and my son, who is now 19.) |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:48 am Post subject: 45 |
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I still have some issues with this. (I jotted these down a month ago, so they are a little disconnected from the original process. Bear with me as I hash them out.)
1) What does the Affordable Care Act do other than require free-market participation in the health insurance sector? As I've mentioned, I'm not opposed to this notion, but it seems they wouldn't need such a big piece of legislation for just that. Considering the government's recent crack-downs on credit card companies and banks, I imagine there are some regulations on the insurance providers.
2) If they are making every citizen purchase health insurance like they do with car insurance, will they be offering "healthy living" discounts or something similar to "safe driver" discounts? I mean, if we have to participate, there should still be things to make one option more attractive than another.
3) If the purpose of this Act is to lower costs of insurance and health care by avoiding the tax burden of uninsured people coming to the hospital, will they be regulating hospitals and their pricing? I mean, is the Tylenol given at the hospital really any more special than the Tylenol at the drugstore? It seems like this sort of thing is also part of the problem.
And now a story of my own...
A few years ago, I went to the hospital because of a urethral blockage. I had had the problem years before, but there was no real resurgence warranting a doctor visit. I had been told as long as nothing seemed amiss, not to worry about it. Well, at this event, I could pass my water one drop at a time, but it was agony. After waiting five hours in the emergency room (in the middle of the night), the doctor concluded that, since I could empty my bladder, nothing was wrong.
Not eight hours later, I returned to the emergency room with complete blockage. I waited another four hours in the emergency room before I was attended to. (It was apparently a very busy day at this hospital.) This time it took three attendants three different catheters to empty my bladder. (When they showed me the one that hooks on the end, I nearly jumped off the bed.) They concluded I needed to see a specialist and have surgery.
A few months later, I received a bill from the hospital for nearly $2,000--$1,000 for each visit. The bulk of the expense was "the room" in which I spent less than an hour each time. I received almost no medical attention during the first stay except a short visit by the doctor to question me about my experience--I'm pretty sure he was an intern no less--and the second was just an emptying of my bladder and the doctor deciding I needed to see a specialist.
Why is this acceptable? It seems to me if there needs to be legislation in this area, it should at least be comprehensive of the entire problem. I acknowledge that the insurance system is in need of an overhaul and that it is contributing to higher hospital costs incurred from covering the uninsured people the hospital cares for pro bono, but I think they need to address those costs as well. Maybe I'm missing something in the ACA. _________________ Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:58 am Post subject: 46 |
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It is anticipated that insurance companies, in competition with each-other, will keep a closer watch on their payouts and therefore control what hospitals charge.
You will find that not all hospitals will be covered by your policy as some are deemed to be too expensive.
If hospitals want to survive, then they will have to provide treatment within a budget set by the insurance company.
Of course, the more expensive hospitals with state-of-the-art equipment will then be supported by more expensive policies that only the rich can afford. |
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