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Scurra
Daedalian Member
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 Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: 161 |
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| 3iff wrote: |
| So, is there a problem with the definition being in the middle of a clue? |
Yes, one of the very few cast-iron "rules" of cryptics is that the definition must appear at one end or the other. Otherwise it would be almost impossible to figure out what you were supposed to do! (In a contest where we know the intended answer, the temptation is to write a clue that only works when you do know it; more than a few entries this time suffered from that syndrome, including some of mine. Although having said that, crosswords have check letters that help considerably with solving, which a stand-alone contest like this does not have.
I mentally rewrote your clue as "It's an achievement to blow up Italy instead of Germany" - which read better to me, but that may well be just personal - and then gave the revised version a medal!
I would note that you may have a slight advantage as a newcomer to writing cryptics in that you won't necessarily be hidebound by traditional forms - I would never have thought of some of your ideas, which is why I rated them quite highly even though they may have been flawed in execution. But a whole puzzle of "quirky" might be hard to take...
_________________
still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon
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3iff
very unbifflike
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:52 am Post subject: 162 |
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PILL becoming PL - I really didn't like that idea so it got nothing from me.
CHRIS - Too many singers called Chris...Rea wasn't my first (or even second) thought.
DISP - definitely NOT a common BASIC command so that clue failed for me.
JORDAN'S PROMOTION... - I, too, thought of Katie Price (horrible thought) or the country of Jordan. The basketball? player is someone I would never have considered. (same thought pattern as Scurra)
| Scurra wrote: |
I would note that you may have a slight advantage as a newcomer to writing cryptics in that you won't necessarily be hidebound by traditional forms - I would never have thought of some of your ideas, which is why I rated them quite highly even though they may have been flawed in execution. But a whole puzzle of "quirky" might be hard to take...
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True. I don't necessarily know what I'm doing and I have no knowledge of the official style, hence some of my ideas can be quirky or downright odd. It's also why I made an effort to try clueing with different ideas...otherwise I'd be using anagrams all the time.
Thanks to everyone for all the comments...I shall be trying to improve my score next time! |
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Scurra
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:00 am Post subject: 163 |
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| esme wrote: |
| I would also be happy with a detailed critique of my clues.. |
I'll bite.
DEARTH
4th - esme - 7 points (0 G / 1 S / 5 B) - The central trade organization gives rise to supply shortage.
I gave this one a medal because I liked the flukey double working (well I assume it was a fluke!) The surface reading was a bit odd though (surely an organisation wouldn't “give rise” to something; the actions of an organisation might. "Supply shortage caused by the central trade organisation" perhaps?)
DISPLEASE
BRONZE - esme - 7 points (2 G / 0 S / 1 B) - Aggravate sickness swallowing a homeopathic pill.
Already commented about this one; not understanding the trick probably stopped me from rewarding it.
EXPLOIT
11th - esme - 0 points (0 G / 0 S / 0 B) - Investigating city-center without initial orientation is an achievement.
Bordering on the indirect anagram problem for me – turning O into RING before deleting it from another unspecified word didn't quite work. A more direct RING clue would have been much better. (A quirky UK version might have tried a reference to "ring road" in contrast to "city centre"!)
IMPROMPTU
6th - esme - 6 points (0 G / 2 S / 2 B) - Improvised PR partially surpasses the modelled optimum.
Not sure why I took against this. Maybe because my reading of "surpasses" didn't suggest insertion; it felt more like a surrounding (P-optimum-R rather than opti-PR-mum).
NASCENT
10th - esme - 2 points (0 G / 0 S / 2 B) - Budding narcissi left a perfume.
Nothing especially wrong with this one.
NIGHT
8th - esme - 3 points (0 G / 1 S / 1 B) - The dark time's noble fighter beheaded.
This suffered from being far more clunky than DejMar's entry but that's all.
NIKE
5th - esme - 5 points (0 G / 1 S / 3 B) - The goddess of victory leads nonbelievers into final bleak debacle.
Surface reading seemed odd to me but that's all. I liked the consistency of the idea though, even if it led to a long-winded clue.
REALM
SILVER - esme - 15 points (2 G / 4 S / 1 B) - They're almost inside the kingdom.
Definitely my favourite of your clues, even though the surface reading sounded like only half a sentence. The problem is that adding an exclamation to make it sound like a shout would make it look as though it were an &lit.
SHOT
12th - esme - 1 point (0 G / 0 S / 1 B) - Every seventh flying saucer chancing on a US city is damaged by gunfire.
Very ambitious idea; I didn't really get on with the surface reading.
TRANSPOSITION
6th - esme - 5 points (0 G / 2 S / 1 B) - A conversion moving around initial pitch of symphony!
This just suffered from novice doing a slightly more elegant version. Again, I didn't really get on with the surface reading.
Looking back at these comments, it's clear that I sometimes didn't get on with your surface readings and you sometimes didn't get on with mine!
_________________
still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon
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Vagrant
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:11 am Post subject: 164 |
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I think the results of both contests so far prove that it's very difficult to write a clue that satisfies everybody. One man's meat is another man's poison.
| Scurra wrote: |
| Yes, one of the very few cast-iron "rules" of cryptics is that the definition must appear at one end or the other. |
Whilst that statement is generally true, it's not exactly 'cast-iron' and can be broken in triple clues. In my clue for NASCENT, for example, the definition is in the middle and there is a wordplay element at either end, but, the two wordplay elements operate independently of each other.
I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of people here who'll happily disagree with me over that and say it's also wrong in triple clues but you will see it done in published crosswords. It's only rare because triple clues are rare. |
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Vagrant
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:28 am Post subject: 165 |
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| esme wrote: |
| I would also be happy with a detailed critique of my clues.. |
I pretty much agree with everything Scurra said except ...
NIGHT
8th - esme - 3 points (0 G / 1 S / 1 B) - The dark time's noble fighter beheaded.
I thought this was the best of all the clues for NIGHT (that weren't mine  .)
REALM
SILVER - esme - 15 points (2 G / 4 S / 1 B) - They're almost inside the kingdom.
This clue wobbled in and out of my medal choices. Exclamation marks (so the surface reading appeared to be an announcement) would have sealed the deal.
SHOT
12th - esme - 1 point (0 G / 0 S / 1 B) - Every seventh flying saucer chancing on a US city is damaged by gunfire.
I thought every seventh letter was a bit much. I would draw the line in a cryptic clue at every third - anything higher than that and the wordplay indicator becomes too obvious to be part of a good surface reading so my overall opinion of the clue will lessen. |
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3iff
very unbifflike
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:46 am Post subject: 166 |
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esme, my views on your clues. I almost always consider the clue as presented without seeing the explanation first. If I didn't understand how to work the clue then it usually fell out of the scoring.
DEARTH
4th - esme - 7 points (0 G / 1 S / 5 B) - The central trade organization gives rise to supply shortage.
Bronze from me.
DISPLEASE
BRONZE - esme - 7 points (2 G / 0 S / 1 B) - Aggravate sickness swallowing a homeopathic pill.
Didn't like the pill > pl transformation.
EXPLOIT
11th - esme - 0 points (0 G / 0 S / 0 B) - Investigating city-center without initial orientation is an achievement.
Didn't understand it on first reading...and cannot understand it now without rechecking the wordplay breakdown. Just too complicated for me.
IMPROMPTU
6th - esme - 6 points (0 G / 2 S / 2 B) - Improvised PR partially surpasses the modelled optimum.
Silver from me.
NASCENT
10th - esme - 2 points (0 G / 0 S / 2 B) - Budding narcissi left a perfume.
There were better clues...and it took me a while to realise that narcissi meant N.
NIGHT
8th - esme - 3 points (0 G / 1 S / 1 B) - The dark time's noble fighter beheaded.
Better clues were presented and the surface reading wasn't quite right but I can't explain how.
NIKE
5th - esme - 5 points (0 G / 1 S / 3 B) - The goddess of victory leads nonbelievers into final bleak debacle.
Too complex with 2 initial letters and 2 final letters.
REALM
SILVER - esme - 15 points (2 G / 4 S / 1 B) - They're almost inside the kingdom.
Bronze from me.
SHOT
12th - esme - 1 point (0 G / 0 S / 1 B) - Every seventh flying saucer chancing on a US city is damaged by gunfire.
I see how it works but too wordy and maybe even too quirky for me.
TRANSPOSITION
6th - esme - 5 points (0 G / 2 S / 1 B) - A conversion moving around initial pitch of symphony!
Again the "Shifting Pitch Of" (SPO) completely confused me... |
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Suspence
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:02 pm Post subject: 167 |
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| Vagrant wrote: |
| I'm working on a list of words now but I'm thinking 5 or 6 words instead of 10 so it's less onerous to mod/participate/vote. Does that seem like a good idea to anyone else? |
I think 5 words would work well. Not only is it less onerous, but we'd probably end up with better quality overall.
_________________
I hate people who try to write interesting things in their signature. |
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Suspence
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: 168 |
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| novice wrote: |
On that note, I'm disappointed that so few voted for my
"Offside trap suits Pique."
By the way, would this have been an acceptable version? It improves the surface reading.
"Offside trap suits Piqué." |
I liked this clue. Not sure, but I'd imagine if there are people here who don't see "Jordan" and think Michael, then there are more than a few who read "Pique" and didn't think Gerard (especially any Americans other than me)
_________________
I hate people who try to write interesting things in their signature. |
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esme*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:12 pm Post subject: 169 |
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| Suspence wrote: |
| novice wrote: |
On that note, I'm disappointed that so few voted for my
"Offside trap suits Pique."
By the way, would this have been an acceptable version? It improves the surface reading.
"Offside trap suits Piqué." |
I liked this clue. Not sure, but I'd imagine if there are people here who don't see "Jordan" and think Michael, then there are more than a few who read "Pique" and didn't think Gerard (especially any Americans other than me) |
I still don't understand the clue. |
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Suspence
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: 170 |
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Not sure which part.
The "offside trap" is a defensive tactic used in football (soccer). Gerard Pique is a fairly well-known defender for Barcelona and the Spanish national team. The surface reading is very cool, but only if you know both of these two things.
Off = anagram indicator
side = anagram fodder > DISE
trap = container indicator
suits = PLEAS, as in legal suits/pleas
DIS(PLEAS)E
Pique = definition (annoy, irritate, displease)
_________________
I hate people who try to write interesting things in their signature. |
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esme
^^^^-- is female! Get the pronouns right
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:15 pm Post subject: 171 |
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| Suspence wrote: |
Not sure which part.
The "offside trap" is a defensive tactic used in football (soccer). Gerard Pique is a fairly well-known defender for Barcelona and the Spanish national team. The surface reading is very cool, but only if you know both of these two things.
Off = anagram indicator
side = anagram fodder > DISE
trap = container indicator
suits = PLEAS, as in legal suits/pleas
DIS(PLEAS)E
Pique = definition (annoy, irritate, displease) |
Ah, ok, I actually *do* know by accident what an offside trap is, but I have never seen the English word. I do avoid pink and orange in trivial pursuit like the plague ... |
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DejMar
(Possibly a robot)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:25 am Post subject: 172 |
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novice,
One of the problems with the clue "Offside trap suits Pique." is that suits are not pleas, nor pleas suits. A plea is an answer to why a suit should be dismissed and not the suit itself.
Another problem is in the use of 'trap' as a container indicator. A trap can be considered a container, yet syntactically, if not used as a noun, it should be presented as either an adjective or verb. As a verb it should be in one of the proper forms -- "to trap", "will trap", "traps", "trapping", "trapped", etc. -- and not simply "trap". Trying to make the clue both grammatically and syntactically correct is the challenge to which your clue failed. Surprisingly, votes were apparantly cast for others' clues that should have been dismissed for the same reason. |
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novice
No harm. Pun intended!
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:01 am Post subject: 173 |
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I think "suits" is a fine synonym for "pleas", and "ambulance chaser" is fine for "suer". For laymen, at least.
As for trap, that is the imperative of to trap. OTOH, a more general principle that I can subscribe to is that it should be possible to read the wordplay as a grammatically correct "instruction/description". So in this case that either requires a different verb form - "off side traps suits", "off side trapping suits" - or it requires reading "off" as a verb. "Off side! Trap suits!".
So I guess a better clue would have been "Offside trapping suits Pique". |
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Suspence
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:39 am Post subject: 174 |
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Main Entry: plea
Definition: begging request
Synonyms: appeal, application, entreaty, imploration, imprecation, intercession, orison, overture, petition, prayer, round robin, solicitation, suit, supplication
I do like "offside trapping" better for the wordplay, but I don't think I've ever heard it used that way in the soccer sense, which damages the surface reading.
_________________
I hate people who try to write interesting things in their signature. |
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