Heroes and Villains mafia - The town claim victory

[Zag]

With a deadline looming, I certainly don't want to be lynched.

vote Jedo

[Jedo the Jedi]

If the town lynches me over Zag, then I don't think this town has a prayer. Look at the marks against him.

1) He goes along with what many believe is a shady reason to suspect me.
2) He says my reluctance to vote him is feigned because there was "nothing new" to have caused my mind to change (when there was).
3) In post 88, I show how Zag tries to delineate how he plays as scum and how he plays as town to cause us to believe he is town this time.
4) He paints my vote as OMGUS when it is clearly based on substance I see in his posts.
5) He unvotes me to appease Monk.
6) He votes me to save his ass rather than because I look strongly scummy.

With the low number of town, we are looking at probably 2/5 split tomorrow if we don't hit scum today, followed by 2/3 if we fail again--a lynch or lose situation. It's a little more important to vote for scum on Day 1 than it is in other games. I really think Zag has a strong likelihood of being scum. Vote him.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Zag]

Well, you've risen in scumminess with that post. I've seen you as town, and you are more fair-minded in that case. So, while I totally admit that my vote was to save my own butt (though it was still for the person I found most scummy), I now feel better about it.

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Sentran]

[Undercover Monk]

[Sentran]

[Jedo the Jedi]

As Sentran pointed out, Monk, I believe Zag is saying my post does not match what he has seen me do as town. The problem is he doesn't really explain how that is. It's just another assertion he throws out there without providing the evidence which points to this reality. I think that is a pretty decent reason to jump Zag up anyone's scum-o-meter.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Zag]

[Garou_Kinfolk]

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Undercover Monk]

I apologize Zag once again the way I read the words of a poster has caused me to look foolish which does not help jedo who I am forced to defend when I could be scum hunting.

But even so Zag continues to post scummy post after scummy post take a look at this gem.

[Sentran]

I had not noticed Zag's propensity for being a follower this game, which is out of character for him. He does a good job of spinning reasons to vote people, but is never the first vote on someone. You know, almost like he's trying to let other people get the attention for leading lynches...
Alright, now I'm convinced.
Unvote, Vote: Zag
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Zag]

OK. Don't listen to lies in order to vote for me.

The first vote was RVS. It didn't mean anything.

In the second vote, you'll recall that I didn't even think anything of Garou's comment until you, Sentran, said that it wasn't something to bother with. It wasn't until then that I actually thought about it, and I realized that I thought it actually was something that I (STILL) think would be more likely for a scum Jedo than a town Jedo to say. Garou quickly backed off the comment, but I continued to think it was right, and I stood, alone, defending it. I still think so. I've never claimed 100% surety -- anyone who does on Day 1 is a fool. (Yeah, I'm looking at you.) But I thought it was a mild indicator, and the best we had so far. I was all alone on this opinion for a very long time.

All UMonk has ever had against me is that he does not agree that it is a mild indicator, and doesn't like that I voted for something he felt was nothing. Frankly, I think Sentran's case against TGC is nothing, but I don't think Sentran is scummy for thinking it is. It's just a difference of opinion. However, Sentran, your reluctantly being convinced to vote for me is typical scum behavior. Nothing has actually changed since your vote for Jedo, other than UM blowing a whole lot more smoke. Jedo even acknowledged that his reaction this game is different from the last one. He has a different reason for it, which may actually be the case, but you can't say that my picking up on a true difference is scummy.

I am John McClane, from Die Hard. My role is "Jack of all Trades" and I have three different abilities, one shot each. For each of those abilities, I choose one of two actions, and I can only use one of those abilities per day/night. One of the actions, which I had planned to use tonight, is a cop ability.

I now suspect Sentran and Jedo, mostly. Go ahead an lynch me. When I flip town, first, UMonk can eat shit. Second, lynch Sentran.

[Zag]

[Jedo the Jedi]

Why did you claim? Before Sentran's change, I was at L-2; then you became L-2 three days from deadline. There was no pressure, and most of the people hadn't even weighed in yet.


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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Zag]

[Zag]

[The Great Crep'er]

[Undercover Monk]

[raekuul]

My instinct is to vote for Zag.

But I won't vote for him yet. If I vote for him now, I'd be voting for him on nothing more than a hunch. What I need to do is to go against what I've been suggesting and analyze the thread.

In the meantime, unvote.

[raekuul]

Reading through the thread, I've noticed that Zag is primarily aggressive, while Undercover Monk and Jedo are primarily reactive so far - and the person they've had the most interaction with is Zag. Of those three, I am reasonably confident that at least one of them is mafia. As I stated in my previous post, my instinct is to vote for Zag.

Vote: Zag

I'm going to keep a closer eye on UM and Jedo, regardless of how things turn out.

[Zag]

The question is why do you equate aggression -- especially on the first day -- with being scum? Look back on all the games you've seen, are the scum generally the aggressors? No. This is why I haven't accused UMonk, even though I think he's being foolishly aggressive.

In any case, I tried very hard not to be aggressive, and I managed to resist until I felt cornered.

[jadesmar]

Garou_T being ultra anti-lurk is giving me a feeling of redirection and trying to lead the town away from.. who.. Zag? I'll need to check.

I do remember Mackay, in the Survivor game saying something like
"town, scum, we all need to get together on this" and you could tell that she was kind of targetting he own scum with that message and that's what I don't like about Jedo's post where he's audience shifts from Zag to ...?

Those are my readings right now.

The Undercover Monk, Zag thing I have no reading on. But, I'm willing to put the hammer down so that we can actually gain some information.

Vote: Zag

If Zag is scum, I think Garou might be too.

[Zag]

I think that's it.

Now that you'll learn I was telling the truth, remember what I said.

[3iff]

HOLD OFF POSTING HERE FOR A WHILE

I have a mod decision to make. Say nothing until I've made a decision.

[3iff]

I've made a decision. This is STRICTLY on timeline considerations only.

TGC PMed me an instruction Clearvotes: Zag when Zag was at 4 votes. The 5th vote for Zag was posted later.

I determine that the PMed instruction supercedes the later 5th vote and that the votes for Zag were all cleared prior to post 144 (where the 5th vote would have been cast).

I cannot say anything more now. This matter can be discussed at the end of the game. The deadline has been removed.



Day 1, 9 alive, 5 to lynch
Deadline: none set
Current Vote Count (to post 146)

[raekuul]

Well, that's interesting.

Zag: I said one of the three of you are scum. You have the most dings against you, particularly because of how aggressive you are when there is little to no reason for you to be aggressive at this point in the game.

TGC: That's an interesting power you have there. I'm guessing it's a one-shot power?

[Jedo the Jedi]

jadesmar, at least do me the courtesy of reading my responses to you. I told you I was addressing everybody else. That's generally who I have to convince in order for somebody to be lynched. If I had pressed enter after those first two sentences and made a new paragraph, you wouldn't even be talking about that.

TGC, either you tell us that you also have a cop result on Zag saying he is innocent, or my vote goes right back. You clearing those votes doesn't change anything, and it really doesn't even confirm your alignment.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[jadesmar]

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Undercover Monk]

Wow can not believe a power got used on day 1. I sincerely hope that that was not a 1 shot unless TGC is mafia. Either way it was a rash decision. I won't be asking for a claim from TGC and will ignore any he gives much in the way Im ignoring Zag's McClane claim. In a game this small with a theme this broad claims are worthless and doubly so on day 1.

Lets see if we can re-vote Zag. Vote: Zag
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The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Sentran]

Well, that was an interesting and anticlimactic effort. Zag's attention immediately turned to me after I voted him, even though the reasons UM gave were sound.
Fact: Zag has followed votes all day, while giving different reasonings for each.
Fact: Zag voted for someone else just to avoid being lynched, not because he got a strong scum read from that person.
Fact: Zag claimed when the number of votes he had caught up to Jedo's (not surpassed them).

I'm not going to immediately revote Zag, although he's still at the top of my list. I want to see more discussion on this turn of events. Also now added to my FOS list are TGC and jadesmar.
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Zag]

Wow! A reprieve. Thanks, TGC. Jumping in when the sharks are circling might just get you bit, as well. I see that UMonk didn't learn. Or maybe he is scum after all, and my read is wrong. I can't believe that it didn't at least give him pause. I guess he's going to imagine that it was set up, and that my "bah" post was fiction. He thinks I'm more clever than I am (and that you're dumber than you are because it would be idiotic for two scum to out themselves this way), so I guess I should take it as a compliment (but not you, of course).

In any case, TGC, you're completely cleared in my eyes, and, I hope, the rest of the town after I get night-killed tonight. (Hmmm. I might only get role-blocked, which would really throw a wrench in it. If I do wake up tomorrow, and don't have an investigation result, you know what they'll say.) Perhaps you didn't know that the mod would reveal who it is that cleared the votes, but I think he did you a favor by doing it. Once people see my alignment, they'll know that there is no way you are scum. I guess that means that the scum has to kill you before me, since they can still claim that you were simply mistaken, whereas there's no way that, once I flip town, you'll be anything other than cleared.

If anyone has a doc ability, please protect TGC tonight. One of my abilities I can choose from is a one-shot doc ability, but using that would mean I can't investigate tonight. Plus, the scum is going to role-block me, anyway, and kill TGC. But maybe I'll try it anyway, in case they don't have a role-blocker. (Edit: I'm going to give it 40% to take that action, and maybe someone else will do it, so now you can't safely target him.) Plus I'm hoping that this whole bunch of speculation will make them think twice about killing TGC.

UMonk, seriously, stop the rabid attack and just think for a minute. You're reminding me of Ken Starr investigating Whitewater. If you really think you have evidence of me being scum, you've deluded yourself. I apologize for being insulting, earlier, I really have no excuse for that.

[Zag]

[Zag]

[Sentran]

Zag, I find it fascinating that my minor agreement with the person that is screaming for your blood makes me appear scummier than him, but whatever. Perhaps we are mincing words here, but however you paint it, you have not been the initial vote on anyone all day. That's an undeniable fact, and the tipping point in my opinion of you. If you noticed, prior to this revelation by UM I was even defending Zag's misconstrued words.
Zag, you claim that your only serious votes have been for Jedo. Let's analyze that. Jedo, although he was allowed to opt in for another player, has been killed on day 1 or night 1 in several games. Not because he's scum, but because he's a good town player. By your own admission you are a better scum player than town player. I'm starting to think that you're looking for any excuse to vote for Jedo to get rid of him. I believe you removed your first vote for Jedo to try to appease UM. That is far more suspicious than I gave credit to at the time. Why did you feel the need to try to make another player happy? Seems like a scum play to me.
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Sentran]

Sorry for the double post, but I have a few thoughts/questions I wanted to get down before I forget.
1. Zag is trying to direct the town doc, which is usually a scum play.
2. TGC, were you aware that clearing the votes would be revealed in the game thread?
3. jadesmar, while I appreciate the quest for information, did you really have no better reason to hammer Zag?
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Zag]

Some reasonable questions. I'll suspend my suspicion on you for the moment and answer them seriously.

vote: jadesmar

There you go, the first vote on someone.

I'll agree that the second vote on someone, especially the first day, is usually more suspicious than the first. All I can say is that I've voted my belief all along, and that happened to be that I was convinced Garou had something, even when he didn't think so. Would I have made the same vote if I were scum and knew Jedo to be town? Very possibly. I never claimed that it wasn't something that could appear suspicious, which is part of the reason that I haven't been quiet as suspicious of UM as most people would be. Unfortunately, as townies, you have to vote, and that might appear suspicious.

I don't think Jedo is as good a town player as he thinks he is, or even as good as I am. In the last two games in which I wasn't mafia, I made dead right reads on Quailman and Mackay. Jedo, meanwhile, in the Dead Thread wrote that there is an "infinitismally small chance she [Mackay] is scum," when I was even more convinced than ever. In fact, at the point he wrote that, I was confused that there was anyone who couldn't see it.

I will say that my skill as a town player doesn't kick in until we know for sure at least one scum. Then I go back and review all the comments people make about him and all the comments he's made. Until then, I don't find any interaction evidence terribly compelling, as I've said all along. It's part of why I think that UMonk is being foolish for being "so sure" about me. There just fundamentally isn't enough information, on day 1, to be that sure about anybody. Of course, I have the added advantage in knowing for sure that he's wrong, whereas the rest of you have to wonder.

Jedo, on the other hand, is a very good scum player, much better than I am at manipulating the voting. In the Game of Thrones game (the one in which I backed MNO's story early, but we were both scum), Jedo had basically manipulated the voting into a win for us, we were voting off one townie and another townie was totally set up to take the heat for it. It was a masterwork. Then MNO switched his vote and screwed it up, because he didn't understand the tiebreaker rules. If not for that mistake, we would have coasted to a victory.

My only skill as a scum is basically to appear innocent. I use a slightly self-deprecating style and generally bring up mild evidence against myself so no one else can do it. I don't manipulate very well, and tend to get caught when I do. That's why I only stick to genuine evidence against people, and I try to avoid stuff that might be controversial. That's why I think it's so bizarre that I've been accused for the reason I have been. It's something I NEVER would have even discussed if I were scum.

My comment about being a better scum player than a town player is old, and pre-dates my perfect read on Mackay. I now am much more confident in my townie skills. In any case, if you are willing to accept that I'm a good scum player, if I'm scum this game then I certainly didn't show it. In reality, I am much less concerned with being found suspicious when I'm town than when I'm scum. I'll probably change that, somewhat, in the future, just because I was pretty unhappy when I thought I was being lynched on the first day.

As I said when I unvoted Jedo the first time, I was only superficially doing it to appease UM. (I even said when I was doing it that it wouldn't work.) I was doing it primarily to stop the conversation around it, because I thought that all productive conversation was long since over. I was hoping we'd move on to a new topic, and I hoped that "appeasing UM" would let it die down and we could discuss something else. Of course, I did want to save my own butt, but at least as much I really did want to have a different discussion that could be used for fodder in the future.

==============

Post preview edit:

I'm only a little bit trying to direct the town doc. At least as much I'm trying to make the scum have to think twice before killing TGC. As I said, I might choose to protect him myself. In any case, even if I were trying to instruct the doc, it is justified because (in my eyes) TGC is 100% cleared. There is zero chance that a scum TGC would have done what he did. I do understand that, until you know that I'm town, you don't have this perspective. But assume for a minute that you know I am -- you would also know that TGC is 100% cleared.

[The Great Crep'er]

To answer a few quick questions:
-No, I had no idea that my action would feature my name in the thread.
-To save you the trouble: No, as per my role power, you cannot revote Zag today.