|
|
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
|
 Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:57 am Post subject: 201 |
 |
|
| Zag wrote: |
| Sentran wrote: |
| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| Second, he used his power to go against the will of the town. How likely is that to be a town power? How much good will that power do in the long run? It just seems to me to be anti-town if not actually scummy. |
I see it as arrogant, rather than scummy. Still, it does merit consideration. I'll be pondering over it overnight. |
It's a terrible idea. Once you see that I flip town, you'll know that TGC is cleared. |
I've already refuted this. Next, please?
_________________
Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Zag
Tired of his old title
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:06 pm Post subject: 202 |
|
|
| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| Zag wrote: |
| Sentran wrote: |
| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| Second, he used his power to go against the will of the town. How likely is that to be a town power? How much good will that power do in the long run? It just seems to me to be anti-town if not actually scummy. |
I see it as arrogant, rather than scummy. Still, it does merit consideration. I'll be pondering over it overnight. |
It's a terrible idea. Once you see that I flip town, you'll know that TGC is cleared. |
I've already refuted this. Next, please? |
Perhaps you disagreed with it (demonstrating worse judgement than I thought you had), but I must have missed it. Would you mind repeating your refutation.
Glancing back, I see you suggested something about this being a gambit where we are both scum. I don't deny that it could be, if I were scum (but I'm not). However, my premise is that once it is generally known that Zag is town (that is, assuming that fact for now), then TGC must also be town. It would just be stupid for a scum to waste such an ability on a townie. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sentran
Ray of Sucking Funshine
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:18 pm Post subject: 203 |
|
|
| Zag wrote: |
| It would just be stupid for a scum to waste such an ability on a townie. |
Again, I disagree. It is a dangerous gambit, but a potentially brilliant play (if it works).
_________________
Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zag
Tired of his old title
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:08 pm Post subject: 204 |
|
|
You can say that about any insane ploy: It would be brilliant if it works. How often do people really try those insane ploys? Not very often, because they don't usually work.
As you've already shown, it's unlikely that this one would work. Rather than being paranoid, put yourself in the position of mafia with that ability. Are you really going to use it in that situation? .. on a dangerous townie, one who has already claimed an investigative power, who is clearly going down? The short-term loss is way too great, and the possible long-term gain is too small and too unlikely. Would YOU make that choice?
And if that were the case, don't you think that at least one of the other scum would have supported the position right now? They would at least have said, "Well, I don't believe Zag is town, but if he is, I'll grant that it clears TGC." This hasn't been said, so there are only two possible reasons: either I am scum, or TGC isn't (or both). Well, I know that I am not. When you learn that I'm telling the truth, you should come to this same conclusion.
============================
You'll recall that last game TGC took an odd action that some tried to argue was a scum ploy. (I don't recall if all those trying to make that argument were themselves scum or not.) My response was that if he was bold/clever/insane enough to do that as a scum ploy, he deserves to win. The same reasoning applies here. It is so unlikely that someone would do that as a scum ploy, you might as well discard the possibility and say that if he really tried it, he deserves to win with it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zag
Tired of his old title
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: 205 |
|
|
I am forced to throw in a poker analogy, which makes me sad that MNO isn't playing.
Say you're down to the final two people in a big poker tournament. The two of you have about the same amount of money, and you pick up 8s 8c, make a small raise, and the opponent just calls.
The flop is 2d 3c 7s. He checks, you bet, he calls.
The turn is Kh. He checks, you bet, he calls.
The river is 8h and the opponent pushes all in. You could fold here and still have enough chips possibly to recover, but you'd be at a 5-to-1 disadvantage.
The only hand that beats you is KK. This would mean that he never bet his cowboys until the end. Not preflop, not on the flop with his overpair, and not on the turn with his set. But he MIGHT have them. However, you have to decide that if he really played kings this way, by God he DESERVES to win this tournament right now, and you push your chips in. (Anyone who would make any other choice never got this far in a big tournament, anyway.)
By the way, the hand I would put him on is 7d 8d. Or a total bluff. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sentran
Ray of Sucking Funshine
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:43 pm Post subject: 206 |
|
|
Nice analogy Zag, and I'm glad I play enough to follow it. However, during the Survivor Mafia game I had the opportunity to do almost exactly what you suggest, in terms of an insane play. I had 3 idols to begin the game, and I was told that the person receiving the idol would be told who it came from. I almost used this immediately to save a townie day 1, hoping it would help to clear me. The townie in question was Jedo, and I would rather he was killed off when I was scum. The Mafia team discussed strategy that night, and I let them convince me not to use them on townies, when they would better serve the Mafia. I'm still not entirely certain that it was the right call, hence my hesitation to believe TGC as town now.
In a game this size that would be an extremely powerful ability to give the scum, but on the flip side using such (as in a scum saving another scum), it would likely reveal the enitre scum team. In deference to logic, I have to conclude that TGC is LIKELY town. Still not 100%, but much more likely than not.
_________________
Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MNOWAX
0.999... of a Troll
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:49 pm Post subject: 207 |
|
|
| Zag wrote: |
I am forced to throw in a poker analogy, which makes me sad that MNO isn't playing.
Say you're down to the final two people in a big poker tournament. The two of you have about the same amount of money, and you pick up 8s 8c, make a small raise, and the opponent just calls.
The flop is 2d 3c 7s. He checks, you bet, he calls.
The turn is Kh. He checks, you bet, he calls.
The river is 8h and the opponent pushes all in. You could fold here and still have enough chips possibly to recover, but you'd be at a 5-to-1 disadvantage.
The only hand that beats you is KK. This would mean that he never bet his cowboys until the end. Not preflop, not on the flop with his overpair, and not on the turn with his set. But he MIGHT have them. However, you have to decide that if he really played kings this way, by God he DESERVES to win this tournament right now, and you push your chips in. (Anyone who would make any other choice never got this far in a big tournament, anyway.)
By the way, the hand I would put him on is 7d 8d. Or a total bluff. |
I have come to hijack the game to say.....Depending on how he plays, he may think his A7 could be good there as well ( an idiot for sure but heads up you never know... and good for you for looking for spoiler text.
BOOOOOO
[/hijack]
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Great Crep'er
2% Spambot
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject: 208 |
|
|
| Undercover Monk wrote: |
| Dang it TGC all you did in saving Zag was prevent us from getting valuable information. I was going to post the promised list of pros and cons but looking back just made me doubt myself. |
And what in god's name is wrong in doubting yourself? The start of the game is bound to be dealing with all sorts of uncertain issues and weighing people more carefully than we would over a polarized image of a player over a few more game days. The only reason I did what I did was because people were basically determining that because of this nature of the game where Zag and Garou (initially, I'm still not sure if I 100% buy the "test" thing) and myself were pushed to weigh the potential dual nature of a post that it was inherently anti-town and the wrong thing to do. We get information from whoever we lynch, whoever we vote, whoever we question. That's the point of a lynch. It is not all lost by taking Zag off the table.
| Quote: |
| I'm not voting jadesmar out of respect to him always getting killed day/night 1. |
Good golly, Ms. Molly. You cannot be serious. You and Jedo jump on Zag for taking emotions into account when placing a vote (i.e. unvoting to appease your POV) and then you go and post BS like this, or that voting me would mainly be due to OMGUS. So we definitely differ on this issue. I think the smart thing to do, would be to lynch jadesmar when he is scummy and/or the most beneficial lynch, no matter what the circumstances are. No matter if he's been lynched D1 for a 100 games or so. I'll ask you what I asked Zag with a rephrasing - what are jadesmar's feelings doing in your determination of who to vote?
I am still not sold on Jedo's post being a joke without at least the possibility of a subtext, and people are writing it off completely. For you, at one point, a damn smiley was the clincher. For the folks at home, rephrase your convictions as to why it is all the way a joke post. I don't think you can do it without coming off as a hypocrite. You pick on Zag for making sweeping generalities on what the mafia do and I don't think you can clear Jedo of this post without doing the same.
@Jedo: Just on the initial aspect of that post 197, I disagree with it. How much good was going to come from using the power in a situation other than the type I used it in? (a.k.a. Against a majority or a tie faction that is in a more desirable status) That is the only way it would have been effective for my power - to overturn a rushing wagon when I think the town is about to shoot themselves in the foot. Just because you go against the majority does not mean you are scummy and that is what this post is trying to suggest, which I think is BS.
Reminds me a lot of Plato's Republic, where someone said something to the effect of "Justice is in the hands of the greater power" at a time when these people were putting Socrates (a great thinker) at edge.
And I figure, either way, it's probably best for me to protect Zag. If he is town, telling the truth, his power at least has the potential to do good for town tonight. If he flipped scum, there'd be no doubt in my mind I'd be next. Now there's no way you can lynch me justly without basing it on my own posts. If you decide to lynch me due to my saving Zag without knowing for sure what Zag's role is, that will be your uneven decision. For all you all know, Zag could be telling the truth, and the fact that this doesn't seem to enter Jedo's mind when phrasing this argument has only further cemented my vote.
_________________
Potato. Belgium. Eight. Random Lynch # Mafia awaits. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zag
Tired of his old title
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:20 pm Post subject: 209 |
|
|
TGC, I hadn't noticed the original of your second quote there. When you quoted it without a reference, I didn't realize that you were just extending your earlier quote. My first thought was, that has to be a scum saying that. Damn, who said it? I see now that you were just continuing, that it was UMonk. Maybe my earlier read on him being town, on the theory that scum don't stick themselves out there so aggressively on day 1, was wrong.
In any case, that new read depends on jadesmar being scum for his hammer. That's still my vote. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Garou_Kinfolk
Daedalian Member
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:42 pm Post subject: 210 |
|
|
The current subject of Jadesmar not being lynched because he doesn't get past day/night 1 was giving me a bout of dejavu (yes I know I butchered the spelling. My phone doesn't auto-fill in French). I looked back and a similar conversation had taken place in Survivor Mafia. It was there that I was the one who said they weren't going to vote for him just so he could get past day 1. I believe it was Mackay who then jumped all over me for saying it. It was around post 200 that it started if anyone wants to look back at it. In that game, I was town and Mackay was scum.
_________________
Most posts made from my phone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sentran
Ray of Sucking Funshine
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:45 pm Post subject: 211 |
|
|
If my vote was not an indicator, I'm up for a jadesmar lynch. My only concern with it is that as a relatively quiet player this game, he will not provide as much information as lynching more verbose targets (yes, such as myself). I just don't trust his quick and flippant hammer vote.
_________________
Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:45 am Post subject: 212 |
|
|
First, my assessment of TGC: Minus the propagation of misinformation and bad interpretation, his posts actually read as quite townish. I can therefore only chalk up the things I've corrected as just poor play. I'm still going to keep an eye out though.
To answer TGC's question about when else he should have used the power: You should use it when it's actually going to be the town shooting themselves in the foot. (Maybe when its Lylo and you feel the scum have a lead on a town lynch?) This is Day 1, most people (even some of those who hadn't voted) thought Zag was scummy, and even if he flipped town, his death would have produced lots of interaction information. Now we are robbed of that opportunity, and much of the town is turning to a barely scummy jadesmar. (I'm never much convinced by "they hammered" arguments.)
Also, I wasn't suggesting you were scummy because you went against the majority. Usually, it would be foolish of scum to do that. What I did want to propose was actually considering the possibility of you being scum. With Zag spouting mindlessly that you are 100% clear, I felt it was important to encourage people actually to look objectively at your potential alignment. I think some have, and even though the result is just "he feels town," I'm happy.
| Zag wrote: |
| Glancing back, I see you suggested something about this being a gambit where we are both scum...It would just be stupid for a scum to waste such an ability on a townie. |
As has been pointed out, the very scenario I was suggesting was TGC scum/Zag town. It's a great alibi for the scum person. I know you've since presented what you think is a refutation, but the fact that you refuse (or at least appear to refuse) to acknowledge that scum have to play somewhat differently in this smaller setting tells me you aren't thinking about it well.
| The Great Crep'er wrote: |
| And I figure, either way, it's probably best for me to protect Zag. If he is town, telling the truth, his power at least has the potential to do good for town tonight. If he flipped scum, there'd be no doubt in my mind I'd be next. |
This is circular reasoning. It can't be best for you to protect Zag because "if he flipped scum you would be next." In fact, if you hadn't protected Zag with your power, we wouldn't even be considering you. Try better next time.
And again, I have to bring up your hang-up on powers and their usages. A good game is designed to be balanced even with the loss of a townie on Day 1--probably considering the loss of a townie Day 1! So we might have lost this JoAT. There are probably six other town powers out there, presumably including your own! If this is your stance, you should be promoting "No Lynch" straight out of the gate; but I think you know how detrimental that would be.
So, to conclude that post, the fact that you can't accurately evaluate my arguments only further tells me that nobody should be listening to you. Your posturing about the certainty of my scumminess is based on air. Have fun with it.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
3iff
very unbifflike
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:00 am Post subject: 213 |
|
|
| With immediate effect - Amb is replacing Perpentach. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raekuul
Lives under a bridge & tells stories.
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:39 am Post subject: 214 |
|
|
| Amb, your thoughts? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Undercover Monk
Professor Chaos
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:14 pm Post subject: 215 |
|
|
Thank God Vote: Amb Welcome back old chum 
(Now watch as Zag and TGC attack me for having a vendetta against Amb because in their world no one ever makes a joke post.)
Anywho I am very interested in what Amb has to say on a few of the topics of the day.
1. Is he suspicious of Jedo's opening post?
2. Does he think TGC was right to save Zag?
3. What's the best move from here? More scumhunting, a lurker lynch, no lynch?
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Undercover Monk
Professor Chaos
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject: 216 |
|
|
TGC I think I can actively refute about 90% of your post against me and jedo and I think jedo already did a decent job. I will try to address your points in order
1. You are right there is nothing wrong with doubting yourself. But its never a good feeling. I would ask if you have ever considerd doubting YOURSELF and that Zag COULD be scum.
2. What evidence do you have against jadesmar? A hammer? If you have evidence bring it forward. If he is scummy or the best lynch I will happily vote him. However being a quiet player we wont get much info one way or the other. And I dont think a day 1 hammer is that scumm. (more on that later.)
3. You must not read my posts I said emotion SHOULD not be part of votes BUT being human it is impossible not to let emotion become a factor. (Me and Zag have both made apologies to each other when we feel we have crossed a line) Its not jadesmars feelings Im considering its mine. I feel guilty that he is unable to enjoy the game cause we keep killing him off thats how you loose players. So yeah Im not gonna vote UNLESS you have evidence against him.
4. I have answered this many times. IT was jedos first post of the game and he refrenced a conversation we had in the dead thread from last game. If we are not allowed to even post a friendly hello without it coming under fire (see my Amb Vote above) then Im gonna have to stop playing it sucks all the joy from it. In fact your refusing to acknowledge that It COULD be a joke and thats it is just as aggredious.
5. Jedo covered this pretty well but let me add my two cents in. Yes to use your power effectively you must go against the majority. BUT you claim its a one-shot (If you are lying about this I will not stop til you are lynched. Dont try a lie about your power so the mafia doesnt kill you thing this game I wont stand for it.) If it is one-shot you just wasted a pretty great check on a quick rush. We had discussed this topic at length and came to a consensus but because you disagreed with the decision you said f@#$ the town and saved Zag. How can you be certain that Zag isn't scum? Its day 1 so barring masonship you can't. You prevented what (regardless of allignment) what was probably one of the two best lynches. (the other being me) That is whats messed up you wasted a potentially powerful ability on a difference of opinion. Even if Zag flips town it wouldnt have been the end of the world a dead townie who posted alot is just as helpful as a dead scum.
6. This is the problem with both you and Zag. You overestimate your value to the town. You did it last game as well and it almost cost the town the game. The idea that your survival is more important than a town win is something that must end with this game. Its why me and jedo yell and scream about not claiming on day 1. Its also why I didnt change my vote once Zag claimed. I will vote a claimed cop on day 1. Zag voted jedo not because he was sure about jedo but because he didnt want to die. Now you are using reasoning that if Zag flipped scum you would be next to justify saving him.THAT IS THE SCUMMIEST THING IVE HEARD THIS GAME. Even if his scum lynch led to yours isnt that an acceptable loss one scum for one townie. You basically just said that you dont want Zag to turn scum cause it means we would lynch you. Selfish play to the extreme.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
3iff
very unbifflike
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: 217 |
|
|
A vote-count prior to the weekend. The deadline can be extended if there's a demand.
| Code: |
Day 1, 9 alive, 5 to lynch
Deadline: SOFT for Thursday 27th September
Current Vote Count (to post 216)
(2) jadesmar: Zag, Sentran
(1) Jedo the Jedi: The Great Crep'er
(1) Amb: Undercover Monk
Not Voting: Garou_Kinfolk, Amb, jadesmar, Raekuul, Jedo the Jedi
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zag
Tired of his old title
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:28 pm Post subject: 218 |
|
|
| Undercover Monk wrote: |
| I dont think a day 1 hammer is that scumm. (more on that later.) |
I agree. However, a day 1 hammer that closely follows the L-1 vote (thereby not giving time for an unvote to anyone who was just looking to put some pressure on without actually lynching) IS totally scummy. I think that it is mostly true when the person being lynched is town, but it is also somewhat true when the lynchee is scum. That is, someone who doesn't know the alignment of the lynchee shouldn't be doing it, anyway, so a quick final vote is still more likely to be a busing than a correct vote by a townie. (After all, if he felt strongly about it, then why hadn't he already voted.)
So either way the lynchee flips, I think a QUICK FINISH day 1 hammer is scummy. Since I know I'm town, I find it all the more scummy. Obviously, you don't think so, but you'll find out eventually that I'm telling the truth. Please do remember to revisit the source of your opinions when you learn the truth. I am honestly trying to help you improve your play with this comment. (Unless I've misread you and you do turn out to be scum, in which case I'm the one who has to do some rethinking. I'm okay with that.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zag
Tired of his old title
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:32 pm Post subject: 219 |
|
|
| I should have qualified the previous statement that I think it isn't as true when the first day has carried on already for 20-ish pages and people are just sick of it. But we aren't there, yet, not by a long shot, and we CERTAINLY weren't there when jadesmar thought he was putting the hammer down. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sentran
Ray of Sucking Funshine
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:16 pm Post subject: 220 |
|
|
| Undercover Monk wrote: |
| You must not read my posts |
*snicker*
_________________
Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: 221 |
|
|
| Zag wrote: |
| Undercover Monk wrote: |
| I dont think a day 1 hammer is that scumm. (more on that later.) |
I agree. However, a day 1 hammer that closely follows the L-1 vote (thereby not giving time for an unvote to anyone who was just looking to put some pressure on without actually lynching) IS totally scummy. I think that it is mostly true when the person being lynched is town, but it is also somewhat true when the lynchee is scum. That is, someone who doesn't know the alignment of the lynchee shouldn't be doing it, anyway, so a quick final vote is still more likely to be a busing than a correct vote by a townie. (After all, if he felt strongly about it, then why hadn't he already voted.) |
I'll get this one.
1) There were four hours between the fourth vote and the hammer, and that was clearly enough time for TGC to use his power.
2) Everybody voting you had done so out of the belief you were scummy, not out of "just looking to put some pressure." Therefore, jadesmar wasn't preventing anybody from unvoting because they weren't likely wanting to do so.
3) I can only assume you mean "someone who doesn't know the alignment of the lynchee shouldn't be doing [a quick final vote]." That's probably true, but I've already argued this doesn't look like "a quick final vote."
4) Sentran and raekuul had only recently changed their minds based on the arguments of others which had been posted on that page, so the support jadesmar may have been basing his vote on wasn't there for him to have voted earlier.
5) It's Day 1, so hammering "the most likely to be scum person even though they have a good chance of being a townie" isn't near as scummy as it might be in later days. (I would even disagree on that general sweep, but that's beyond this conversation.) The point of the Day 1 lynch is really to get information from the interactions after having a point of reference. jadesmar trying to bring that about doesn't feel very scummy to me.
I want to say, I don't really know all of jadesmar's motivation or alignment. I'm posting this response against the wholesale assumption that his hammer vote on Zag was scummy. It's really not that black-and-white.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amb
Amb the Hitched.
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:29 pm Post subject: 222 |
|
|
| As much as I'd love to give thoughts, I have to read the whole thread and see if anything jumps out. But I don't expect to find anything this early into the game. But we shall see. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amb
Amb the Hitched.
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject: 223 |
|
|
Read up to Page 2 thoughts:
FOS Zag for 2nd voting on UMonk 2 hours and 0 posts after the last vote. Doesnt appear random.
FOS UM
for making fun of Perps name while complaining about a joke about 'undercover'.
Also "Garou is mafia cause he knows things " is a joke statement often posted by scum. I'm not exactly sold on that concept.
But I like his Post number 29.
Sentrans post 31, in response, makes me laugh.
Bigger FOS Jedo for "I'm happy not to be mafia this game, so if you aren't mafia either, Monk, how do you feel about teaming up?".
This statement is very probably that of a townie trying to bait scum, but usually results in baiting townies. And also his terrible play in D1 of survivor mafia earns Extra FOS for the hades of it.
Fos Sentran:
"Present, but withholding vote. I feel the RVS is nearly pointless as well."
5 hours, and no reason later:
"Vote: Garou_Kinfolk. He's either Mason or Mafia"
SO the FOS is for inconsistency.
FOS TGC: Post 33 shows that TGC still over reads day 1.
FOS Jadesmar
"unvote: vote Perpentach
Third person on the first bandwagon."
This is a long established pattern that has been around for 10ish years. So using it to start a bandwagon, or disguise what is really a random vote in sheeps clothing, is suspect. But I just dont want to lynch Jadesmar on yet another day 1.
Fos Garou for "So I think we're pretty much out of RVS now. There seems to be enough serious votes floating around for this to be true. "
Really? Post 42? Nothing but faked reasoning, biased reasoning, and blatant randomism. I find that quote a bit hard to swallow.
Fos Raekuul so I can complete the full array of suspecting everybody. Unless there is a player I have missed.
End random thoughts of, up to page 2. COntinuing to read.
Unvote; In case Perp left me voting someone.
| Quote: |
Let me make it clear if you on your first post of a game posted IM SCUM IM SCUM IM SCUM. I would not vote for you. If Amb did that I would not vote for him
|
Damn I wish I'd read this before my first post  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Undercover Monk
Professor Chaos
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:18 pm Post subject: 224 |
|
|
| Zag wrote: |
| Undercover Monk wrote: |
| I dont think a day 1 hammer is that scumm. (more on that later.) |
I agree. However, a day 1 hammer that closely follows the L-1 vote (thereby not giving time for an unvote to anyone who was just looking to put some pressure on without actually lynching) IS totally scummy. I think that it is mostly true when the person being lynched is town, but it is also somewhat true when the lynchee is scum. |
Oh how I love catching lying scum with cold hard facts and me and jedo seem to be doing that a lot to Zag which is why most of the town was ok with lynching him.
I looked back at the last 8 games played here to see if Zag's latest sweeping generality could be backed up. (I ignored bizarro due to the game mechanic.)
Of the 8....
3 ( Game of thrones, Robo, and Pendragon) resulted in hammers by mafia members. 5 were hammers by town (1 by cult).
Of those 5...
4 were hammered less than 3 hours after being put at L-1. The other only a day and that included some last minute vote switches.
Here's the breakdown:
| Code: |
Game: L-1 voter
Hammer voter Time between |
| Code: |
Survivor: Amb (town)
MNO (neutral) about an hour
True Blood: Quail (town)
Ctorj (town) approx 1 hour 15 min
Secret Theme: Lucresia (town)
Amb (town) about 3 hours
V mafia: Ctorj (town) L-2
MNO (town) thought he hammered
Quail (town) actually hammered all within about 3 hours
Heroes: UM (town)
Zag (town) 1 day |
So yeah next time you get the urge to spout off how mafia is played and how such and such action is always a scumtell, You should do some research. Guess where my vote is going tomorrow. Anyway...so jadesmars quick hammer is not a scum tell (maybe even a town tell but at least its nul). Next piece of evidence we can debunk
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Undercover Monk
Professor Chaos
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:42 pm Post subject: 225 |
|
|
Sooo the only person Amb doesnt find suspicous is himself. I missed you buddy But yeah I wish you had seen my quote to I would have lost it. I probably wont be on much this weekend going to great wolf lodge in cincinatti and will be trying to find a radio station that broadcasts the colts game while visiting the aquarium. Now off to Red Lobster...Oh the Irony.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raekuul
Lives under a bridge & tells stories.
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: 226 |
|
|
FOS: Amb for not finding a legitimate reason to suspect me  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amb
Amb the Hitched.
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:58 pm Post subject: 227 |
|
|
| Anyway, Page 4 completely and utterly throws me out. I had some theories building on the whole Zag thing, only for him to be lynched ... but also not be lynched. I'm just mindful that Zag made a play recently whereby he was 'cleared' by a resurrector or something like that. I'll read from Page 3 onwards again later 2nite., |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Great Crep'er
2% Spambot
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:42 am Post subject: 228 |
|
|
| Undercover Monk wrote: |
1. You are right there is nothing wrong with doubting yourself. But its never a good feeling. I would ask if you have ever considerd doubting YOURSELF and that Zag COULD be scum. |
That's true, and he very well may be, I saw inconsistencies in his playstyle mainly regarding his push for Jedo. I still am happy with the decision I made, because unlike Jedo and yourself, I feel he has put more on the line and is ultimately arguing from a more pure fact stance (barring the descriptions of what he does as scum or town) whereas Jedo's seems to be "follow the tells I give you" - and what else is there to say? - I ain't Jedo, so I am always fishy of conclusions thrusted upon me that I did not reach.
| Quote: |
| 2. What evidence do you have against jadesmar? A hammer? If you have evidence bring it forward. If he is scummy or the best lynch I will happily vote him. However being a quiet player we wont get much info one way or the other. And I dont think a day 1 hammer is that scumm. (more on that later.) |
I will bar your "day 1 hammer" theory because I feel like it's largely subjective and not coming from a point that can be debated or argued with full solidarity. Last game, the cult leader was one of the final two nails in Jedo's D1 coffin.
As for your initial accusation, I can only say that I did not say jadesmar was scummy or scum, merely that if it were the case, he should be lynched, circumventing your "I won't lynch jadesmar out of respect for having to put up with two D1 lynches in the past." Which, frankly, I think is not the most tactful course of action.
| Quote: |
| 3. You must not read my posts I said emotion SHOULD not be part of votes BUT being human it is impossible not to let emotion become a factor. (Me and Zag have both made apologies to each other when we feel we have crossed a line) Its not jadesmars feelings Im considering its mine. I feel guilty that he is unable to enjoy the game cause we keep killing him off thats how you loose players. So yeah Im not gonna vote UNLESS you have evidence against him. |
Am I the only one seeing worry without any symptoms? How about asking jadesmar himself? Have you seen one post in this thread or anywhere that's complained about not making it past Day 1? Better question: What does doing a favor for someone have to do with scumhunting and voting off the scummiest player? If you don't want to vote off jadesmar because you have a town or null read on him that's fine, but if you don't want to vote him off of the D1 thing, it seems like you are more than willing to vote for reasons other than your own reads, and that just doesn't fly IMO. 
| Quote: |
| 4. I have answered this many times. IT was jedos first post of the game and he refrenced a conversation we had in the dead thread from last game. If we are not allowed to even post a friendly hello without it coming under fire (see my Amb Vote above) then Im gonna have to stop playing it sucks all the joy from it. In fact your refusing to acknowledge that It COULD be a joke and thats it is just as aggredious. |
| Quote: |
| We had discussed this topic at length and came to a consensus but because you disagreed with the decision you said f@#$ the town and saved Zag. How can you be certain that Zag isn't scum? Its day 1 so barring masonship you can't. You prevented what (regardless of allignment) what was probably one of the two best lynches. (the other being me) That is whats messed up you wasted a potentially powerful ability on a difference of opinion. Even if Zag flips town it wouldnt have been the end of the world a dead townie who posted alot is just as helpful as a dead scum. |
Despite you seeming to accept the base logic of me having to use this power in this manner you just want to argue your own opinion. In case you didn't notice by my mod-confirmed power I DIDN'T AGREE THAT A ZAG LYNCH WAS THE BEST LYNCH TO MAKE, SO YOU CANNOT CALL ME SCUM SIMPLY BECAUSE I ACTED OF MY OWN FREE WILL. That is what's fucked up.
So I will turn this around on you:
How can you be certain that Zag is scum?
If a talkative townie is just as good as a talkative scum, what's your hangup about lynching Jedo? (I know the answer to this is obvious, I am asking this so you get a feel for my shoes. Obviously, I put a priority on lynching those I find scummy over those I feel town/null about. So arguing that "it isn't that bad if he flips town" to sway me is ridiculous. And despite all the guff, I still have the money in my backpocket that says you and Jedo are not 100% definite that Zag is scum. A large percentage? Yes. All the way? No.)
| Quote: |
| 6. This is the problem with both you and Zag. You overestimate your value to the town. You did it last game as well and it almost cost the town the game. The idea that your survival is more important than a town win is something that must end with this game. |
-Point to the instance where my Survival put the town win in danger
-Please explain how this detour now prevents a town win (like you are implicating)
These type of quotes are sensationalist and are almost always moreso based on "feeling" rather than "fact". It would be easy to weigh your quotes with any kind of seriousness if they just explained what the fuck they're talking about. If I'm not mistaken, me being alive, with your role, gave the mafia their greatest setback and was a huge contributive factor to their loss.
| Quote: |
| Its why me and jedo yell and scream about not claiming on day 1. Its also why I didnt change my vote once Zag claimed. I will vote a claimed cop on day 1. Zag voted jedo not because he was sure about jedo but because he didnt want to die. Now you are using reasoning that if Zag flipped scum you would be next to justify saving him. |
So you won't vote a claimed scum, but you will vote a claimed cop...
*headdesk*
A few things....
1. It is not hard to bring focus to other non-Zag players and get more information which is important in the early stages of the game. Kapeesh?
2. UM you of all people should be giving this idea some sort of merit. You argued yourself that defenses for other players indicated some sort of scumtell on the part of the defendee.
3. Yes, in case you didn't see that it was telegraphed, my vote was partly for my own causes, but they are the town causes as well. Protecting an asset is extremely important if town is about to lose it, and if I look scummy for defending a mafia player and lose my life because of it, it puts the town one step closer to losing the game which I am fully against.
So now that you suggested yourself as one of the two best lynches, I am waiting for you to vote yourself.
_________________
Potato. Belgium. Eight. Random Lynch # Mafia awaits. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Great Crep'er
2% Spambot
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:08 am Post subject: 229 |
|
|
| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| and even if he flipped town, his death would have produced lots of interaction information. Now we are robbed of that opportunity, and much of the town is turning to a barely scummy jadesmar. (I'm never much convinced by "they hammered" arguments.) |
And I will say again, that Zag was not the only one with heavy interaction and therefore, this benefit was not just exclusive to his lynch. So I would like to see the upside in the Zag lynch that would not be gained in another lynch with other interactions. There is no oracle telling us that it has to be jadesmar today, but I feel like this stalling will help soothe the tunnel vision and allow you to be a bit more balanced in probabilities of who you are going to vote.
| Quote: |
| Also, I wasn't suggesting you were scummy because you went against the majority. |
T_T
| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| Second, he used his power to go against the will of the town. |
Using my power to go against "the will of the town"? That would seem to suggest that I am not town. I have a will, after all.
| Quote: |
| The Great Crep'er wrote: |
| And I figure, either way, it's probably best for me to protect Zag. If he is town, telling the truth, his power at least has the potential to do good for town tonight. If he flipped scum, there'd be no doubt in my mind I'd be next. |
This is circular reasoning. It can't be best for you to protect Zag because "if he flipped scum you would be next." In fact, if you hadn't protected Zag with your power, we wouldn't even be considering you. Try better next time. |
It is not circular reasoning, it is you using an arbitrary statement to try to discredit me. So since I am not interested in arguing with your jib and would prefer to use logic, I will have to poll the masses.
@Town in General: If Zag had been lynched and flipped scum, how many of you would be considering voting me the next day in relation to that incident?
| Quote: |
| And again, I have to bring up your hang-up on powers and their usages. A good game is designed to be balanced even with the loss of a townie on Day 1--probably considering the loss of a townie Day 1! So we might have lost this JoAT. There are probably six other town powers out there, presumably including your own! If this is your stance, you should be promoting "No Lynch" straight out of the gate; but I think you know how detrimental that would be. |
Few things:
1. I am going to need to know the definition of "JoAT". Google has provided me nothing.
2. We can presume all we want Jedo, I'm not giving up a potential cop report when no one else has yet to come out and when I think the lynch on Zag is based more on opinion than actual fact. (Hence your knocking down of many arguments as if they were nonsensical, when the root of this claim seems to come from just you disagreeing with them)
_________________
Potato. Belgium. Eight. Random Lynch # Mafia awaits. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zag
Tired of his old title
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:16 am Post subject: 230 |
|
|
UMonk, how many of those fall afoul of this qualifier? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't see it.
| Zag wrote: |
| I should have qualified the previous statement that I think it isn't as true when the first day has carried on already for 20-ish pages and people are just sick of it. But we aren't there, yet, not by a long shot, and we CERTAINLY weren't there when jadesmar thought he was putting the hammer down. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amb
Amb the Hitched.
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:52 am Post subject: 231 |
|
|
| UM wrote: |
And then he doesnt address what about Jedo's last post made him so sure he was scum. And besides that are you telling me that you BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION VIEWED JEDO AS TOWN BUT VOTED HIM ANYWAY JUST SO YOU STAY ALIVE.
|
This makes sense. THe town doesn't win if it keeps lynching town. So if you know you are town, you don't lie down and just die unless you absolutely believe your death will resolve important conflicts. Ie this the action of both town and scum, and can't be used as conclusively as stated by UM.
Bear in mind, that if you are town, then any other player is inherently more likely to be scum that you are.
TGC vote-clearing a claimed swiss army townie is interesting. Zags claim role is not a role I would expect in such a small game.
TGC wasting his shot on the random day 1 vote has completely failed to take into account that Zag might be lying. THis would be a very powerful ability end game. It could well be a good time for a scum to have used that ability though. Can't discard that possibility. If TGC is town, then I'm sorry to be frank - but that was a complete and utter waste of an ability. Zag's claimed ability isn't so great that we should have saved him. The logic against him wasn't the greatest. But neither was it the worst.
| JTJ wrote: |
What the hell is this? And how has nobody immediately pointed out every problem with these paragraphs?
|
Jedo: This really could go either way. I'd imagine if I was town and I got spectacularly saved like that - I'd react just like Zag. Zag has pulled gambits like this before, and recently. I don't know which way to go on it, but my gut feeling is we can come back to it tomorrow. Especially if we cannot re-lynch Zag. I admit to being very tempted to lynch TGC for his frankly awful use of a power that would have been fantastic in the end-game scenarios. Especially since the ability could be one given to a mafia goon very easily. More so because a mafiaete using that ability on day 1 would make him look clear. Regardless of what alignment Zag has. The ability could go either way for me. And because of the timing, I tend to think TGC is a scum pulling a gambit slightly more than an overzealous one-shot townie.
| JTJ wrote: |
Previously, I have dead-to-rights pegged Sentran, Amb, bgg, and Silverfire when nobody else even suspected them. In each case, I was convincing people to vote them. So, let's be a little more comprehensive in our analysis of "who catches more scum as town."
|
This of course is meaningless in any given game. Especially on day 1. And it would fail to hold true if you were scum. So it's not a helpful brag there. It's easy to just assume I am always scum, and then when I die, and I am scum, claim that you are great at catching me. And when I die, and I am town, blame me for awful play. It's only the very last game, where as a cop, you simply refused to claim day 1 and died. Better to die 1-2 days later with results, than on the first day without even trying.
| Zag wrote: |
It's a terrible idea. Once you see that I flip town, you'll know that TGC is cleared.
|
I don't think the two of you are necessarily tied. If you are the role you say you are, you have to admit that the idea of TGC trying to clear himself day 1 is actually quite possible. He might have saved you. But that really doesn't mean you should abandon all suspicion of the play. I find the kissing up to TGC, your "saviour" quite odd.
| Zag wrote: |
You can say that about any insane ploy: It would be brilliant if it works. How often do people really try those insane ploys? Not very often, because they don't usually work.
|
You tried one very recently. I don't blame people for thinking you would try it again. Either way, your scumminess and TGC's scumminess are completely independent of each other. You could both be scum, you could both be town, or one or the other.
Your claim came, by your own admission, when you thought you were ahead of JTJ in the vote count. And by that claim, TGC saved you. You could be lying. TGC could be trying to clear himself in the towns eyes. But if you are town, the sheer fact you have discarded all suspicion toward TGC just seems odd to me. If it were me in the same boat, I'd be bloody thankful. But I wouldn't so outwardly discard the possibility of TGC Scum. And that's what makes me unsure about your claim right now.
| UM wrote: |
1. Is he suspicious of Jedo's opening post?
2. Does he think TGC was right to save Zag?
3. What's the best move from here? More scumhunting, a lurker lynch, no lynch?
|
1. Yes I am. But not overly so. I'm far more interested in his later posts than his (or anyones opening post)
2. TGC was NOT right to save Zag. Day 1 generates chat. BUt not generally anything of quality for review later. The best thing you generally get out of day 1 is a lynch - with some info. His ability, be it town, would have been far more powerful later.
3. The best move from here is to probably move onto a new argument. The TGC-Zag issue actually can wait till later to be resolved. I'd imagine if Zag is scum, then a real cop is coming his way very soon. And also he is going to have to claim a result on someone at some stage. So the pressure will return later.
If we were to start asking questions of other players - then Raekuul/Garou/Jadesmar and to a lesser extent Sentran need some pressure put on them. Why? We have clear links between the other living players. If Raekuul was town, and was to up and die overnight, I don't think we would be able to do as much backward analysis on his death. So since the day is continuing unexpectedly, it's time for him and the others to start putting forward a lot more.
I guess that does put me in the lurker lynch camp. I'd like to lynch TGC for the sheer amount of info that could come out of it. But that would be foolhardy when he could go either way.
Actually! Sudden thought. Jadesmar hammered. And he hammered a claimed cop. So why aren't we voting him right now? If Zag turned up to be who he claims, guess who would be under massive pressure on day 2? SO perhaps we should be working as though that's exactly what happened. Jadesmar's posts are much lighter than half the players and until the hammer appeared to be under the radar. TGC is actually demonstrably less blood thirsty than Jadesmar who applied the hammer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amb
Amb the Hitched.
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:56 am Post subject: 232 |
|
|
Actually I might revise something here: "I'd imagine if I was town and I got spectacularly saved like that - I'd react just like Zag."
Actually I wouldnt react just like Zag. I'd be bloody thankful. But I wouldn't then chuck out all suspicion of a player. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raekuul
Lives under a bridge & tells stories.
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:45 am Post subject: 233 |
|
|
| Amb wrote: |
| Actually! Sudden thought. Jadesmar hammered. And he hammered a claimed cop. So why aren't we voting him right now? |
Because TGC was the only one who believed Zag's claim. He didn't claim cop, he claimed Swiss Army. There's a fundamental difference, in that we can't rely on Zag for information every night. In fact, if I'm not misremembering, Zag claimed all his powers were one-shot deals. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zag
Tired of his old title
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:37 pm Post subject: 234 |
|
|
| Amb wrote: |
| Zag wrote: |
You can say that about any insane ploy: It would be brilliant if it works. How often do people really try those insane ploys? Not very often, because they don't usually work.
|
You tried one very recently. |
And did it work? (Hint: no)
However, I will take into account your comments re TGC, and keep my suspicion on him above zero. I still think it would be foolish for a scum to say a townie as he did, but TGC HAS proven himself able to try a bold move, so I guess I have to consider it.
| Amb wrote: |
| UM wrote: |
1. Is he suspicious of Jedo's opening post?
|
1. Yes I am. But not overly so. I'm far more interested in his later posts than his (or anyones opening post) |
Do you realize that that is exactly the position I was so viciously attacked for? I said that it's a little suspicious, barely enough for a day 1 vote, and UMonk has been relentlessly chewing on my leg since. Of course, he'll say that it is later things I've said that keep it up, but once he put the green-colored glasses on, anything I said was going to be interpreted as scummy.
I also think that your comments re jadesmar and others' (Do I really have to admit whose?) have convinced me that I've viewed his attempted hammer with too much OMGUS. I'm tempted to move my vote back to Jedo, who is still my second suspect. (I had Sentran there for a while, but stuff he has said since have made me less suspicious, though I guess part of that 'stuff' was his agreeing with me about jadesmar.)
I think you've made a fair and balanced assessment, coming in as a replacement. I hate to say this, but it sounds extremely like the one I made in the only game in which I came in as a replacement, the Reunion game. And I was scum in that game. I think it is very close to what you would have said whether you are town or scum, and that's just because you're a good player. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amb
Amb the Hitched.
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:32 pm Post subject: 235 |
|
|
| SO basically, you suspect me because I'm good at being both town and scum? THanks... I think.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:44 pm Post subject: 236 |
|
|
Welcome, Amb. Are you friend or foe?
TGC, I have nowhere claimed I believe Zag is 100% scum, but I believe he was plenty scummy enough for a Day 1 lynch (more so even than Zag's criteria).
| The Great Crep'er wrote: |
-Point to the instance where my Survival put the town win in danger
-Please explain how this detour now prevents a town win (like you are implicating) |
We wanted to lynch you? That probably would have been costly, especially since Zag would then have been able to use his plan of action, or Sentran and Mackay could have done their gambit. I'll be real with you, it's hard to estimate hypothetical statistics, I get that, but remember that instead of you the town would have had two cops. You for some reason won't admit that the town had a significant chance without you. If Monk wasn't in this game, I'm sure he would believe his objective testimony to the balance of the game and how your Day 1 lynch would not have put the town's win chances in danger.
| The Great Crep'er wrote: |
| So you won't vote a claimed scum, but you will vote a claimed cop [on Day 1]... |
Fixed.
| The Great Crep'er wrote: |
| Protecting an asset is extremely important if town is about to lose it |
The problem with this line of reasoning (and I'm sure I'll be coming back to this when I get to your next post) is that you don't know all the assets of the town. Zag may actually have the weakest role (if he's town at all). Who are you to decide?*
| The Great Crep'er wrote: |
| There is no oracle telling us that it has to be jadesmar today |
You are absolutely correct--I thought you might like to have that posted about yourself--BUT he is in the lead with a deadline and he's the one most people who haven't voted yet have talked about turning to. I'm just going based on what's at the plate right now. I'm not prescient.
| The Great Crep'er wrote: |
| Using my power to go against "the will of the town"? That would seem to suggest that I am not town. I have a will, after all. |
I'm sorry. Any reasonable person knows I'm talking about the majority. You have a will, but nobody would define your will as "the town's." That's simple substitution. So, it doesn't suggest you are not town, but that you usurped the majority position. *This is a democratic system (hence the voting), so it really was not a good idea for you to do what you did. Now that Amb (somewhat of an outside observer at this point) has come and said the same thing, maybe you'll just stop this line of pathetic defense and just admit maybe your power would have been better used at another time.
| The Great Crep'er wrote: |
| It is not circular reasoning, it is you using an arbitrary statement to try to discredit me. So since I am not interested in arguing with your jib and would prefer to use logic, I will have to poll the masses. |
By all means, poll the masses, but I can just go back through the thread and tell you what they said. This is what they said before you saved Zag:
- Garou_Kinfolk (posts 42, 43): 19, TGC: The tone seems calm, says he'll be watching Jedo, and it feels like there's a lot of thought put into it...
33, TGC: This post felt calm, logical and inquisitive.
- jadesmar (post 52): made a comment about you possibly being linked with Perp(/Amb).
- Jedo the Jedi (post 56): I think TGC makes a good point. (FYI, I was viewing you as town before you saved Zag. After the fluctuation, you're around null.)
- Monk (post 69): thinks TGC is slightly scummy for defending Perpentach.
- Perpentach (post 71): ranked you as mostly not scummy (paraphrase) equal to me!
- Sentran (post 93): voted you for what he deemed to be a "double standard"; Monk says he would vote for the same reason if there wasn't somebody he viewed as actually scummy (post 98). (That suggests he thought it would be a good Day 1 reason if that had been the first thing to come up.)
Now that I've debunked that, I'll reaffirm that it is circular reasoning.
Starting premise: If I don't protect Zag with my power, I would be the next target.
Conclusion: I should protect Zag with my power to prevent myself being the next target.
It's textbook.
Finally, 1) "JoAT" is "jack-of-all-trades." 2) Show where my reasoning against Zag was opinion and just us disagreeing. This should probably involve you finding the reasons I gave for lynching Zag and you debunking their legitimacy.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:52 pm Post subject: 237 |
|
|
Amb, my brag was because I felt Zag was putting my capabilities as town--or lack thereof in his estimation--as evidence for my scumminess. That's the only reason I posted that stuff.
As for looking at those people, I think that's a reasonable idea, though I don't really know how to go about it. I'm having enough trouble correcting all of the misinformation. If somebody wants to point at something, I'll evaluate it and say what I think.
| Amb wrote: |
| Actually! Sudden thought. Jadesmar hammered. And he hammered a claimed cop. So why aren't we voting him right now? |
Please read my rebuttal in this regard.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amb
Amb the Hitched.
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:16 am Post subject: 238 |
|
|
| I don't think an argument that can be summed up as " It's really not that black-and-white" counts as a rebuttal. It counts as fence sitting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:29 am Post subject: 239 |
|
|
How about you respond to the five points I gave and have an intelligent discussion with me?
_________________
Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amb
Amb the Hitched.
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:28 am Post subject: 240 |
|
|
I could. But I don't know how useful it would be. All it would really do is keep the focus on an unresolvable issue, while not really introducing anything new to the mix.
Anyway: I guess I'm a Muggins.
| Quote: |
1) There were four hours between the fourth vote and the hammer, and that was clearly enough time for TGC to use his power.
|
That really doesn't tell us anything about the alignment of either player. So it's a nothing point.
| Quote: |
2) Everybody voting you had done so out of the belief you were scummy, not out of "just looking to put some pressure." Therefore, jadesmar wasn't preventing anybody from unvoting because they weren't likely wanting to do so.
|
The argument against Zag wasn't totally unfounded, but like most day 1 wagons it came out of nothing. Jadesmar hammering is scummy in so much that he wouldn't know it was going to happen. In a normal situation, Zag would be dead and day 2 would be going. If Zag was, as he claimed, then Jadesmar would be the number one target. He might not be the one lynched. But he'd cop a huge amount of the day 2 pressure.
| Quote: |
| 3) I can only assume you mean "someone who doesn't know the alignment of the lynchee shouldn't be doing [a quick final vote]." That's probably true, but I've already argued this doesn't look like "a quick final vote." |
4 hours later isn't a quick vote? It sure would be a quick vote if Jadesmar logged on at that moment in time and saw it as an easy opportunity to kill. (Though it can be argued that a scum wouldn't be so crazy to stand up on day 1 like that). I disagree with the assertion that the vote wasn't quick.
| Quote: |
| 4) Sentran and raekuul had only recently changed their minds based on the arguments of others which had been posted on that page, so the support jadesmar may have been basing his vote on wasn't there for him to have voted earlier. |
I'm not really sure what you are trying to put across with point 4. Sorry if it should be really obvious.
| Quote: |
5) It's Day 1, so hammering "the most likely to be scum person even though they have a good chance of being a townie" isn't near as scummy as it might be in later days. (I would even disagree on that general sweep, but that's beyond this conversation.) The point of the Day 1 lynch is really to get information from the interactions after having a point of reference. jadesmar trying to bring that about doesn't feel very scummy to me. |
This is actually a strong reason to be angry at TGC who cleared the votes. Of all the living, Zag would have given us the most information. Contrast him with me, Raekuul, Sentran etc. You won't learn as much because we haven't been in the thick of the events so far.
All in all, I am fence sitting on who is Scum and what things mean. But I dislike the idea that fence sitters put forth arguments as though they are in one camp or the other. JTJ is however, despite my arguing with him right now, reading more town than scum. But this is early days. Very early days. And we shouldn't lose sight of that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
