Heroes and Villains mafia - The town claim victory

[MNOWAX]

[Jedo the Jedi]

Again, I can't defend against the unlikeliness of me being a cop. I can ask why I as scum would claim a controversial role. This too will be received with opposition, but it's all I have.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[MNOWAX]

because frankly you have not much of a choice, your scum partner that is linked to you ( by his " cop clearing" ) is about to go down with the ship, and will be easily taking you with him, especially since once Zagscum is lynched, you are right next on the list, and either you'll be cleared ( Sentran is smart enough to block you tonight) or you'll be easily lynched with four other happy townies.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Garou_Kinfolk]

Zags first post of the day had been bugging me for some reason. I hadn't known why, so I took a closer look at it.

[3iff]

[Zag]

(I've answered this already, but...)

I was assuming that it would not end the day if you reached a majority, that we could test your power easily and move on, with you confirmed as town. I really hadn't thought through all the ramifications. Once they were pointed out, I agreed that the confirmation we would get is not worth the risk of ending the day prematurely, so I switched my vote to MNO, someone I am pretty sure is scum.

Note that if the test failed and you were lynched, it would mean you had been lying, so we'd be lynching a scum. If we knew that testing your claimed ability wouldn't end the day, I'd be pushing very strongly to do so -- it would be only upside for the town with no downside. Then we could go on to scum hunting as normal, but with one more person confirmed town.

I'm trying and failing to understand what you see as suspicious in the second quote.

Also, Frodo did not use the ring intentionally. He failed his saving throw succumbed to the Nazgul's (or maybe the ring's) power pushing him to put it on. However, I have to admit that the whole theme is supposed to be movie heroes and villains, but I am drawing from the book.

I haven't said what my third ability is. (I didn't even think I had specifically said that there were originally three, but that is correct.) I prefer not to at this time.

I don't have any trouble with you fishing for claims today. I'm with you that I want to hear MNO's (fake) claim.

--

Oh! I had missed Jedo's claim. I was wondering why you had come out so confidently against MNO. Whom did you investigate on night 1? (I realize you said that you were blocked. This is more curiosity than anything else.)

I don't have much defense against Jedo's accusation against me. I agree that everything I've said so far is very much like what I might have said if I were scum and just making it all up. All I can say is that I didn't, this time.

[Jedo the Jedi]

If you can't guess whom I investigated, then I'm shocked.

We can totally hear MNO's claim, but from my perspective it is pointless.

Here's my proposal: we lynch MNO and discover I am telling the truth. Overnight, Sentran should block Zag again while I investigate one of them. If Sentran is telling the truth, there should be no kill, and I can provide the final solution. (My result would provide confirmation that Sentran didn't simply pass on killing to frame Zag.) If I die, I think it should be assumed Sentran was lying.

Now, I see many of the potential flaws with this situation (not the least of which is whether you trust me to be telling the truth), but I'm happy to talk through some of the contingencies. At this point for me, Garou, TGC, and myself are town.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[MNOWAX]

I apologize for not claiming before this, i was under the impression that Jadesmar already name claimed.

I'm "Dirty" Harry Callahan. One time, If the scum shoot at me, they get killed instead. It is one of the most useless roles in this game for me, because the LAST thing the scum want to do is shoot me. I never have any credibility, so they always try to lynch me, like in this game.

GK, this is stuff I have been bringing up. Go with your gut, you know they are both scum. Both Zag and Jedo have flimsy stories, and really can't defend themselves from that. Jedo claims he's the third cop in the game, with no n1 result, but just so happens to have a guilty on me, Sentran roleblocked Zag on a night with no night kill, while they only thing he has done is "clear" his buddy Jedo from night 1, this should be open and shut case for the town.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[MNOWAX]

[Garou_Kinfolk]

It looks like TGC is pretty much clear in everyone's minds. If it turns out he's scum then he deserves the win.

@TGC: I was wondering if you could give us your character name. I just want to see if it fits with the power.

@Zag: The point of the quotes was to show that you seemed awfully willing to lynch someone whom you believed has a very town claims that you didn't believe could/would come up with it on their own. I asked for your third set of ability choices is to see if it fits with the character. McClane was a cop, but the only doc stuff he did was bandage his feet in the first movie. That's all I can think of for the doc. He did stop, or block, the bad guys from doing whatever they were going to do in each movie, but then all of the heroes here have done that. I don't know if the rolecop part fits.
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[Garou_Kinfolk]

Here's my take on the investigation roles and where I have a problem.

Mod confirms UMonk is a non-standard one.
Good. Can't argue about it.

Zag claims a 1 shot sane cop.
Ok. don't know why he said it was sane, but it still works.

Jedo claims cop.
Umm... The problem/doubt I have here is there's no limit on its use, like with all of the other abilities we've seen, and there's no specification as to whether it's sane or not.

Zags posting of a sane cop has me thinking that if he is scum, one of the other scum powers might be to direct the cop on who to investigate (or they both would so they don't lose the power if one is lynched). This would still make Jedo town, but his results useless.
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[Zag]

[Garou_Kinfolk]

I've read through the day and if I went with my gut I'd vote Zag and fos TGC. I can't figure why that is as of yet, so I'm going to keep my vote and fos as is for now.

My reads as of right now (1=Scum, 5=Town):
5 Me
4 Jedo
4 Sentran
4 MNOWAX
3 TGC
2 Zag

I find MNOWAXs claim to be believable.
The same with Jedos.
Sentrans flavor claim I can see making sense after some thought.
Haven't heard from TGC, but he hasn't said much today and not a lot of time has passed since I asked him his flavor.
Without knowing Zags full role, I can only say some of it fits and some doesn't.
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[Sentran]

I've been holding off posting this morning because I'm in a bad mood due to RL stress. Yet I feel there are some things that should be mentioned. I'll try not to let my mood bleed through too much.

Zag: I began the day by going after him hard and heavy, as one would expect when a roleblock results in a no-kill night. I expected an OMGUS vote from him, or at the very least a stronger showing against my findings. His lack of response indicates to me that he would rather that subject just quietly go away, and that more people focus on his feud with MNO.

Jedo: Although I am still not convinced of his innocence, his play for the majority of the game has been more congruent with town than with mafia. That puts my second most likely scum candidate as...

MNO: Strong play today, but his bickering is starting to feel contrived. He has also shown a strong willingness to direct my night actions. Considering what info my choices gave us last night, I feel that I am capable of making such decisions myself.

A few games back we conjectured about a feud between two Mafia leading the bulk of the conversation to pull attention away from any actual scum-finding. I feel that this argument may be a continuation of that idea. In this case, the scum are both under scrutiny, and are using the argument against each other so that when one is lynched, the other will be pseudo-cleared as a result.
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Garou_Kinfolk]

@Jedo: Who did you investigate during Night 1? I know you said it should be obvious, but I want to make sure there isn't some kind of misunderstanding somewhere. Thanks.
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[Jedo the Jedi]

I know my result is sane, but none of you do.

MNO, the problem with your logic is Sentran could be lying.

In all honesty, we have two dichotomies here: Sentran or Zag is scum and MNO or Jedo is scum. That's the basics. From my perspective, I know MNO is scum, and I cannot be sure who is scum between Sentran and Zag. Theoretically, MNO should also be unsure about Sentran and Zag. I think this should be a consideration by everybody when evaluating the veracity of my claim.

Now, it does seem excessive for there to be three investigative abilities on the side of town. The solutions from my perspective are 1) Zag is lying or 2) Monk's was hampered in some way (sanity or use restriction). That's what I have. This inclines me toward thinking Zag is scum, but I have a way to confirm that if Sentran is indeed telling the truth and does his part to ensure I can find out.

Maybe this will help you people believe me: I'll speculate on how this could go wrong for town with me as scum.

If I'm scum and I'm bussing MNO my buddy (since that's really the only way this works), we would be at 4/1 tomorrow. I turn in one of them as scum (by process of elimination), that puts us at 3/1 going into Night and potentially 2/1 going into the final Day. You lynch me on the final Day and the town wins. So, as far as I can tell, believing me doesn't hamper town. You can speculate that I as scum have a power that insures me victory if I can just get you people to go along with this play, but I neither am scum nor do I have such a power, so I can't provide an argument against that.

If I'm scum with Zag and we lynch MNO today, we go into Night at 3/2. If Sentran doesn't pick correctly with the block, Zag and I as scum would have a deadlock and win. That's a more difficult situation to go along with.

If I'm scum with Sentran (the only other reasonable option I see), you have to lynch one of us instead of the targets we are proposing. That puts town at Lylo tomorrow having to decide that the other really is scum. I guess town would be more likely to catch the other in this duo if you lynch Sentran first, but I really don't know how to speculate on that.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I investigated Monk. I said, "Friends close and enemies closer," meaning since we were pseudo-buddying in the thread, I would check him out.

Here's my problem with MNO's claim: it's unverifiable. That's the perfect scum claim. The same is really true of Garou's claim, but I'm not worried about that because of my result against MNO.

I also think it might be worthwhile to analyze the possibilities of the other scum teams and town's probability of winning. At least it is profitable if you believe that there are only those two dichotomies in play. I don't have time for that now, but I'll do it later if nobody else has beaten me to it.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[MNOWAX]

the difference is the level of proof Jedo. You can't be sure you're sane, especially with three claimed cops running around. You can jump up and down all day and say that you're sane, but you can't prove that.

Sentran may be lying yes, but it doesn't explain the lack of a night kill. No one can claim the lack of the night kill other than sentran. That is rock solid proof. His evidence is verified by the lack of a night kill. see the difference?
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Jedo the Jedi]

First of all, I can be sure I'm sane. Nobody else can. So, the only true part of that first paragraph is that I can't prove it to you guys, but it has been confirmed to me.

Second, Sentran's evidence isn't verified, it is corroborated. The lack of a night kill could be because Garou was targeted by the scum to eliminate a townie who wouldn't divulge more information. There's also the chance that the scum chose not to kill to create this scenario. If a scum isn't lynched today and there's no way to block their NK, they win, so that's really not unbelievable.

So, there is no difference at present. It's a matter of faith on both parts. The true difference is that I know I'm telling the truth. I think somebody could compare our posts and see that your posts are reading pretty scummy, never mind that jadesmar previously looked scummy to certain people.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Garou_Kinfolk]

Alright. This is a mistake I was lead to believe once already. I'm not going to let it get around now that Jedo has said it.

Today we're at 4 town/2 scum.
If we lynch scum today we go to night with 4 town/1 scum.
If we don't we're at 3 town/2 scum.
Tomorrow we'll start at 3 town/1 scum with lynch, 2 town/2 scum without (deadlocked to town loss).
Tomorrow night we'd be at 2 town/1 scum if we don't lynch the second scum.
The day after it'll be 1 town and 1 scum. Town loses.

The fact that Jedo and Zag have both suggested that we might have another day makes me suspicious of both.

@MNOWAX: I think you missed my post today that said I'm bullet proof once. It gives us a second reason why there wasn't a NK last night. Whether or not it was uses I can't say. I didn't get a message from the mod, but my role PM didn't say I would.
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[Jedo the Jedi]

I don't know where you are getting that I'm suggesting we have another day, so maybe point that out. I'm actively trying to help the town with analyzing scenarios and putting my cards on the table. If I've made a misstep in logic, I'll gladly adjust my analysis.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[The Great Crep'er]

Sorry, I've been busy this week and haven't been able to contribute to the game as much as I like. It's looking like I'll be held up even further with an essay due in just a few short days and a French Exam next to that.

Just to put this out there: My character is "Juror 8" from the film and play "Twelve Angry Men". (One of my favorites) The "clearvotes" ability I'm guessing refers to the character's very persuasive quality.

I'll look over the new developments and see if I can get a post up tonight. Although I may be a bit tempted to just read MNO and Zag due to the current situation.
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Potato. Belgium. Eight. Random Lynch # Mafia awaits.

[Zag]

[Zag]

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Zag]

Ahh, good point. If I actually were scum, I would have thought of that. Sorry, but that means you won't be waking up.

[Garou_Kinfolk]

[Zag]

That was in response to your objection to my plan to test your power. If you'll see, in my original plan, I specifically said that no one should vote for anyone else while we test it.

To be honest, when I originally proposed the plan, I hadn't even thought about it triggering day's end. But even so, I did request that there be no other votes, just as a point of caution when doing such a test.

[Jedo the Jedi]

The whole thing is predicated on there being no kill tonight, so that's not a mistake. If there's a death tomorrow that isn't me, you should probably kill me. (Of course, I'll then argue that Sentran is scum in that scenario even though you won't believe me.)

My plan really hinges on Sentran. If he is scum or doesn't believe me, we're up shit creek.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[MNOWAX]

Are we seriously going to let the two scumlords dictate how this day goes?

I love this little banter. Go ahead. When you two are done, the rest of us townies will be lynching Zag.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Sentran]

[Zag]

[MNOWAX]

Quick question: Why haven't we lynched Zag yet? We have enough of Zag and Jedo's spinning that the Harlem Globetrotters would be envious of.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Garou_Kinfolk]

Quick question. Who wants the day to end now? I'm not saying I can do that, I'm just wondering for curiosities sake.
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[MNOWAX]

if it leads to Zag's lynch, I'm for it. If it ends up with me in that noose and the town losing the game because of it, then I'm against it.

sooo... simple answer is maybe.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

I'd be glad for the day to end now, because it would end with MNO's lynch.

[Jedo the Jedi]

MNO, why are you so concerned about the Day ending now? If we're obviously scum, it shouldn't matter that we keep talking.

What I find striking is that you don't have the least bit of hesitation about your reads. If I was town* in this situation, I would be thinking of contingencies and other possibilities. Even more, you don't have extra information and I'm claiming that I do! That is too bold and too reckless when we are pretty much at Lylo if we don't hit scum today and Sentran isn't lying and doesn't miss tonight. Lots of ifs which I don't like to hang my hopes on.

*Speech in character since MNO doesn't believe me anyway.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[MNOWAX]

because it will take everyone not scum to lynch Zag. all four of us have to jump on a lynch, and the more spinning you do the more likely we end this day in deadlock and you risk losing me and losing the game because of it. its scum stalling that is working and will cost us the game.

I don't want this day to end now, I want this day with the right lynch being made. Zagscum needs to swing today, simple as that.
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The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Garou_Kinfolk]

@ Jedo: I was hoping you could tell us what movie your character is from according to your role P.M.? It will help to clear up what kind of cop you are to me. I would also like to apologize because I'm confusing the types of cop that you are theorized as being. When I've been referring to you role, I've been meaning to call it an A.D.H.D./A.D.D. Cop, not an insane one.

As far as the claimed roles go:
TGCs role fits perfectly with his power. I have no problem with it. Thanks for telling us the flavor.
MNOWAXs flavor and claimed power fit together as well, so I don't have a problem with it.
Zag hasn't given a complete claim yet, and I have already posted my problems with his claim in an earlier post.
Sentran is the only cartoon character in the game. I also have a hard time seeing Mulan as a roleblocker.
Jedos role is the third one to have some kind of investigative ability. I still think it's possible that it could be an A.D.H.D./A.D.D. cop. I'm going to stop there about it until he replies.
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[Jedo the Jedi]

I am from Silence of the Lambs, and I want to reiterate that I am certain my result is a sane result. You all can speculate as you will, but there is no doubt for me about my sanity.

Also, MNO's claim certainly fits together, but that doesn't mean it fits in the game. An endgame claim which allows the player never to confirm their ability is almost always scum.

I think noting Sentran as the only cartoon is a good thing to mention and incorporate when evaluating between him and Zag. I will say though that Lassie is not human, so it doesn't seem way outside.
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.