Romnesia

[DejMar]

By definition, evil feminists are evil. Yet, I would not blanket all feminists as evil.

[The Potter]

Should a doctor be allowed to preform a surgery that allows the unrighteous to safely and hedonistically live?

I have never liked the idea of abortion. I think that is moral sin and a decision a potential mother will regret for the rest of her life. But I am much more opposed to criminalizing the process that allows it to happen safely.
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Artwork | Fractals | Don't ignore your dreams; don't work too much; say what you think; cultivate friendships; be happy.

[Jedo the Jedi]

[DejMar]

[The Potter]

Yes, I do believe laws should allow people to make stupid choices. Even immoral and awful choices that go against my values. Some primitive cultures that still practice infanticide--for life to continue some also must end.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about safe harbor laws? Do you support the idea of a mother who feels unable to raise a child to be able to give it up without repercussions?
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Artwork | Fractals | Don't ignore your dreams; don't work too much; say what you think; cultivate friendships; be happy.

[DejMar]

The detriment to society is lack of responsibility.

[extropalopakettle]

In most abortion discussions I find it useful to apply a pro-choice argument, about abortion, to infanticide, and see why or why it doesn't hold. Usually then it comes back to the an implicit assumption about what is or isn't a human life. For instance:

[Zag]

While I am pro-choice, I have always had a sympathy for an anti-choice argument. My usual comment is:

At some point between conception and when a child turns 4 years old, he becomes a human being. Conception is a pretty defensible choice, even though I don't agree with it.

The big difference between abortion and infanticide is the alternatives that are available. Whenever there is a conflict between the rights of two individuals, you have to consider not only the rights of each but also the alternatives to resolving the conflict. There is an easy alternative to infanticide: just put the child up for adoption.

Consider this scenario: You are walking down the street, minding your own business, when you are kidnapped and chloroformed. You wake up in a hospital-looking room, strapped to a bed. There are tubes connecting you to a machine that also connects to another person. An attractive woman in a nurse's uniform explains to you:

[Undercover Monk]

Im sorry was the implications of that cartoon that because Republicans do not support abortion than they are responsible for coat hanger back alley abortions. I suppose that Republicans also are responsible for the Dark Knight tradgedy because they are are lax on gun control. And Obama is responsible for the Libyan disaster because he doesnt want a strong military. That kind of stuff makes me so angry I can hardly see straight. No one takes responsibility for their actions anymore. I failed my math test because the teacher didnt address my needs give me a break.

I believe in free choice freedom to live as the only true rights given by God to humanity the rest we have given ourselves. I do believe in Life Liberty and the Pursuit of happieness but for me abortion comes down to choice. I am not a fanatical nut. Im willing to listen to arguments about when an unborn child has rights to live. Obviously every fertilized egg does not become a child nor are those undeveloped eggs given a funeral. But at some point between conception and birth they are a recognized human being. Correct me if Im wrong but people have been convicted of double homicide when murdering a pregnant women. So when does that embryo/fetus get the right to live.

In the case of rape neither the child nor the woman had a choice in the matter. Having a child besides the risk of complications during delivery can put additional stress on the mother so at that point her well being is paramount to me.

However in the case of opps I got pregnant (regardless of if protection was used) the woman made a choice. The unborn baby had no choice so my sympathy goes 100% to the child. You talk about the need to educate but seriously most people over the age of 14 know man+woman=baby. So the idea because Im defending the child's right to life is somehow infringing on the mothers right to choose (when she chose to have sex) is ugly to me.


another way of putting it is at what point does the mothers body stop being her property and become the soul of another. Its a tricky question. But I hate ALL republicans being represented as hate mongers and women hating pigs just because we believe an unborn child should have the right to CHOOSE as well.

I sincerely hope that I have offended no one during this post as that was not my intention just trying to explain my position to Mackay as well as others.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Undercover Monk]

LOL zag simulpost covered a lot of the sam ground. to answer no you are not morally obligated to save the stranger. Especially because your abscense from the real world would result in harm to you or your family. Hence in the case of two innocents raped woman and unborn child I side with the woman because she not only was innocence but harmed in the first place. The rights of the victim trump that of a possible victim.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[DejMar]

Again, one needs to look at the words used:
Morally obligated is defined as 'forced or compelled to do what is right'.

Of course one should not need to be forced or compelled to do what is right. But that doesn't change the fact that it often expected and required. Of course there are situations where harm might befall one for doing what is morally right. It is in these situations where I will acknowlege that the person's fear is a viable excuse. For instance, a pregnant woman is told by her doctor that if she carries her baby to term she will die. An abortion in such a case is not morally right, but morally excusable. Personally, I would hope she would have the faith to carry the baby to term.

[Zag]

[DejMar]

[The Potter]

I believe social issues should not be handled at the federal level. Even murder is a state crime (with a long list of exceptions to make it a federal crime).

What would a country where abortions are illegal but still socially practiced be like?
Strangely enough, I support drug legalization for the same reason. By having the such operations legal, it is easier to create a safe environment that curbs the social cause. Criminalizing the safe practice of something doesn't address the real cause.
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Artwork | Fractals | Don't ignore your dreams; don't work too much; say what you think; cultivate friendships; be happy.

[LordKinbote]

[Undercover Monk]

[Mackay]

I've only got 5 minutes but I wanted to address a couple of questions at UM quickly:

You state that an abortion is OK if the mother didn't consent to the sex. Do you realise that your implication is that women who have sex should be forced to face consequences for the act of having consensual sex - and that your dismissive attitude toward sex education (You realise that there are correct and incorrect ways to use contraception and practice safe sex, and people who are taught to be ashamed of their desires are unlikely to pursue said correct methods, yes?) would lead to more abortions? What punishment do you propose for men who have sex?

Do you oppose mandating contraceptive coverage, too, then?

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Zag]

[Undercover Monk]

The relavence is that the parents obviously still thought of her as a human being even with lack of brain activity which feeds into my overall point of the discussion needs to be when does the baby gain so called inalienable rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happieness. Those of us who seek those rights are not woman haters MSNBC.

On a sadder note the East coast took a pounding last night. It takes millions of lives being endagered to cut the spin job these networks do. Instead of (I dont know, maybe) report the news and lets us make up our own mind. Prayers going out to all you GL'ers on the east coast. stay safe.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Undercover Monk]

[Mackay]

Hey, sorry I dropped out of the conversation for so long. It's been a full-on couple of weeks (We're moving house this weekend, I've got exams the week after, had an assignment due last week, and I'm recovering from a herniated disc. All my spare time outside of working and studying has been spent packing and cleaning very, very slowly, heh). I have definitely been very interested in getting back to this discussion, but there are a lot of people to address and I really wasn't feeling up to it until today. My apologies.

I'm going to start with Monk because of the latest post, but hopefully I'll get to everyone.

[Mackay]

DejMar, I feel like we are talking past one another to an extent, as you seem to be basing a religious argument upon the Declaration of Independence and I'm not quite sure how you get from one to the other.

I would like to know from what perspective you are actually arguing - the religious or the political. Could you give me your interpretation of Exodus 21:

[Jedo the Jedi]

I understand better now, Mackay. Thank you.

Also, I want to caution against proof-texting. I'm not saying your use and interpretation of this passage is necessarily incorrect, but the Old Testament is a collection of writings to a different people, at a different time, in a different place. (You know this.) As someone who is in the midst of an Old Testament interpretation course, I'm not sure we can take this law simply at its face-value. To make the point, I refer to Scurra's comment in a different thread. (And no, I don't have an answer for how this should be interpreted "correctly" since I really don't think there is only one correct interpretation and I haven't done much study in Old Testament interpretation. What I've gotten from the class so far is cautionary words and some information to aid in interpretation of the Old Testament in general. This really is just a caution.)
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Mackay]

A fair warning.

I honestly just don't really understand what he was trying to say, so I'm trying to establish whether he is using the Bible or the Declaration of Independence as the basis for his arguments. In addition, I guess I'm pointing out that there is a distinction made between "grown woman" and "unborn child" in terms of how their injury/death is treated. But as you well know, I'm not much of an Old Testament adherent, and I'm certainly not trying to apply said law. =)

[DejMar]

[extropalopakettle]

[extropalopakettle]

So if a man intends serious harm to the mother, but fails and only harms (kills) the child, ok, slap on the wrist. But same intention (harm/death to mother), successfully realized, is not ok, but demands life for life.

So it seems intention is not what matters.

So if intention doesn't matter ... why the different punishments for death to mother, versus death to unborn child (where intended target was mother).

[Mackay]

[Thok]

[DejMar]

[Amb]

THis thread is quite fascinating to read btw. I wish I had something interesting to add.

[Mackay]

DejMar, why do you think there is a punishment at all if there is no injury/harm to either the mother or the child? Why not just say "hitting a woman results in a fine" and leave out the part about the birth altogether?

Your belief is that the New International Version of the Bible was translated by people with a political agenda? Which commentary, specifically, asserts this?

Could you please answer this question, which I have now addressed to you three, maybe four times: Do you support the mandating of contraceptive coverage and safe sex education in order to reduce the number of abortions?

[tigerbalm*]

[DejMar]

[Dread Pirate Westley]

If you want to say

[DejMar]

To comply with your own condescending suggestion, (you have demanded something of me you, yourself, just admitted that you could not do), here, following are but a tittle of them:

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.” Genesis 1:26-27
“You created every part of me; you knit me together in my mother‛s womb. When my bones were being formed, carefully put together in my mother‛s womb, when I was growing there in secret, you knew that I was there – you saw me before I was born. The days allotted to me had all been recorded in your book, before any of them ever began. Psalm 139:13-16
“Don‛t you know that you yourselves are God‛s Temple and that God‛s spirit lives in you?” 1 Corinthians 2:16
"Love your neighbour as yourself." Mark 12:31
"A new commandment I give to you : love one another as I have loved you." John 13:34

[Mackay]

DejMar, I think you missed my earlier post. I asked some questions to which I would like to hear your answers.

[tigerbalm*]

[Amb]