How important should our National Anthem be?

[Buzzsaw]

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With Veterans Day coming up, a lot of stuff has been on tv about it, highlighting heroes who gave their lives to keep our country free. Concerning our National Anthem, how solemn and serious an occasion should it be when it's played?
Should hats be removed and hands placed over hearts? Do you follow these customs? What do you think when you see others not observing any respect for the anthem, like talking to the person next to them during its play, ignoring it altogether?

Okay, I confess although interested in your opinions I also needed an opportunity to share this hilarious yet ironic video.

Immortalized by a TV news crew, this 2006 performance of the national anthem by a Chattanooga police officer is downright shameful.
Fellow officers struggle to remain stoic as he Pablo's the lyrics from beginning to end. The awful rendition is made worse by the occasion — a memorial for fallen officers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SHnpWohrg0&feature=related



How could this happen? It seems like the guy MUST HAVE KNOWN AHEAD OF TIME HE DID NOT KNOW THE SONG TOO WELL.

Note some officers think this funny, some not so much, while others present pretend like nothing's wrong, everything's a-ok.
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[Dread Pirate Westley]

I believe (and this is something I've put a fair amount of thought into) that you should do whatever you feel is appropriate when the anthem is played, and respect everyone else's right to do the same. Want to stand up and salute? Go for it. Want to exercise your right to freedom of speech and make a statement by sitting down and facing away from the flag? Cool. Want to berate the guy next to you for doing either of the above? Worry about your own self and let him live his life.

Unless you're at a Blackhawks game, then you cheer at the top of your lungs for the entire song.

[Jedo the Jedi]

[The Potter]

I think people should at the least be quietly respectful when an anthem is played. Also it is acceptable to remind people nearby and glare at someone showing obvious disrespect. The idea of showing respect--participation not required--is key to me.

PATRIOTISM, n. Combustible rubbish ready to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name.
In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.
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Artwork | Fractals | Don't ignore your dreams; don't work too much; say what you think; cultivate friendships; be happy.

[Zag]

This seems marginally related, and I thought it worth discussion.

I had a friend on facebook posted a picture of kids in school saying the Pledge of Allegiance, with the comment, "Press like if you remember doing this in school and you think kids should start doing it again."

I commented, "as long as they drop the 'under God' then I'm cool with it." He was rather appalled.

Thoughts?

[Mackay]

From the perspective of someone who grew up in a country where we don't do anything like that, making students say the Pledge of Allegiance is really creepy. It seems like brainwashing/indoctrination.

I don't find the "under God" part any more or less creepy than the entire thing. The whole thing reminds me of all the recitations and stuff you have to do in Catholic Mass (I can still remember most of them from when I was a kid).

[Zag]

Well, sure. It sounds TOO much like something you say in church. It's the whole separation of church and state that I'm trying to maintain. The pledge, otherwise, is pretty harmless, imo. I don't actually think it a bad thing to do a little indoctrination, to teach children that living in a democracy has responsibilities along with the rights. For those of you who didn't grow up saying it every day, here it is:

[The Potter]

I remember when it became mandatory at all schools in Kodiak to say the pledge of allegiance. Fortunately I was at a small school in Chiniak. So we said it once just so that everyone would be familiar with the practice. And never again.

"Under god" never irked me.
"In God We Trust" on the currency bothers me more.

I mean, someone shouldn't mind being under god even if they don't believe in him. But to ask someone to trust something they don't believe in seems unfair!

Also I despise the "like this if you agree" thing that happens on Facebook. Having a larger number of likes doesn't make something better or more fair. Like the page if you wish to draw a little awareness to something in your most likely similar minded friend group. ~wanders off to like the cynical page~
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Artwork | Fractals | Don't ignore your dreams; don't work too much; say what you think; cultivate friendships; be happy.

[The Potter]

how about "under contrail-ed skies" ?
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Artwork | Fractals | Don't ignore your dreams; don't work too much; say what you think; cultivate friendships; be happy.

[LordKinbote]

Of course, we should say "under God"...exactly like our forefathers always intended! If they didn't want us to say it, they shouldn't have written it that way!

Let's see how subtle that sarcasm was, shall we?

[Thok]

Are you implying our Founding Fathers were godless communists? Treasonous.

I'm fully aware of the actual history of "under God".

[Mackay]

[Nsof]

[Jedo the Jedi]

I don't know how you disagree with DPW or myself, Nsof. First, we are referencing being at a sporting event, so there's no real avoidance of the anthem. Second, we are precisely saying that you should be respectful of others' rights by not interrupting the anthem in any way. I feel like sitting is being passive in my objection.

The upshot of the whole church/state business is that the Pledge of Allegiance is the creed of the state religion. It's precisely because of religious freedom that you shouldn't require people to say the Pledge. If they ever go to enforcing such a thing, you can be sure the Supreme Court will have a big case on their hands.
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[Quailman]

I think everyone should stand for a national anthem, whether it's your own or not. I particulary liked during the Summer Olympics, when Usain Bolt (an egotistical guy from Jamaica) was being interviewed and a national anthem began playing behind him. It was a medal ceremony for some other event, and they were playing an anthem from some other country. He stopped the interview to turn and respest the flag that was being raised before continuing.

[Buzzsaw]

I agree with Quailman. Of course a person has the right to disregard the anthem. But the very reason that is an option, that we live in a society that allows us that freedom, is the very same reason one should respect the anthem when it's performed.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I don't know about you, but I have the freedom to disregard something regardless of the powers in place.
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[Zag]

[Mackay]

Fair enough - once you get into things which are universally valuable lessons for children, it's hard to argue against teaching them that even if it does count as 'indoctrination' - though I suppose a debate could be made over what counts as "universally valuable". I don't think the Pledge of Allegiance even comes close though. It doesn't instruct children on how to behave, it tells them "the USA is awesome!" It strikes me as teaching children blind nationalism, which doesn't seem any less icky than indoctrinating children to blind religious faith (incidentally, I'm sure you picked this up, but I am absolutely against making kids recite religious platitudes in schools as well. I just don't see the rest of the Pledge as much better).

[Zag]

Part of the problem with the pledge is that the word "allegiance" has lost its meaning, probably because of the pledge. (For that matter, so has the word 'pledge.') But essentially the pledge says that I promise not to commit treason. (Well, a little more than that, but you know what I mean.) I am all for people no committing treason. ... well, members of countries I respect, I guess. I would applaud, say, a nuclear scientist in North Korea who exposes state secrets in order to keep his own insane government from acquiring WMD's.

But, as an American, I think it reasonable that other Americans be required to promise their support for our country. I have a fair bit of problem with how that has traditionally been interpreted (by, say, Joe McCarthy), but I would have a big problem with any citizen who harms the country's interests for personal gain.

[Quailman]

We have our own pledge.

"Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible."

I had to google that. I always thought it was more like:

"I'll be as hearty of mind as I am of body. I'll be a straight shooter and a square dealer. My family name will be sacred and my word will be as good as any contract. I'll remember the Alamo. I'll stick by my friends and I'll eat more chicken fried steak."

[extropalopakettle]

[LordKinbote]

[extropalopakettle]

[itisally]

I like the pledge for many of the same reasons Zag indicated. The under god should be taken back out, as it wasn't there to begin with. In general, I think it should be said in schools.

It seems to me that many citizens are so busy complaining about the government that they forget all that it does provided. The pledge (and the anthem for that matter) reminds us to take a moment to be grateful. There are worse places out there even as there is room for growth in the US.

If you don't want your kids to say it don't send them to a government funded school. Can't afford that, well them maybe you should be grateful and have some allegiance to the government because your kids get any education at all.

Citizens should be active parents in this regard, discus with children what the pledge means. Talk about the responsibility of thinking about your government critically when it is developmentally appropriate. It is the job of a parent to help their child through these things.

In a government that is supposedly for the people and by the people it is a responsibility to think about and analyze that government. How is that not part of the allegiance being pledged.

As for the anthem, you have the right to observe or not, but the responsibility to allow others to observe (or abstain) in their way too. I wish the fore fathers had thought to write a piece in the preamble about how rights and responsibilities go together.


Well that turned into a bit of a rant.
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I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[The Potter]

After seeing the censorship of Ron Paul in the primary election, I completely lost any faith I had in nationwide politics. I don't see the federal government being "for the people, by the people" anymore. It is just too big to be useful.

Nearly every service that people care about is handled by the state they live in.
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[The Ragin' South Asian]

*makes some inquiries about getting a class of children to call Mackay and recite the Pledge in a droning monotone*

[Mackay]

Oh no! My treason! *HISSSSSSS*
Seriously though, that would really creep me out.

[Buzzsaw]

[Mackay]

Honestly Buzz, I feel the same way about the Pledge as the anthem in that particular respect (and that one only). I can't imagine a situation, short of some kind of emergency, in which I would deliberately disrupt people who wished to recite it. That is just rude, regardless of how I feel about the pledge itself.

Maybe we should make our children recite "I pledge to not disrupt people who are participating in a national anthem or pledge of allegiance". That will teach them not to be disruptive! They might still commit treason though.

itisally, I would be in 100% agreement with your post if it didn't mention the Pledge of Allegiance at all. I agree with the values both you and Zag are mentioning, but I just don't see how making schoolchildren recite the Pledge instils them. It seems like lip service at best, and conditioning children to be nationalistic and uncritical of their government at worst.

[Buzzsaw]

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I don't know if I implied it, but I don't think anyone here has suggested disrupting an anthem. However, when someone says, "my opinion is that people should observe the anthem, but they certainly have the right not to (observe the anthem) and then someone responds to that by saying "I can do whatever I want", then that looks to me like someone just wants to stir things up, since that response makes no sense - esp since no one (that I have seen in this thread, anyway) has suggested forcing their viewpoint on anyone.

So, I guess I disagree with you, Mackay, that you should be observing the anthem. :shakes finger:


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[LordKinbote]

[Zag]

[LordKinbote]

[itisally]

Developmentally a 5 year old will have difficulty understanding abstract concepts of honor and integrity, but we teach those at first by mandating them through actions and words. As they get older they should be asked to expand beyond the words and rituals to the concepts and to think critically about what they have been told. Without some indoctrination there is no stepping stone from one developmental stage to the other. The formality of something like the pledge gives a concrete base as the scaffolding to the abstract concepts and can be used as a tool to help children become the involved members of a country we would like them to be, rather than apathetic and hopeless as so many citizens today feel.
I am really not offended by students in the classroom who chose to not recite it or parents who ask their children not to. It is their right, but you asked in what way the pledge taught and by itself it doesn’t. It requires active guidance and discussion.

I guess what I like about the pledge is that it is purposeful rather than hoping the children will somehow pick up on the impressions around them and come to a good conclusion. Passive instruction in values is sketchy at best.
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I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.

[Mackay]

itisally: Fair enough.

I still don't really agree, but your point is well argued. I think the difference is simply in the inherent level of importance we ascribe to patriotism as a positive value. My kneejerk reaction to nationalism of any kind is negative, even if it turns out to be neutral or ultimately beneficial, so it's probably just a fundamental difference in beliefs. (Down here, if someone says "Aussie pride" it's usually code for "I'm a huge racist", so that could be something to do with it.)

[The Ragin' South Asian]

[The Potter]

While I generally feel that life is fair and decent in America, the monetary system in place does seem to create economic injustice as well as perpetual debt. Such things are hard to clearly define as "injustice".

"economic fairness" is certainly not an American value. And an injustice is a lack of fairness or justice...
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Artwork | Fractals | Don't ignore your dreams; don't work too much; say what you think; cultivate friendships; be happy.

[Nsof]

@Jedo. What caused my disagreement was "you should do whatever you feel is appropriate when the anthem is played". I took this to mean that you think, for example, that people making loud noises during the anthem is ok.
Apologies if thats not the case.
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Will sell this place for beer

[Buzzsaw]