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novice
No harm. Pun intended!
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 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:52 pm Post subject: 121 |
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Do you mean tenets of belief?
Why do you need the dogma to arrive at the value system? Does the dogma have intrinsic value? |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: 122 |
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No, I mean dogma sleeps with belief. (I was on the edge of a nap, so you'll just have to forgive me.)
Looking back, I'm not sure my previous example was good. Perhaps it would be better to compare dogma to the speed of light. That is a truth from which you discern other things. Now, Zag might come in here and argue that the difference is that science will question the speed of light and perhaps find some day that this wasn't a universal truth and religion just mindlessly continues to adhere to its "truths." For Christians, I would say the difference is our tenets are the product of revelation from God, not something reasoned out. However, over time Christians perhaps come to understand the revelation in better detail.
The best example I can think of is that Jesus was God and Man. The early church councils wrestled with drawing out what exactly that means, and some people still disagree. However, it's an important claim to make because it has implications for how salvation works, the relationship of God to man, the nature of sin, etc. A small tweak in the understanding of the interplay between Jesus' divinity and humanity causes vast ripples across these other traditions.
So, I don't really know what the answer to your question is. Does a change in the speed of light affect understanding of other aspects of science? Is it important for you to arrive at other conclusions? (I've never been much good with finding appropriate metaphors, but maybe this one comes close. I'm sure further questions will help.)
_________________
Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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novice
No harm. Pun intended!
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:48 pm Post subject: 123 |
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| Does one need to believe in God to be a good Christian? |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:02 am Post subject: 124 |
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That seems like a "form and function" question. Is an object still that object if it ceases to do what it was made to do? Does it not instead become something else?
_________________
Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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jadesmar
Bad Puppy
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:34 am Post subject: 125 |
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| DejMar wrote: |
| jadesmar wrote: |
| In fact, after a certain point in their life, the only education some people get is via their weekly sermons. That is a powerful platform but it certainly isn't used to teach critical thinking. |
I will agree that the pulpit can be a powerful platform, yet I'll disagree that it isn't used to teach critical thinking. It's not always used to do so, and may even be seldom done, but it is done. I will agree with your main emphasis that one should not just simply take the word of the lecturer. God did bless us all with the ability to seek and gain wisdom and knowledge, and, with these, to discern the truths. |
I will agree to change my thesis ending to:
That is a powerful platform but, except for in extremely rare circumstance, it isn't used to teach critcal thinking. |
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jadesmar
Bad Puppy
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:06 am Post subject: 126 |
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| novice wrote: |
| Does one need to believe in God to be a good Christian? |
I think it goes like this:
One needs to believe in God to be a Christian, specifically that Jesus Christ is God. By definition.
One does not need to believe in God to be good.
One does need to believe in Christ to get into heaven, according to John 3:16.
One does not need to be good to get into heaven. |
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novice
No harm. Pun intended!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:56 am Post subject: 127 |
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| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| That seems like a "form and function" question. Is an object still that object if it ceases to do what it was made to do? Does it not instead become something else? |
I don't know what kind of question it is, but I think it's answerable.
Would someone who lives a good life according to what is considered christian values, but does not believe in God, be considered a good Christian? What is most important, believing in God, or adhering to God's teachings? |
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DejMar
(Possibly a robot)
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:09 am Post subject: 128 |
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| novice wrote: |
| Does one need to believe in God to be a good Christian? |
A Christian is a disciple of Jesus Christ, that is they believe in the doctrine and teachings of Jesus Christ as is attributed to him. Christ, himself, was not a writer thus we refer to his teachings by those recognized as had been given the authority to record them. One was his apostle and a Gospel writer, John. John wrote that Jesus is the Son of God, and that he is one with the Father (cf. John 1:1-13). Thus, by definition, as one believes in the doctrine and teachings of Jesus, one would need to believe in God. And, given that a 'good Christian' is a subset of 'Christian', the answer is "Yes, one does need to believe in God to be a good Christian.".
"Does one need to believe in God to be good?" This question is slightly different. As anything that God deems good is good, and as all things are possible with God (where they do not contradict His nature), the anwer would be that one does not need to believe in God to be good. Yet, from the doctrines and teachings of Christ, if one is good then one knows God. Thus, by definition, one does need to believe in God to be good. |
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:23 am Post subject: 129 |
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| jadesmar wrote: |
| One does need to believe in Christ to get into heaven, according to John 3:16. |
The quote does not even almost say that.
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John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. |
Are the Biblical "scholars" completely retarded? If you're going to assume that these words come from your Deity, at least take the time to read them, eh?
"Eternal Life" does not mean "heaven." Maybe the people who believeth in him but are evil will be going to hell. I would totally suggest that evil people should work hard at not believing, given your God's opinions of vengeance. If you're going to be evil, you should be shooting for NOT having eternal life.
The quote says nothing about the people who don't believeth. Possibly they are granted eternal life, too; possibly only some of them. It only says that belief guarantees eternal life, and says nothing about what non-belief gets you.
The first thing you learn in philosophy class: "p implies q" does NOT lead to "not p implies not q." |
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: 130 |
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| DejMar wrote: |
| Yet, from the doctrines and teachings of Christ, if one is good then one knows God. Thus, by definition, one does need to believe in God to be good. |
I believe that you're saying that by being good, one will inevitably come to believe in God. At least you're not making a logical inconsistency. You are saying, however, that anyone who doesn't believe must not be good.
Personally, I think I'm a good person. You, I guess, disagree? |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: 131 |
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| novice wrote: |
| Would someone who lives a good life according to what is considered christian values, but does not believe in God, be considered a good Christian? What is most important, believing in God, or adhering to God's teachings? |
What are "Christian values"? It seems to me there are a lot of moral people out there, but they aren't Christian. Zag himself just confessed to this.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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jadesmar
Bad Puppy
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:22 pm Post subject: 132 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| jadesmar wrote: |
| One does need to believe in Christ to get into heaven, according to John 3:16. |
The quote does not even almost say that.
| Quote: |
John 3:16 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. |
Are the Biblical "scholars" completely retarded? If you're going to assume that these words come from your Deity, at least take the time to read them, eh? |
I'm not actually a Biblical scholar. You caught me.
I did preface with "I think it goes like this".
I would appreciate not being called totally retarded. Thanks. |
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:59 pm Post subject: 133 |
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| jadesmar wrote: |
I would appreciate not being called totally retarded. Thanks. |
LOL. Sorry. I really wasn't referring to you. I was referring to all the people to whom you were listening, who have made the same claim that you made, and I totally agree that the interpretation that you quoted is the most common one that is made. After all, whoever wrote the wikipedia article, presumably someone who cares enough about the verse to have bothered, made the same interpretation.
It wasn't until you mentioned it that I actually looked at it with a critical eye. |
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jadesmar
Bad Puppy
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:50 pm Post subject: 134 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| jadesmar wrote: |
I would appreciate not being called totally retarded. Thanks. |
LOL. Sorry. I really wasn't referring to you. I was referring to all the people to whom you were listening, who have made the same claim that you made, and I totally agree that the interpretation that you quoted is the most common one that is made. After all, whoever wrote the wikipedia article, presumably someone who cares enough about the verse to have bothered, made the same interpretation.
It wasn't until you mentioned it that I actually looked at it with a critical eye. |
Aha. So, my grade 12 religion teacher was retarded. That's Ok. I think I called him worse at the time.
To contrast Jedo's point:
It seems to me that there are a lot of Christian people out there who aren't good. |
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