Clint Eastwood Mafia Game Over - Town Wins

[Dragon Phoenix]

[raekuul]

[Dragon Phoenix]

Like I said before, because it was a valid (lurker) target for day one. Scum typically look for valid bandwagons to join on the first day or two, because they make sense and their vote will not be questioned as much.
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My photography:
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[Sniklac16]

[Dragon Phoenix]

esme - latest post 13 November
leonidas - latest post with content 9 November (posted an I'm here yesterday)
undercover monk - latest post 16 November (real life issues)
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My photography:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/artrock2006/

[Leonidas]

Re-read the thread and found this in the discussion between Jedo and Garou_Kinfolk regarding MNOWAX:

[Sniklac16]

Prods were sent to just esme and Undercover Monk since Leonidas has posted. If I don't get a response within the next 3 days I will get a replacement.
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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

[spyrl]

[Garou_Kinfolk]

[Garou_Kinfolk]

I had forgot to mention one important thing about Jedo's feeling about liml in the last Secret Theme Game. Jedo was the Godfather.
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Most posts made from my phone.

[Undercover Monk]

well I was about to request that I be replaced but if esme has to be replaced you guys will just have to deal with my lurkieness this game sorry. If someone would be kind enough summarise the major arguments of the day so I dont have to go in-depth re-read of page 11 I will try to post more often.
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The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Garou_Kinfolk]

@Monk: Here's a semi-"Readers Digest" version.

PAGE 8
Sniklac declares day.
18 minutes later Jedo guesses the theme and gains immunity.
Jedo posts various bits of information, then votes for me for "helping" MNO.
Jadesmar replaces T.G.C.
I answer Jedos accusations a few posts later.
Sentran votes for me because I voted for Jedo after MNO did.
I post that what I believe is evidence that Sentran is scum and I vote him.

PAGE 9
Jedo and I begin going back and forth about my asking the mod to prod MNO.
Sentran ignores my evidence against him and asks for anyone to bring evidence against me if they can.
Lots of people are lurking.
I post the interaction data I have on Zag.
I call Sentran on his brush off of my accusations against him, he still brushes it off.
I ask Jedo how I "helped MNO" and he responds.
I post the interaction data I have on myself that Sentran asks for.
Raearia and Sentran ask about my interaction charts.
People start to discuss putting pressure on lurkers to get them to participate.
Jedo and 3iff both vote Esme.
Raekuul asks Jedo and 3iff why Esme in particular.
Jedo refuses to answer. 3iff replies that there's no particular reason.
I post an example of how I make my interaction charts using a recent post.
I respond to Jedo about his post on how I "helped" MNO. I also show pieces of 3iff and Jedo ties.
Sentran questions my interaction charts using incorrect logic.
I respond to Sentran and correct his logic.

PAGE 10
D.P. votes for Esme.
Raekuul responds to Jedo not responding to his question about voting Esme.
Sentran unvotes me, but still wants me lynched.
Spyrl votes Leo.
Sentran and D.P. begin to discuss D.P.s choice of voting Esme.
Spyrl calls D.P.s logic on voting Esme flawed.
Jadesmar asks where a scum might have been on the MNO lunch.
Raekuul joins that conversation with Jadesmar and Spyrl.
D.P. gives up on Sentran and asks for the mod to prod the lurkers.
Leo does an "I'm here" post.
Raearia joins in and calls D.P.s logic against Esme flawed.

PAGE 11
D.P. explains his votes (day 1 and 2) on Esme.
Raekuul questions part of this new explanation.
Leo votes me based on the prod I asked for on MNO during day 1. References a post of Jedos from just after the prod request.
My post 409 has every notable reference to the MNO prod so that everyone can look at it. At the end I show why I call Jedo's "gut vote" for me invalid.
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Most posts made from my phone.

[Garou_Kinfolk]

I think that is most everything. If someone has a different perspective or I missed something, I'm sure I'll hear about it.
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Most posts made from my phone.

[jadesmar]

[3iff]

Long weekends are tough when I have to pick up three days worth of mafia chat.

Garou: One thing worth mentioning as you keep referring to it. I picked up on your public request to the mod about prodding the lurkers (some time ago) as worthy to raise at that time, to see what sort of 'reason' you might give for doing it that way. Although you seemed a bit defensive, I don't really see anything more in the incident. I didn't see it as a defence of MNO.

Glad to see some of the quieter players popping into the forum. More very soon.

[esme]

Given the fact that you have counted my few posts, one would think that you would have had the time to actually read them.

This would tell you both that I was the first to accuse scum MNOWAX after his blunder and that I started to lurk because I waited for a vote-count. I don't appreciate that our mod has time to prod me, but no time for reasonably frequent vote-counts.

Now, I won't comment on the game further until I have had time to make my own digest for myself.
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Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

[Jedo the Jedi]

I was being intentionally silent to let the lurkers and less vocal players have some say, but I was also doing some end-of-semester work this weekend. I will have a post up later tonight.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[3iff]

[Jedo the Jedi]

Just a brief post before I go back.

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Sentran]

[Garou_Kinfolk]

To properly respond to various posts, I will need to use a computer. Until then don't expect much from me.

One last thing. If anyone would like to also do a post summarizing what's happened for Monk so there are more then one perspective. I would also like to see what others have perceived so far.
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Most posts made from my phone.

[jadesmar]

[Raearia]

Esme I get that you don't appreciate that the mod isn't running HIS game the way YOU feel is appropriate however I don't appreciate trying to play a mafia game where people feel its ok to lurk through and not participate.

As was already stated you were not in fact the first to go after MNO. Even after vote counts were posted you failed to participate in the actual conversations.

Here are all of your posts:

Post 7

[spyrl]

[Jedo the Jedi]

Maybe you should go read True Blood again. My second post of the game is me starting in on bgg, and it's at least four days before you start on bgg. Hell, it's two days before your second post of the game. A quick ISO shows that.

As for Sopranos' Mafia, I had a read on Amb when (almost) nobody else suspected him, and again it started as this tiny suspicion. Normally what happens with these reads is that something sparks it, then when I press the assault, more things come up. Anyway, if you want to check this game you can start at post 384.

Conclusion: I think cold, hard logical facts are better, but my gut has been more accurate. The facts are more likely to sway other town members, and there are generally more of them to support the case. As I described my gut reads above, they are an intuition (a sixth sense, if you will) which are good, but they don't come along all the time. I think that's what I had with MNO, and I think that's likely with Garou. I'm not sure I can say much more about this.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[spyrl]

[Jedo the Jedi]

Now you're just trying too hard, spyrl. Regardless of your coloring of the situation, bgg was scum, I was town, and I had no other information than the posts of the game. It's a catch, and even more, it is a catch which was obviously more based on "gut" than on facts. I believe that's the argument we are having. Plus, I notice you chose not to respond to the information about Sopranos' Mafia which was 380+ posts into the game. Care to disparage that one too?

It's also interesting that you don't rebut that it wasn't you who started the thing on bgg. Your argument seems pretty flimsy now.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[raekuul]

Wow, I forgot that I was in True Blood.

In Jedo's defense(?), this is not the first time he's apparently flip-flopped on a his position between games.

[raekuul]

"on a his position"...

Clearly, I should not be allowed to English after bedtime.

[raekuul]

I need to stop thinking of more to say after leaving the keyboard.

For the curious, Jedo was town in both games.

[Dragon Phoenix]

Given the recent developments, I am more happy than ever with my vote on esme.
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My photography:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/artrock2006/

[spyrl]

The bgg lynch was not due to your RVS post. It was due to him digging himself into a very deep hole with his responses to the "we" argument. The first quasi bandwagon on him was dying off. Then the "we" argument got started and he went off the deep end in his replies. And, furthermore, your RVS post is not a "gut read" post! Nowhere in your post is there a reference to "gut reads," instinct, or even feelings. Your post about bgg was completely factual. RVS, but factual. That post did not invalidate the fact that I started the argument that got him lynched. Perhaps I should have worded it to make it clear what I had meant:

[esme]

[Jedo the Jedi]

[Garou_Kinfolk]

I feel I should post my definition of what a gut read is to me since I too am calling Jedos "gut read" invalid.

To me a gut read is a feeling. I look at a post and say "I don't know what it is, but this feels off/scummy." or "This feels like a town post to me."

What Jedo has described is more of "I saw this. It looked scummy so I followed it and saw more." That's not a "gut read" to me. Following bread crumbs is the best way I can describe it.

And no. I haven't gotten to a computer to reply to everything I want to yet.
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Most posts made from my phone.

[Sentran]

Oh for Pete's sake! I'm starting to see why using meta is not a good idea. Although I'm an advocate of using whatever we can to benefit the town and catch scum, this thread appears to be devolving into a "he said, she said" about old games and what constitutes a gut read. I agree that Jedo looks scummy, but beating that dead horse does us no good today, due to his immunity. Let's get back on track with other potential lynch candidates! I.E. myself, esme, Dragon Phoenix, Garou Kinfolk... pretty much anybody BUT Jedo. We can revisit this argument tomorrow, when there's a hope to get something out of it (like lynching Jedo).
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Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[spyrl]

Jedo, I am finished debating with you on things not directly related to this game in which we are not going to see eye to eye. Your interpretation of the events for that game are duly noted, as are your opinions of the Sopranos game with Amb. With both Amb and MNO it was never just a case where people were "lining up to vote for" them, obviously. What you are being deliberately obtuse about is the whole point of what I had said. Both Amb and MNO have wild play styles which make it like nailing jello to a tree to pinpoint them down, so catching them as scum is more of luck than skill - because people know their play style is unpredictable as both scum and town. As such, a lynch of Amb, as I said before, is "not that great" just like I don't consider the lynch of a scum MNO in this game (or others) to be that great, as the knowledge that we had caught a scum can only be vindicated post-lynch when we know what alignment they were.

Finally, you've, yet again, missed the whole main point of the "gut read" debate. In all of your games you have never voted using "your gut" prior to this game, which is why when you used the phrase, "distrust my gut with you" to justify your vote it stuck out. In both the bgg and the Amb examples, you did not use any phrasing similar, instead, used your normal, logical presentation. You keep returning to things like a "gut read is picking up on a tiny detail which triggers it" as if that will change the facts that you have never cast a vote using the phrasing of "my gut" prior to this game. The fact that you have continued to be so overly sensitive to this reminds me a lot of bggs reaction to the "we" debate, and you are rising in my scum list.

To be clear, my definition of a gut read is quite simple , you state something with the word "gut" in it, like: "my gut tells me X" or "I'm going to have to vote X with my gut" or "I"m going to go with my gut and vote X."
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"And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five? A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head." Terry Pratchett, Maskerade
Discworld Mafia is here!

[Jedo the Jedi]

Fine. We can agree to disagree on those things. My issue is still with the "gut read" thing. What you are saying is that something in the post(s) does spark something with you, and you can't necessarily say what it is. What I'm saying is that the same thing happens to me, but I go a step beyond to analyze what it is that struck me before I say anything. Even doing that though, when I call it a "gut read," the fact is whatever I've come up with as defining that striking thing is still inconsequential.

Anyway, esme, why do you continue not posting any content? The least you could do is respond to the accusations against you. I think the principle is if you are town, you want to convince us you are town, especially since the only reason most of us are voting you right now is because of your lurker status. So either you come in here and work to convince us you are town and we move along to other things, or your response is to ignore what is being said and we interpret that to mean you are indeed scum.
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Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Raearia]

I am personally gonna give Esme until the end of the weekend to hopefully read through the thread and respond. At that point I am just gonna go back over the thread and make my decision to vote for her or not.
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10289 is the end!