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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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 Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:22 pm Post subject: 1 |
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In English versions of the Bible, certain archaic English words are commonly used. "Thou shalt not speaketh in a modern tongue". Of course, one could explain this from the Bible being translated to English back when those words weren't so archaic. Does anyone know if anything like this is done with the Bible translated to other languages?
( I think using old dialects deceives many people in to being more trusting of the authenticity of the Bible. By "deceive", I don't mean to say the Bible isn't authentic, but that the archaic language isn't at all a good reason to believe so. ) |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:33 pm Post subject: 2 |
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As one who frequently translates the Bible from Greek, certain "archaic" words are used because they more closely match the meaning of the Greek or Hebrew word. This is especially difficult since we often don't have words which correspond with the Greek. An added difficulty is that words take on new meanings down through time, so you have to find a word which people will understand but that won't necessarily connote something unintended.
However, I think most newer translations dispense with a lot of archaic language. What words in particular do you have in mind?
(I can't speak to your question about other languages.)
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Scurra
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:39 am Post subject: 3 |
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I believe that Luther's monumental translation of the Bible into German holds much the same status in Germany* as the "Authorised" (or Wycliffe's) version does in the English speaking world, and it too uses what might be described as archaic language. But neither of those versions are really used today; I'd be surprised if you could find such usage in any modern versions of the Bible - outside of the KJV can you give any citations of "archaic" language? (To be honest, I think it's the chapter and verse format of the Bible which lends it more of an air of "authenticity" as you put it, rather than the language; I've got a couple of brilliant translations that dispense with that and it is quite unsettling to someone used to the traditional format.)
*in the Protestant church, at least. Obviously the Catholics look a bit askance at Luther, even today. 
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:37 am Post subject: 4 |
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The Hebrew bible is the same. In fact it is written in what is called Biblical Hebrew. Its the same letters, semitic roots and most grammar as today. It is mostly readable but practice helps. (A small part of it is even in Aramaic).
I remember in bible class* everyone used a version where on one page you have the original text and on the other page, a down-to-earth "translation" and interpretations.
*mandatory in IL schools starting 2nd grade and can be taken based on your religious affiliation. i.e. Muslims learn about Koran. Same for Christians and Druze.
I have looked now at the Hebrew version of the New Testament I have. It is translated with what I'd call refined Hebrew. It does not suffer the "thou-ness" but this is most certainly because it was printed in 1995 and the translator did not bother with that form of language.
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:57 am Post subject: 5 |
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| Religious-book-of-your-choice class is mandatory? Seriously? Do the atheists just get an extra science class? (I'd be totally ok with that!) |
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:02 am Post subject: 6 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| Religious-book-of-your-choice class is mandatory? Seriously? Do the atheists just get an extra science class? (I'd be totally ok with that!) |
I also am curious about this mandatory class. Apparently no atheists live in Illinois.
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Courk*
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:49 pm Post subject: 7 |
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| Do you have to learn based on your religion? I think it'd be interesting to learn about the Koran and others. |
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:33 pm Post subject: 8 |
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| Jedo the Jedi wrote: |
| Zag wrote: |
| Religious-book-of-your-choice class is mandatory? Seriously? Do the atheists just get an extra science class? (I'd be totally ok with that!) |
I also am curious about this mandatory class. |
I was too as my mom likes to remind me every once in a while. When I was in high school she was called to the principal's office for a talk. Not a seldom occurrence. This time the subject at hand was Bible class and my refusal to continue studying bible anymore. My convincing argument: it's obviously false. I said to the principle that I'll write this to the minister of education and tell him to cancel bible class based on that argument. My mom was more amused by this than anything else - at least this time I didn't break anything or myself.
For obvious reasons the principle was not impressed I was forced to be in class or be kicked out of school. At 12th grade I actually had to study it so I'll have a chance to pass the final test and get the high school diploma.
Today I still disagree with it being a mandatory class but I better understand why it is so: The study of the bible is part of the jewish religious practice. One of the things that kept jews together in the diaspora for about 2000 years was the study of the bible. It stands to reason that jews would keep to that.
Everyone in Israel is classified by their religion (meaning the government keeps track of this like they do for your address and ID number) and you cannot choose Atheism as a classification. So unfortunately, no science/other class to replace bible. You are born into a religion and you can convert assuming the new religious order accepts you and you register this with the government. Scary, I know but bear in mind in some countries you cannot convert at all.
| Courk* wrote: |
| Do you have to learn based on your religion? I think it'd be interesting to learn about the Koran and others. |
Yes and I agree with you but I think most of the population would be against generalizing the bible/koran/etc studies to religious studies where you learn about all other religions. The immediate reaction that comes to mind is: "Am I, an X, going to send my kid to study religion Y. No way."). Too much enmity.
No, I did not write to the minister.
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:54 pm Post subject: 9 |
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haha! IL = Israel, not Illinois. Now it makes more sense. 
| Aside wrote: |
| I'm not sure if this is creepy or brilliant, but the ad currently showing as I write this post is "Learn Hebrew in 10 Days." |
I assume that there are is relatively small number of religions from which you must choose your affiliation? Do they include Wicca? worship of Zeus? etc.? How hard would it be to get a "Church of Rational Thought" established for which the Scientific Method is the only thing that is sacred?
BTW, I think that Courk was not saying she wanted an "All" selection that studies all the religions, but that she wanted to be able to choose which class she attends of the existing ones. |
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:52 pm Post subject: 10 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| haha! IL = Israel, not Illinois. Now it makes more sense. |
Sorry. I should have thought about this given the forum's demographics.
| Zag wrote: |
| I assume that there are is relatively small number of religions from which you must choose your affiliation? Do they include Wicca? worship of Zeus? etc.? How hard would it be to get a "Church of Rational Thought" established for which the Scientific Method is the only thing that is sacred? |
Only the five religions I mentioned above are formally recognized and supported by the government in terms of funding/education/marriages/etc.
You can still establish the "Church of Rational Thought" and practice it but you will not get any support from the government.
| Zag wrote: |
| BTW, I think that Courk was not saying she wanted an "All" selection that studies all the religions, but that she wanted to be able to choose which class she attends of the existing ones. |
Parents choose to which school they send their kids. The critical majority of schools only serve one segment of the population and therefore offer only one choice. e.g. if you live in a city where majority of the population is Arab you will only find schools that teach Christianity or Islam. If you register to such a school you will be taught in Arabic (a formal language) and in bible class you will learn about your respective religion. Few schools offer a mixed form of studying (many times as an ideological statement) and there the students can choose the specific religious studies.
So its possible to choose the religion you study by selecting the school you go to but this has bigger ramifications than just what religion you will study at school. For example: the language spoken at school and other fields of studies which also differ.
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:54 pm Post subject: 11 |
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It freaks me out to have religion and government so intertwined, though I do understand that this is a uniquely American attitude. (The so-called Americans who want to erase the separation freak me out far more, however.)
Do you know whether visitors to Israel have to declare a religion in order to get a visa? Or is it only citizens who must declare?
Are there other legal issues based on your declared religion? For instance, I know that in some of the more progressive Islamic countries they have places where people (only foreigners, presumably) can legally purchase alcohol, but it is illegal for Muslims to do so. |
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:49 pm Post subject: 12 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| It freaks me out to have religion and government so intertwined |
Me too. Its very bad IMO.
| Zag wrote: |
| though I do understand that this is a uniquely American attitude. |
I dont think it is. I think most of the western world countries have a very clear separation between state and religion.
| Zag wrote: |
| Do you know whether visitors to Israel have to declare a religion in order to get a visa? Or is it only citizens who must declare? |
Visitors do not need to declare their religion.
| Zag wrote: |
| Are there other legal issues based on your declared religion? For instance, I know that in some of the more progressive Islamic countries they have places where people (only foreigners, presumably) can legally purchase alcohol, but it is illegal for Muslims to do so. |
No legal implications but there are some practical limitations due to one's religion. This is usually happens in:
- Employment in the security forces. For example there is a very low chance a Muslim would be considered for being a mossad agent. Also Israeli Arabs (Muslims or Christians) do not have mandatory army service.
- Religious institutions and practice. For example: Jews are almost always refused entry, by the police, to Temple Mount where Al Aqsa Mosque is located. This is done to prevent potential conflicts between Muslim worshipers and Jewish worshipers. Sometimes when the police thinks there are going to be riots by the Muslims (e.g. the Nakba day) its the other way round and Israel does not permit entry to pray at the mosque to anyone who is less than 40 or is otherwise considered a potential security threat.
In these cases its usually the politics that cause the differences between how different religious people are treated rather than their religion. The agreement/correlation between political agenda and religions affiliation is high enough that what causes the differences is is being confused many times.
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Jedo the Jedi
Paragon in Training
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:00 am Post subject: 13 |
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I'm curious why extro never came back in here to follow up. Were the answers not what he wanted?
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Paragon Tally: 19 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:22 am Post subject: 14 |
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| I don't know. |
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