WSU IS&T 1100 Week 8-9

[Cheese]

The interesting thing about what Lt. Layton is doing is that he is arresting people for their thoughts. The big question is now: who decides that what you are thinking is a crime? If any of you have read 1984 by George Orwell, you know about "thoughtcrime." In this book, to simply think thoughts that go against "the system" and "big brother" is punishable by everything from torture to forced labor to death. I certainly agree that thinking about having sex with a minor is a harmful thing and constitutes a crime, but we must me careful when we start this kind of thing. Suppose the government decided that thinking about religion is illegal because some religions discriminate. I would rather have every thought, including sex with a minor, be legal that have it go to that point. That seems to be the logic behind the supreme court's decision in letting cartoon child porn be legal. They don't want to make the laws too restrictive to our freedoms, and I support that concept. I don't agree with the decision, but if that's the price for free thought, I'll pay it.

~Grabetto
This cheese is produced by Yarra Valley Cheese. It is modern, farmhouse, thimble-like cheese made from goat's milk. The cheese has a different taste depending on age. When young, it has a taste of Brazil nut ice cream, with age it becomes very hard and flaky in texture.

[TGR]

I really enjoyed Lt. Laytons lecture. I do agree with what he is doing. Everyone just sit there and talks about the rights of the adult. But what about the rights of the children? They are only being protected by the police. Childrens rights have to be protected. As for the idea that they are punishing guys for thinking about doing something bad. As I see it they are not be charged with sex abuse of a child they are only being chared with soliciting a child for sex. They are two different things. True he didn't have sex with the child. But he did make references to sex and then agreed to meet this child somewhere. There is where he committed the crime. No one charged him with anything he didn't commit. If he did show up to the meeting place like lt. Layton said most of the time they don't track them down and get them. They just monitor their online activites. Until they break a law. But these guys are just sick anyway. I don't think that anyones rights are being taken I just think that childrens rights are being protected. I aslo think that we all have rights until we imepede on the rights of others. that is where our rights should stop.

[This message has been edited by TGR (edited 03-13-2003 07:36 PM).]

[Kanchaser]

I just wanted to comment on the class we had tuesday about the police arresing people for thinking of crimes with children. I totally agree with the police and I am thankful for them doing what they are doing. I just thought about what he said about the courts and the defense lawyers arguing that they haven't done any act yet and they shouldn't be punished. I just ask the question, So what about the kids/victims. Where is their say in this whole thing. Why do we have to wait for one of them to be hurt and scared mentally before we punish someone. I don't think a person will ever get over that type of a thing.

[Gelit]

How bout it teach? Are ya gonna post that site of convicted folks? I'm sooooo curious.

[Arsenalrocks]

I enjoyed last class. It was very informational on things that you don't really hear about. Oh and Marion, where is the web pages with the sex offenders??? That sounds interesting. I might have a couple of friends on there.

[TGR]

Since all of you wanted it here it is

http://www.udc.state.ut.us/asp-bin/sexoffendersearchform.asp

Read all the rules then click on the button at the bottom it will ask for some information name and zip code and then it pops it all up for you. =Þ enjoy!

[catman]

I thoroughly enjoyed the class on wednesday. It was very informing and interesting. I for one am glad that there are people like Lt. Layton out there tracking down and getting those kind of people. I do not agree with the Supreme Court's ruling. If there is an issue that enough people agree on, why not make it standard? There is no reason for that kind of information to be available that easy. There is enough garbage in the world. We have restrictions on every other way to get porn in your life, the internet has no restrictions and is it any wonder why it gets utilized so much? I'm all for having your freedom and rights, but I'm also for not having to have that crap pushed in my face all the time!

[firemeboy]

Nobody else is concerned about being arrested for something you have 'thought' and not committed?

[Chuck]

Shouldn't parents be teaching their children not to sneak off to meet strangers? Maybe they should be charged with criminal negligence for endangering their children by failing to properly instruct and supervise them.

[Cheese]

[karrots]

I like the devils advocate here.

Originally posted by firemeboy:

---

Nobody else is concerned about being arrested for something you have 'thought' and not committed?

---

Didn't Lt. Layton say that they have to have done certian things that are against the law. Like talking to a minor about that stuff. So actually they have done something wrong allready.

Although Minority Report was a little different. Most of those people had thought but not actually commited a crime yet. Like the guy going to kill his wife with the sissors at the first of the movie. He hadn't commited it yet and could have stopped. I guess John Anderton showed us that it was possible to stop what he "was supposed to do" because he had thought it.

Just my $.02

Karrots

[allstate]

I went to the sex offender site to see if any of my neighboors were on the list, sure enough, one offender lives about 6 houses up from mine. I see this guy buy things at my work often. Its worth a look to see who's in your neighborhood, you never know.

[Spanglish]

I would have to say that Minority Report is a pretty good example of this. Charging someone with something before they commit a crime.. I wonder if the penalty is worse if the police catch the person after he committed the act then when they catch him before the act. Anybody know what happens there?

[GUITARPRO#1]

Hi everyone,

I thought the lecture was very interesting. He made it very clear that the offenders had to do certain things/actions to be arrested. They are not simply arresting them for their thoughts. The offender has to carry out certain actions. He said they WILL go through with it. They are predators and hit on so many under-cover cops. They set a meeting place and time up and they come to the meeting place to go through with it. This is premeditated. Just like premeditated murder, do we have to wait for the hired hitman to pull the trigger to arrest them. They have been hired and they are going to carry it out. They have the gun in their hand and the scope on their victim. Just think about it.

[Spanglish]

So does that mean the person is charged with premeditated rape of a minor?

[Fatex]

has any one found any sites of "vigilantes in cyberspace" you know people looking the people that go after little kids and brain wash them into meeting them

[princesspony]

well even if layton is arresting people for just their thoughts...i like it. but it's a little bit more than just thinking it up...they arrest them at the "meeting Place." and me personally, that right there is beyond thought...the person obviously was getting ready to act on his intentions...we arrest people for attempted stuff all the time...why should this be any different, especially when the children are our future...blah blah blah..i don't see how anyone could put a price on that.
but i'm sure someone has...kids for sale get them while they're hot...thinking about can't possibly be enough..come act out your wildest fantasy then get thrown in jail... come on--you know it's worth it...you get to actually do something for getting arrested..
yup..i can see it now...

[Kerioth]

Fatex: Here's a site I found. Run by white hat hackers, fighting child porn sites.

http://condemned.org/

Concerning the actions of the police in the matters and affairs of criminal thoughts, I highly approve of the actions taken upon those coercing young children into fulfilling perverted desires. If a person goes far enough to actually meet the child then an action has been taken and many children have probably been saved the trauma of sexual abuse.

[Chuck]

What if the alleged child molestor was perceptive enough to be able to tell that the person claiming to be 13 years old was actually an adult? No acting job is perfect and the guy might be a lot smarter than the cop. He's also very curious and pushes for the meeting to find out what's going on. Should he be arrested for the police's failure to fool him? It might be stupid for him to show up for the meeting but that's not a crime.

[Beebs]

I liked the presentation by Lt. Layton. I think that it is good that there are people that get rid of some of the sickos out there before they rape kids.

[allstate]

I would like to know how many times the cops have arrived at the meeting place of an "would be sex offender" and find that the person really is 13 or the age he said he was, how many times real kids show up to meet other kids.

[GUITARPRO#1]

He said most of the time they lie about their age. No matter what their age the child is under age and that makes it wrong.

[Chuck]

What child? The guy was talking to an adult cop.

[Isolder74]

I support what Lt. Layton is doing. The fact that they only arrest people who come to meat what they thought was a 13 year old makes even better. Remember, he said the cops never try to talk them into coming to meet them they let them invite them to meet them. One thing Layton said was he has rarely caught someone who hasn't done something like this before.

[Cheese]

I'm glad that Lt. Layton might be comming back to present again. So long as we don't have any more speakers like that hacker guy, I'll be happy (its hard to enjoy a "circular lecture").

Seriously though, I've told a few people about that lecture, and even had someone ask me if he was coming back so he could listen as well.

How bout it fireme? What's the chances of a rerun?

~Gorgonzola
Gorgonzola is a traditional, creamery and co-operative, blue cheese. The greenish-blue penicillin mould imparts a sharp, spicy flavor and provides an excellent contrast to the rich, creamy cheese. Gorgonzola is made in the northern Italian village, according to which the cheese has its name, either from unpasteurized or pasteurized milk to which the mould is added. At about four weeks the cheeses are pierced with thick needles to encourage the spread of the mould. Gorgonzola ripens in three to six months. The cheese is usually wrapped in foil to keep it moist. Its color ranges from white to straw-yellow with an unmistakable marbled green or bluish-green mould. The taste ranges from mild to sharp, depending on age. Gorgonzola is also excellent in salads and dips.

[firemeboy]

I probably won't bring him back to class this semester, I don't think he has a whole lot of 'new information'. However, he mentioned to one of the classes that the government agency that pays his salary wants him out doing what he was doing in class. If you want to hear him again you can invite him to a neighborhood meeting, scout function, church function, etc. He has a slide presnetation (T TH class saw it), that runs about 1 hour and 45 minutes. It was very good.

I'm not sure how to contact him, but I'm sure somebody out there could do it with a google search.

[Spanglish]

Hey all, once again I grow bored with the current conversation, or lack thereof so I propose another topic. With the war going on, I am curious if there are any anti-war persons in the class and why it is that they think that way... So lets hear it, I am really curious. Its funny, I am definately not anti war but the term pro-war doesnt apply either, I think that the majority of us who support the war would agree that we don't look forward to war, we aren't blood-thirsty or anything, we want justice. Like I said, I am not pro-war, but I dont enjoy seeing people protesting the war when they are reaping the benefits of the USA. I guess you could say that I am anti-anti-war. That about sums it up... What do the rest of you think?

[kys]

Spanglish, sorry I'm not a anti-war person, but I like the topic that you've brought up. Of course I want peace and everything, but sometimes to get peace, we have to go to war. I just hope that there won't be alot of bloodsehd, but I know we can't always avoid that. I talked about this for awhile with some people at my work, and we agreed that the war seems a little to easy and that something bad is going to happen. I feel like the people in Iraq are leading us into Baghdad. If we could only get some of the other countries to help us out more. Other countries don't really seem to know the bad that Saddam has been doing and they're not helping us fight. But as far as being anti-war, sorry I'm not.

[Beartalon]

For For/Against War threads, check out many threads in the Off Topic section. You can see what the regular GL members have to say. Just remember to keep an open mind to the member's world views. We represent several countries and viewpoints are considerably different, even within each country.

[Spanglish]

Hey kys, don't be sorry for supporting your country, I am definately not. GO USA!!

[Allaround1]

On getting ahold of Layton, he might still teach at Fremont High, if you call and ask for him they can probably set you up with him. Or you if he doesnt work there anymore ask for Craeger, he can tell you how to get ahold of him!

[shining gundam]

I am totally against this war. I think President Bush really has no reasons for startng this war other than maybe getting people to focus on it rather than the WEAK economy back home. Right now I think North Korea is a much bigger threat to the US and the rest of the world because they actually have nuclear weapons. I also think that maybe this war is kind of personal for Bush maybe he feels like he has to oust Saddam because his father didn't and lost the next election. Anyone remember Osama bin Laden? He is still out there somewhere. President Bush promised he would find him and its been how many months? Maybe Bush is trying to redirect our attentions to help in this next election. Which is really a shame because I think the Presidents focus right now should be on helping our economy.
Also I am really, really, really, (I think you get it now!) sick and tired of people saying that anybody against the war is anti-american. Thats just bs. How can any connection between the two be made? I disagree with us fighting this "war", but at the same I do support our troops who don't have a choice in the matter. Their job is to protect this country and I am grateful that they can. I am just not sure that removing Saddam from power will better protect the US. In this country we have the right to freedom of speech and just because you disagree with something our leaders say it doesn't make you anti-american.
Also I would like to hear some thoughts from my fellow classmates about the Bowling for Columbine's directors speech at the Oscars. The one about us living in a ficticious time, etc. Just curious.

[catman]

I for one am in total support of the war. As we have learned throughout history horrific dictators have a devastating effect on the world. Was is in our best interest to atack Hitler, he never did anything to us it was only Japan. Now Hussein and Bin Laden have actually done something and people still can't get behind the support of our country. This is the best country in the world and we have the most freedoms of anyone, but with that feedom comes a price, we must defend it. I won't lie, it angers me to see anti-war protest, but that's their right. However if we would come together and support our country and freedoms and troops, terrorists would then fear us! Out with the bad and in with the good! GO TROOPS, GO PRESIDENT, GO USA!!!

[JoBlack]

Arresting people for there actions. I am glad that there are jobs like what lt.Layton has. Going and trying to find the very people that make it so we can't trust this society. I think no parent has to go through what the smart family went through. Lt.Layton talked about how these sex affenders are professionals in playing mind games with the kids. And these kids at first would say no but they don't understand that they have been given a hood with bate on it and he pulls back very slowly until....he letteraly has them in their hands. Look at the elizabeth smart case. I have no doubt that she was totaly brain washed and was also physically abused. Why do people do this? where does there desire come from? How can we help to keep this happing right in our own hoods.

[Gelit]

I don't think President Bush is just out looking for revenge for his father's sake. He gave ample time to Sudam & Fam to knock it the crap off. He has plead, warned & now is acting. A far greater step than many others would dare to do. I support the decisions of this countries leaders. Fact of the matter is... WE ARE AT WAR. Any bad mouthing or protesting at this point only adds chaos to the whole situation.

[Beebs]

I would totally have to agree with you Gelit. You made a really good point. People that are very outspoken with the war do get their opinions out but it doesn't actually change the fact that we are at war and that our president and soldiers need support.

[Frank]

I personally am against this war for greed. I admit something has to be done about sadamm but if were going to do something about terrorist nations shouldn't we target them all? Look at Isreal for example preforming terrorist acts for years and why doesnt the world do anything about them... oh yeah possibly because they are allies with america hmm weird how these things work

[Edogg]

I am one that believes that arresting the person before they commit the crime against their victim is the smart and safe thing to do. Why should we wait until after they have committed the crime to arrest them. By then, the victim has already experienced something that shouldn't have ever happened to them. I doubt that the person committing the crime will meet the child and then just leave them alone. They are going to meet them for a reason. It is a horrible crime, and the offender should be caught before the act takes place. Its the only way.

[karrots]

I am with the idea that Bush gave plenty of time for Saddam to dissarm but he chose not to. There was a good editorial cartoon in the paper one day where it had George Bush waiting and waiting it had a frame for every month then he acted. Also to go along with this ideology I have some links. These are both from Washington Post Articles.

The first talks about how long Saddam had to do some of the things he violated. The second talks about the disarmament of Germany after World War I. Yes one not two.
Permission From the Powerless
A Retrospective on Dissarmament

The one about the disarmament of Germany is very interesting.

Karrots

[chocolate]

I am not fully for the war, but do think that it is neccessary to take care of Saddam before he gets too big and more dangerous than he probably already is. He certainly has been doing a bunch of "something" in the last 10 years since we were there last. What really concerns me is that bunch of "something" is coming soon and our troops will be right in the middle of it. I do think he has the chemicals ready and will use them. He certainly won't roll over and let us walk right in. It really is too bad that he wasn't taken out last time around. We need to stand behind and support our troops and our country.