Classical Music

[Dragon Phoenix]

I know the previous thread bled to death because I kept postponing my answers to complicated questions, but let's try again. If a question is too difficult (in the sense that I need to invest too much time answering it), I'll give a condensed answer.

[Quailman]

How come Monty Python's Flying Circus, a British show chock full of British slapstick humor, chose a piece by an American composer for its theme music?

[Dragon Phoenix]

The theme is by Sousa (Liberty Bell March). There are several marches by English composers (Elgar, Walton), but I think they preferred a less well known piece to their target British audience. At least I never heard this outside MPFC.

[Duphrates]

Is there a diffence, and what is it if any, between a Symphony and a Symphonia? *

*may contain elements of stupidity

[Dragon Phoenix]

There is no clear distinction between a symphony and a sinfonia (I am not familiar with the term symphonia). It is basically up to the composer to decide what term to use for his composition.

[Quailman]

What's the plural of Opera? The singular?

[Dragon Phoenix]

I think you're confusing this with the Latin thread.

[Antrax]

Is it true Classical Music is based on mathematical formulae? Can you write a computer to write classical music?
Antrax

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"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[Dragon Phoenix]

No and no. Next?

Seriously, there is some mathematics involved obviously. The notes have a distinct and defined length (1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 etc), and are obviously mathematically connected via their wavelengths.

Also, about one hundred years ago Schoenberg introduced the twelve-tone system, in which every single tone had to be played once before the first could be played again.

John Cage experimented with scores based on chance.

All in all though, I don't think you would be able to have a computer programme compose something that someone knowledegeable in classical music would mistake for a composition by one of the greats. Thta's where that undefined quantity known as genius comes in.

[Antrax]

I should hope so.. thing is, I remember from when I studied piano there are types of chords. I don't remember the names, but one of them is marked with a capital D, and the other with a capital A? And the A completes the D? Something like this. Have any clue what I'm talking about?
Antrax

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"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time

[Quailman]

I've heard certain pieces referred to as "tone poems". Exactly what is a tone poem? Do alternate line end in either Ti or Mi, so they rhyme?

[Dragon Phoenix]

There are plenty of chords, including A (the combination of A-Cis-E) and D (D-Fis-A). Some chords form pleasing combinations when played after one another to accompany the appropriate notes. Most of the original classical music (like Bach and Moazrt) is based on this principle, which is called tonal music. Most popular tunes also follow this type of combination. Later composers started to mix in chords which fit less natural with the others to 'spice it up' (chromatism, romantic composers like Brahms and Mahler), and even later composers like Schoenberg abandoned the idea that some chords belong together altogether (atonal music).

[Dragon Phoenix]

Quail, I'm not sure whether you're pulling my leg. I really suspect it though.

Anyway, a tone poem is a composition for orchestra which attempts to depict a story or scenery in music. There can be vague allusions of the sounds to actual sounds for instance. Or not so vague: Richard Strauss (probably the grandmaster of tone poems) at one moment in the score used a wind machine for his musical depiction of Don Quixote.

[edit]
If you want to listen to some tone poems, try the following:
Moldau (Smetana) depicting the flow of a river
Don Quixote (Strauss) depicting, well, duh
Pacific 451 (Honegger) depicting a locomotive
Pini di Roma (Respighi) depicting various Roman scenes with pines

[This message has been edited by Dragon Phoenix (edited 03-30-2004 03:21 PM).]

[Agamemnon]

Can you tell me the difference please between a Chamber Cantata and a Chamber Opera?

[mathgrant]

Name all of the different types of chords you know. I keep reading chords like Asus and E7m9, and I wish I knew what they meant.

[Hitchhiker]

I had never heard the phrase "tone poem," but I like the idea very much. Would Peter and the Wolf be considered a tone poem?

[Coyote]

Way back when the original Classical Music thread was posted, I commented that I didn't particularly like Brahms. As I recall, I used a few terms like 'ponderous' and 'heavy-handed', and actually got a few comments from a couple other Classical fans who agreed with me. You, in turn, stated that Brahms was actually one of your favorite composers, and promised to touch upon his works later in the lessons.

And it was right after that that the thread died.

So here's your second chance, DP. Can you wax rhapsodic over the works of Brahms for just a bit, and hopefully convert a few of us into fans?

[extropalopakettle]

Define "classical music". What are the earliest and most recent pieces of music you can think of that would qualify as classical?

[Dragon Phoenix]

Aga
As far as I know, a cantata is 'just' singing (with orchestra, or in this case a chamber ensemble) whereas an opera requires singing and acting (with orchestra, or in this case a chamber ensemble).

Mathgrant
That's over 50, which I'm not going to type out. I'm sure you can find this by googling.

Hitchhiker
Strictly speaking, no. The addition of a narrator, and the fragmentary nature of the composition are not in line with what is generally considered a tone poem.

Extro
There are two terms "classical music". The usual meaning is music by composers such as Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Brahms, Debussy, Stravinsky, and so on. This starts in the middle ages with ambrosian chants, gregorian chants and a composer like Hildegard von Bingen, and goes right up to contemporary composers like Maxwell Davies, Glass and Part. There are no clear boundaries, though. Artists like McCartney, Billy Joel and Joe Jackson have composed classical music in the sense that they used orchestras and typical classical music layouts (cantatas), or piano compositions like Chopin and Debussy. Also, many of today's film music is not only rooted in classsical music (Howard Shore's scores for LotR draw heavily on Prokofiev and Gliere), but can in many ways considered to be classical music as well.

Then there is the more specialized meaning, referring to music composed in the classical period (Mozart, Haydn, early Beethoven and Schubert).

Coyote
Brahms is indeed one of my favourite composers, but it is based on a part of his output, mainly:
- the four symphonies
- violin concerto and double concerto
- Hungarian dances (orchestra version)
- Ein Deutsches Requiem
- Violin, Cello and clarinet (viola) sonatas
- Horn trio and clarinet trio
- Piano quartets
- Clarinet quintet, string quintets
- String sextets

I do not care for his piano compositions, and I'm not overwhelmed either by his two piano concerto's, or for that matter his Lieder. They are indeed heavy handed.

His symphonies are great, with beautiful melodies, although admittedly neither of the four would rank in my top 10 symphonies. Ein Deutsches Requiem may well be the best Requiem I know, outranking other favourites like Mozart, Verdi, Faure and Britten. Maybe you need to speak German to fully appreciate it though.

His main claim to fame as far as I'm concerned is in his listed chamber works. Gorgeous melodies, excellently writen, no heavy handedness. Try the clarinet quintet for starters, if you're not familiar with these works. But stay away from the string quartets - like most later romantic composers (the exception being Dvorak), this medium apparently did not suit him.

[Agamemnon]

[Dragon Phoenix]

Because they could not find singers who could act as well?
Or because there was no money for decors?

[2 cents]

[Agamemnon]

Sorry old chum, just heckling

Personaly I believe that the difference between them were down to old class structures. It seems that Cantatas were performed in front of Royalty or The Catholic popes, whereas Chamber Operas were slightly lower class performances, mainly for the rich to have their own private showing. I still cannot find a reference of a Paid Cantata. Paid being money given by spectators to see said Cantata. They were usually comissioned by Kings or Popes.

[zorT Kitty]

I know 32nd notes are half the length of 16th notes. I know how they sound in a piece, but is there a definite way to count them (i.e. one-e-and-a)?

[mathgrant]

Maybe Wu-n-ee-ee-an-nd-uh-uh?

[Buzzsaw]

Not a hot seat... but since Dragon Phoenix is so knowledgeable about music, I wanted to ask....

DP, your knowledge of classical music is impressive. How did you become so well schooled in this area?

Do you play any instruments? Sing? How about Bambi?

[DP]

Kitty, sorry, no idea. I just play them quickly.

Buzz, I started to get interested in classical music around 1986 (when I was 29), partially because of the slump pop music was getting into, partially because of the rise of the CD. I figured that this was the right time to start listening to classical music. I was hooked pretty quickly and turned it into a major hobby for the next 13 years. I read a lot about it, listened to a lot of different music and built up a sizeable collection.

I play electronic organ, but not very good. Bambi does not play an instrument, but shares my passion for music. She does not appreciate all classical music I collected, but that may change with time. And we both only sing on karaoke evenings.

[Mackay]

Would you consider many of the works of Peter Sculthorpe to be tone poems? (My absolute favourite is a piano piece called "Stars", I highly recommend that everyone listen to this. Also - I can play it reeeeeeally well. [/shameless self-plug]) I only ask because I've never heard of the phrase before.

Now time for a hijack - mathgrant, it's pretty easy to learn all the chords. Like DP, I'm not going to explain them all, but if you ignore the letter from the beginning which, obviously, denotes the key, each suffix denotes a different modification that you make to the basic chord. If you learn what each means, then it's very easy to work out for yourself.

[jesternl]

This is not really a question about classical music, but it is still related I think.

Why , do you think, are there no (or hardly any) well known Dutch classical composers from the 1700's and 1800's? There are famous Dutch painters, poets, architects, philosofers and more, but hardly any composers, while there are plenty from all other European countries?

[Leonidas]

[Dragon Phoenix]

Mackay

*snogs*, uh I mean, Sculthorpe. I don't know him as well as I would like. What I've heard from him is great, and compositions like Kakadu, Earth Cry and Small Town can indeed be classified as symphonic poems. I don;t know Stars, but in general the term tone poem is reserved for an orchestral piece.

Jesternl

I think you do not need to limit this to the centuries you mention. Sweelinck, Diepenbrock and Andriessen (probably the best composers from The Netherlands) were decent masters but not more than that. It has always baffled me, given indeed the quality of painters. Perhaps it is an exposure question. The market in Holland is small, and this may have hampered development of talents. Compare with a country like Portugal, which also did not produce genuine grandmasters (Joaquin Desprez probably the best).

Leonidas
This is of course nearly impossible but OK. Ten favourite symphonies, more or less in sequence of composition:

Beethoven - Symphony 6 (Pastoral)
Schubert - Unvollendete (Unfinished) - overall #1 choice
Mendelssohn - Scottish symphony
Berlioz - Symphonie Fantastique
Dvorak - Symphony 9
Bruckner - Symphony 9
Saint Saens - Symphony 3 (with organ)
Mahler - Symphony 4
Shostakovich - Symphony 7 (Leningrad)
Gorecki - Symphony 3

which leaves some of my favourite composers of symphonies (Haydn, Brahms, Sibelius, Vaughan Williams) unmentioned.

Piano concertos.... I have heard most famous and reasonably well-known piano concertos, but in general, I do not like this type of composition very much. That said:

Bach - I'll check the BWV later, the one that inspired Ravel
Beethoven - PC3
Falla - Nights in the gardens of Spain
Grieg - PC1
Ireland - PC
Liszt - PC1
Mozart - PC20
Rachmaninov - PC2 (#1 overall)
Ravel - PC in Gmaj
Schumann - PC

You definitely can enjoy vocal music without understanding what the text is all about (one of my favourite rock songs is in mandarin). However, in classical music, songs, operas, cantatas and so on, were composed with a view to the words as well. Good examples of this are found in Schuberts Lieder, where the music often reflects the text. This does not mean you cannot enjoy the compositions if you don't get the text, but it defenitely enhances the pleasure you derive from them. In the case cited, it may lift a composition from great to a masterpiece.

[This message has been edited by Dragon Phoenix (edited 04-25-2004 05:43 AM).]

[Bicho the Inhaler]

J. S. Bach, Fugue #4 in C-sharp minor: The Well-Tempered Clavier, Book I.

Somehow this didn't seem quite appropriate for the "to what are you listening" thread yet didn't warrant its own thread. So here it goes. It's more of a comment than a question, though.

After listening to Bach's WTC a lot, I've come to the conclusion that the WTC has 47 fugues...and then Fugue #4 of Book I. It just seems wrong to put it in a group with 47 other fugues. If you don't know what the hell I'm talking about but you're curious, get a good recording of this fugue (I haven't heard very many, but I suggest Glenn Gould's piano version of it) and listen to it. Then listen to it one more time. And again. And again. Gradually, but inevitably, it will own you. You might not know what transfixes you at first, but eventually you'll realize that it's your own mortality.

We're not talking hordes of fugal devices; there are much better fugues if you want that. But fugal devices are just an intellectual amusement; they don't make or break a piece. What makes this fugue is sheer intensity, drive, and direction. It builds up bit by bit until the climax, and the energy of the climax lasts almost right until the end.

I feel chilled to the bone almost every time I hear it. They just don't make 'em like this anymore. Something cool happened the other night. I was listening to this (repeatedly) the other night and my window was slightly open, and right when the fugue starts getting really cold (around bars 67 - 73 with the chromatic descent), the wind would always pick up and start blowing my door open and rustling my wall hangings.

^{N.B.: Don't drink and post at the same time}

[chief ten beers]

What is your favorite version of Rhapsody In Blue? Which Orchestra, Conductor?

If not Blue, what is your favorite Rhapsody color?

How do you Conduct yourself when Orchestrating thee sitiation?

[Dragon Phoenix]

We have two versions on CD, although not on purpose.

The first one I bought (on purpose) was by the Cleveland Orchestra under Lorin Maazel, with Ivan Davis on piano. The second one is on a CD I bought because of the other tracks (and it was a bargain), and is by the same orchestra under Ricardo Chailly, with the Lebeque sisters on piano. I have no preference for either version.

[chief ten beers]

Okay! I'll admit I got bit carried away there. But the first question was a serious one.

[Termital]

Can you suggest any symphonies where drums, cymbals and assorted percussion steal the limelight?

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Yearn brightly

[Dragon Phoenix]

Hm.. does it have to be a symphony?

Sure, there are symphonies where the percussion plays a slightly more prominent role than usual (Brahms I, Haydn 94), but they are hardly showcases for percussions.

On the other hand, there are several concertoes for percussion and orchestra, which might be more what you're looking for.

A few suggestion from my own collection, typically with Evelyn Glennie as solist:

James MacMillan - Veni veni Emmanuel (my favourite)
Darius Milhaud - Concerto for percussion
Richard Rodney Bennett - Concerto for percussion
Joseph Schwantner - Concerto for percussion
Andrzej Panufnik, Concerto for timapni and percussion

Technically, the marimba ranks as a percussion instrument, so if you're interested in that, try the concertoes for marimba and orchestra by Rosauro or Miyoshi.

[extropalopakettle]

I don't know if it would necessarily be classical, but can you suggest a piece - I'm geussing it would involve a pipe organ - with very deep bass, and preferably also worth listening to. I want to put my subwoofer to the test with something other than Ozzy, Nugent and the like.

[Legend of Tenshi]

I know that both of these are Romantic Peices, not classical, but what the hey. Which would be more difficult to play. Revolutionary Etude of Fantasie Impromptu?

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I'm looking for a good sig, wanna help?

[Dragon Phoenix]

Extro:
I'll come back to this. I need to listen to a few that spring to mind (Bach's 565, Widor's toccata), to check whether they fit your requirements.

A good choice in the pop/rock genre would be the album Peter Gabriel playes live (1982?), especially the tracks The rhythm of the heat and San Jacinto.

Tenshi
No idea. I'm not a pianist.