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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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 Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 6:00 pm Post subject: 1 |
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Enough about esoteric chess problems. What about the game itself? I have some questions for the pros like borschevsky.
What are the most popular openings? Defenses? Why are they the most popular? What are your favorites? What is your strategic and tactical approach to play? Personally, I try to "control the center" and look for opportunities. Is this a good approach, or should one always be working on some plan that is 12 moves deep? I have difficulty seeing ahead, even just s couple moves. Is there any way that you can practice this skill, or is it just something you have or don't?
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You will respect my philosophai.
[This message has been edited by Dr. Borodog (edited 05-13-2004 02:00 PM).] |
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Vader
...zere's a fly een my zoop!
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 8:44 pm Post subject: 2 |
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Dr. Boro, these are the same questions I have. It's like you read my mind.
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Duct tape is like the force they both have a light side and a dark side and they bind the universe together.
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borschevsky
Chessnut
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 9:01 pm Post subject: 3 |
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These are complicated questions, so I'll just post some short stuff to get things started.
Originally posted by Dr. Borodog:
What are the most popular openings? Defenses? Why are they the most popular?
Well, different types of openings are popular at different levels. GMs mostly have to play openings that are objectively good, since their competition is so strong, but lots of regular players play openings because they are interesting or exciting.
Also it can be difficult to decide what constitutes an individual opening. For example, 1. g4 is Grob's Opening, and 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O is the Closed Ruy Lopez opening. The closed Ruy comes up more often than the Grob, and then there are further common branches; you can play the Chigorin variaton of the closed Ruy, etc.
So at this point I'll just say that the most common opening moves are 1. e4 and 1. d4, followed by 1. c4 and 1. Nf3. For black's possible responses there are already plenty of options, after 1. e4 black can play any of c5, d5, e5, c6, d6, e6, g6, Nf6. All of those are played regularly by both pros and amateurs.
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| What is your strategic and tactical approach to play? Personally, I try to "control the center" and look for opportunities. Is this a good approach, or should one always be working on some plan that is 12 moves deep? |
Trying to control the center is usually a good idea. Control of the center is a positional advantage, like having good pawn structure or more space than your opponent. These ideas often have to take a back seat to tactical ideas, though. Control of the center doesn't matter much if the other guy takes your queen. So the first thing to look at is always the concrete tactical stuff in a position. If there are no immediate tactics, or if you have several options for dealing with a threat, then you consider the positional factors.
In terms of having a long-term plan, you just need to have some goal in mind that you're trying to accomplish (other than "winning"  ). This basically means you need to identify something you can exploit in your opponent's position, or something to improve in your position. Maybe there's a weak pawn you can attack, maybe your king is unsafe and needs protection, whatever. It just has to come from the position itself.
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| I have difficulty seeing ahead, even just s couple moves. Is there any way that you can practice this skill, or is it just something you have or don't? |
Yes, you can definitely practice this and get better. With practice you will get faster and more accurate in calculating individual moves, but more importantly you'll learn more patterns and common themes, so you won't have to calculate though as many possible moves in a given position. |
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Vegetable
cannibal
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 12:13 am Post subject: 4 |
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| Knights or Bishops? |
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Dragon Phoenix
Judge Doom
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 5:37 am Post subject: 5 |
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It's one of the baffling things about chess that two so widely different pieces are about equally strong.
Having the pair of bishops versus two knights or knight and bishop is generally considered an advantage though, especially in relatively open situations. That does not mean that it is always bad to exchange your first bishop for a knight, as long as you can get some other small advantage in return (like a doubled pawn, or more central control).
When the pawn structures are opposing and rather rigid, the knight tends to be stronger than the bishop. Also when the player with the bishop has his pawns mainly on the same colour as the bishop, the knight tends to be stronger.
In the pawnless endgame K+2B vs K is an easy win, K+B+N vs K is a win, but you need to know how to play it, K+2N vs K is a draw.
I'm sure Borsch can add a few more lines to this. |
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mathgrant
A very tilted cell member
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 6:32 am Post subject: 6 |
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If I am to win, should I give up my king, or my pawn?
I am no good at chess. My only advice to those who want to be good at chess is: Make sure your last name is Fischer or Kasparov. |
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Dragon Phoenix
Judge Doom
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 6:50 am Post subject: 7 |
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Coming back to the openings, they can roughly be divided into two options:
[1] Both players battle for control of the centre
[2] One player surrenders the centre, in the believe that an overextended centre is a great attacking point.
Most chess openings that have been around for over 100 years fall under [1]. An example is the French defense:
Chess Board
1. e4 e6
2. d4 d5
where the following moves usually revolve around getting more pressure on the centre until either black takes d5xe4 or white closes the centre with e4-e5
The last 100 years, alternative openings falling under [2] have become popular as well. An extreme case is the Aljechin defence, of which one variration goes:
Chess Board
1. e4 Nf6
2. e5 Nd5
3. d4 d6
4. c4 Nb6
5. f4
which gives white full control of the centre, but gives black attacking opportunities on the (over)extended pawn chain. |
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borschevsky
Chessnut
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 3:57 pm Post subject: 8 |
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| Knights or Bishops? |
Bishops and knights are of about equal strength in general, but the nature of their strength is quite different. This means that they "like" different kinds of positions.
Knights are slow/short-range pieces, bishops are fast/long-range pieces.
This means that knights generally have to be near something to affect it. If you want to use a knight to attack your opponent's king, then the knight has to be near the king. For example, in the Ruy Lopez, there is often a structure something like this:
Chess Board
Even from way over there, the bishops are attacking. They don't have to be near, they just have to be "pointed" at the king. White might want to start a sacrificial attack. The bishop could just go Bxh6, but the knight has to go something like Nd2, Nf1, Ng3, Nf5, Nxh6.
Knights can jump over obstructions, bishops can't.
Now what if there are some obstructions in the way?
Chess Board
Not a perfect example, but you can see that the c1 bishop is now cut off from the kingside. This is what DP was saying about having pawns on the same colour as your bishop. White's pawns reduce the mobility of his own c1 bishop. Bishops like open positions.
Knights can reach any square on the board, bishops are stuck on one colour squares
Chess Board
This position is a draw, even with white having a extra pawn and bishop. The problem is that he has the wrong bishop, so there's no way to kick the black king out of the corner. With a dark-square bishop this would be an easy win. This is why "the two bishops" are often an advantage; they each control the squares that the other can't cover.
This is also why opposite-colour bishop endings are very "drawish".
Chess Board
White has extra pawns, but black can just block them from light squares.
Knights can't lose a tempo, bishops can
There's a tricky way to draw when your opponent has a rook pawn, like this:
Chess Board
White has no moves, so it's stalemate. So let's try giving white a knight as well.
Chess Board
With black to move, white would win, because the black king has to move to d7 or d8. But with white to move it's a draw. As the knight moves, it has to alternately give up control of the dark c7 square and the light c8 square, and the black king just moves back and forth. To impress your chess friends, you can set this position up and say mutual zugzwang . With a bishop instead (say on g3), white could just waste a move with Bf4. However, he could also triangulate by: 1. Be1 Kc7 2. Bf2 Kc8 3. Bg3. |
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borschevsky
Chessnut
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 4:04 pm Post subject: 9 |
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| So the answer to "knights or bishops?" is "it depends." |
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borschevsky
Chessnut
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 8:56 pm Post subject: 10 |
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| What are your favorites? |
I guess I didn't answer this. One that's fun is the bishop's opening with white. It's probably not objectively the best, but it sometimes generates some fun tactical games, often in the style of the king's gambit. Also, you can play it effectively without having to memorize lots of opening theory.
I once won the following game with it:
1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5 Nf2
Chess Board
The last time I put this position into a computer, it said that black was completely winning, by about 3.5 pawns. However...
7.Qh5 g6 8.Qh6 Nxh1 9.Bg5 f6 10.fxg6! fxg5 11.g7
Chess Board
So here I've lost a rook and bishop, but black has some problems. He tries Kd7, which covers the h8 square with the queen. But white can maneuver his queen to f7 and bishop to b5...
11... Kd7 12.Qe6+ Kc6 13.Qd5+ Kd7 14.Qf7+ Kc6 15.Bb5+ Kb6
Chess Board
16.Be8!
Chess Board
16... Qxe8 17.Qb3+ Ka6 18.gxh8=Q
Chess Board
And the black queen is overloaded. It can't take the Qh8, due to Qb5 mate.
Unfortunately for me, I can't really take too much credit for this game, since this entire line was in an openings book that I had read. But it was still fun to play. |
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Dr. Borodog
Mad Scientist
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 10:54 pm Post subject: 11 |
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Thank you for all the work you've put in so far, borschevsky. I didn't want you to think it's gone unread; it hasn't. I'm going to have about a hundred more questions for you when I have some free time . . .
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You will respect my philosophai. |
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borschevsky
Chessnut
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:13 pm Post subject: 12 |
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The other day I played kind of a dual to the game above, sacrificing the queen's rook instead.
1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d3 Bc5 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. f4 d6 6. Nf3 Bg4 7. h3 Bxf3 8. Qxf3 Nd4 9. Qg3!? Nxc2+ 10. Kd1 Nxa1 11. Qxg7 Rf8 12. fxe5 dxe5 13. Bg5 Be7 14. Rf1 Ng8 15. Bxf7+ Kd7 16. Qxe5 Bxg5?? 17. Qe6#
Chess Board
So black made a pretty big oversight at the end, but I think even without that I'm going to end up ok. This is probably a better example of what I was saying about this opening. I know the idea of Qg3, and the next few moves are pretty clockwork, just piling up on f6 and f7. If I didn't already know about the possibility of Qg3, then I might not have even considered it. But knowing about the idea is enough, without a bunch of memorized theory. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:12 pm Post subject: 13 |
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| Quote: |
| Is this a good approach, or should one always be working on some plan that is 12 moves deep? I have difficulty seeing ahead, even just s couple moves. Is there any way that you can practice this skill, or is it just something you have or don't? |
Speaking as a lesser player than both DP and bors, I can tell you how *I* play (and I win most of my amateur-level games). I can't be arsed (and I rarely concentrate enough) to calculate 12 moves ahead. However, just as you don't recalculate the appropriate statistics whenever you see a flop, I just have some heuristics. Some of the moves I make, I have no clue what will actually come of them -- but I have a vague concept of them "paying off" at some later date. The more you play, the more experience you gain, in terms of positions witnessed (especially if you analyse games later on) and thus the better your heuristics become. One player in the Technion's team is so experienced at defense, he can look at an attack and immediately say "this won't fly" (usually. He really is good at defense ). I've yet to see him proven wrong. He doesn't consider all the possible moves, he just knows many attack positions, and knows which ones fail, and why (for example, "you have the wrong bishop" or "you can't force my pawns open fast enough"). So, once you figure your style out, just practice it a lot - stick to one opening which creates positions you like, and play it against everyone in existence, until you feel good about playing it. Then try another one, etc.
Antrax
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"Look, that's why there's rules, understand? So that you think before you break 'em" - Lu-Tze, Thief of Time |
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wordcross
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:22 pm Post subject: 14 |
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Just my two cents, and off the current discussion direction, but I found that while playing chess4 with deth, ih8, and Eykir, I learned quite a bit about strategy and tactical advantage, not to mention the fact that i was often able to think further ahead than in normal chess games. I find that rather odd, to tell the truth, since anticipating three other players would look to be more difficult than just anticipating one.
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Platypi are like people. |
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borschevsky
Chessnut
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:18 pm Post subject: 15 |
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Another fun one: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 Nf6 3.d3 Bc5 4.Nc3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5 Nf2 7.Qh5 0-0 8.Nf3 Nxh1 9.Ng5 h6 10.Nxf7 Rxf7 11.Qxf7+ Kh8 12.Bg5 1-0
And, to be fair, black can do pretty well sometimes too, as in Kharlov-Topalov. Apparently, to win in this opening from either side, you just sac a rook. |
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