Techniques for stealing money from young children (to make P

[VinnyQ]

(Previously: The Principles of Things)

What principles in life do you value most?

Honesty? Compassion? Courage? Stubborness? etc?

If a close family member of your is violating one of those principle, e.g stealing a large amount from his company, would you turn him in for punishment?

How about your best friend? If your best friend is cheating on his woman, would you try to warn her?

If your son is involved in terrorist activity, would you turn him in knowing that he'll get the death penalty?

What is more important? The love you have for a person, or the principles of things?

[This message has been edited by VinnyQ (edited 06-26-2003 05:32 PM).]

[Pablo]

Honesty? Compassion? Courage? Stubborness? etc?

Productivity

If a close family member of your is violating one of those principle, e.g stealing a large amount from his company, would you turn him in for punishment?

No, but I'd sure pressure him/her to make it right, and if that didn't happen, the relationship would be jeopardized.

How about your best friend? If your best friend is cheating on his woman, would you try to warn her?

No, but I'd try to convince him to correct the situation.

If your son is involved in terrorist activity, would you turn him in knowing that he'll get the death penalty?

No, but I'd write him out of my will.

What is more important? The love you have for a person, or the principles of things?

If you're talking about an infant, then I would say the former. If you're talking about love between adults, I'd say the latter.

(I only had 5 minutes for these. I may come back and expand later)

[Vinny]

say Pab, since when is Productivity a principle? =P

[Courk]

I think true, deep love is the best principle, if that counts.

With love comes:

compassion - I don't think you can love someone yet not want to ease their pain.

honesty - If you love a person, you probably aren't doing something to hur him/her that you would then have to lie about. Otherwise the love isn't true or deep. However, love may cause you to lie to someone if a third party is doing something that could hurt him/her. In that case, encourage the wrong-doer to right the wrong.

courage - Parents will run into a burning room for their children because they love them. Complete strangers will run into a burning building out of a deep love for human beings in general. Love can cause an ordinary person to do extraordinary things without even thinking.

etc. You get the idea.

I agree with Pablo on all the other question.

Except on the terrorist son question. I wouldn't turn him in, but I don't think I would write him out of my will. I would try to get him to stop and turn himself in (Can you still be executed if you confess and turn yourself in? If so, then ignore that). I would also help the police if they specifically came to me, but I personally wouldn't turn in my son. as for the will, I wouldn't give my son any money or anything worth a lot of money, but I would give him things like a shell collection or something worthless like that. Show him that, as a mother, I still loved him, but I wouldn't support him in what he was doing.



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Save manatees: They're tax deductable!

[Lepton]

You got to stand for the home-boys, know what I'm sayin'? It ain't about no love or crap like that, it's about respect. I take a bullet for my homie, that's just me respecting what he means to me, y'know?

[casinopete]

I think the best course of action if a family member (perhaps a brother?) is involved in something highly illegal is to ask a bunch of friends what they would do, making sure to keep the questions general, so they don't suspect him. And if there were circumstances that might make it tough to keep the secret, perhaps instead ask the question(s) of online friends, so I could get advice without giving away the situation.

[extropalopakettle]

[casinopete]

I would say Vinny anonymous friend, I think Pablo's got it mostly right, you should pressure Huey your friend or relative to abandon his criminal ways.

[Samadhi]

What if a family member moved in with an older member of the opposite sex in secret and you knew this was well against their wishes. Would you tell your parents?

[Pablo]

Vinny, I guess "productivity" isn't a principle. I couldn't think of the right word to represent an attitude of pulling one's own weight, contributing to society, etc. You get the idea...

Maybe that's still not a principle. Victoria is a Principal.

[This message has been edited by Pablo (edited 06-18-2003 02:43 PM).]

[ML]

I've used the word "Competence" to describe what I think you're going for, although the connotations are slightly different.

[casinopete]

I don't think honesty, compassion, courage, or stubborness are exactly principles as phrased, either. I don't know that it matters, though, as I think we all got the gist of what both Vinny and Pablo were saying.

[Huey]

Repent of my SINS!!!

Principles are relatives, unless you have a relative is also a principal. Then Bob is your uncle.

[Coyote]

Hey Pablo.

Suppose the King of PVC Pipes says you must sell a load of pipe to a sweet little old widow-woman running an orphanage, or you'll be fired. You know that purchasing all that pipe will drain her savings and cause the poor little orphans to starve, but faced with the prospect of unemployment, you toss compassion, courage, and stubborness out the window, and dishonestly tell the widow her iron piping is in danger of spontaneously exploding and needs to be replaced with nice safe plastic.

A few months later you notice the local newspaper has run an article about you being named the 'PVC Productivity Man of the Year'. It's right above the article about the former orphanage that's turned into a crack house.

Would you consider this a success, since your chief principle won out over the lesser principles that were sacrificed for its sake?

I realize you'll say (with considerable justification) that this is such a ridiculously specific case that it has no relevance toward the general concept you're presenting. But then again, being a source of pointless annoyance is one of my key principles--and I intend to hold true to it.

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When in danger, when in doubt,
Run in circles, scream and shout.

[Beartalon]

(Wow. Coyote - where have you been?)

[Beartalon]

Based on my current life situation, honesty is definitely the best principle, whether to yourself, or anyone else you come into contact with, no matter how seemingly insignificant the connection is.

[Pablo]

Originally posted by Coyote:

---

I realize you'll say (with considerable justification) that this is such a ridiculously specific case that it has no relevance

---

If I were God, you'd be asking me if I could make a rock so big that I couldn't lift it.

[Pablo]

I don't think honesty is always the best policy. Well, it kind of depends on how you define "honesty". And it sort of depends on how you define "always". Actually, for that matter it's a function of how you define "best". And how you define "policy" or "principle", whichever.

[This message has been edited by Pablo (edited 06-19-2003 12:37 AM).]

[The Anonymous Sarcast]

One productive PVC pipe guy + one productive crack house beats some old lady and a bunch of orphans in my book. Unless the orphans are chained up and sewing shoes for Nike, of course.

[Pablo]

[casinopete]

In fact, chains would likely tire them more quickly, which is hell for productivity. Don't you think before you post, Sarcast?

[Vinny]

To clarify, what I meant by principles was, "a set of guidelines and rules you use to make decisions and to live by.

principles

quote:

---

There are many tools for decision making, but few (secular) guides to indicate when situations might have an ethical implication. Yet this awareness is a crucial first step before decisions are made. Recognizing the moral context of a situation must precede any attempt to resolve it. Otherwise, what’s to resolve?

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[Vinny]

Hey, how are principles different from values? I am confuse.

[casinopete]

Values relate more to morals, principles would be a lot more like ethics.

For instance, honesty would be a value, but you can't just use "honesty" as a guideline, ethics/principles have to be slightly more complex, like "honesty is more important than money, but less important than life."

(I think)

[Hitchhiker]

I think casinopete's right. Principles have to be statements that weigh different possible actions and point you toward the "right" decision in a situation. Just saying "I value honesty," to borrow mith's expression, is like saying "I like fishies."

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is a principle.

[casinopete]

heya, Pablo

I'm rather interested in a clarification of your "productivity" principle.

Is it universally applicable, by which I mean a person should produce as much as possible, no matter what?

Or is it right only until a person produces "enough" to account for what they consume, after which further production is morally neutral?

Or is it a combination, in which it is a moral requirement up until matching consumption, and then a gradually descending value for whatever exceeds that?

[casinopete]

*coughs*
I'm not being facetious or sarcastic; I really am interested.

[HyToFry]

Don't turn huey in!

[Vinny]

You're gonna have to find a way to get Pablo attention, pete. I think he's bypassing this thread on his check list.

I have a question for you though,

How are virtues different from principles and values?

[Suki]

Vinny, change the thread title to "Techniques for stealing money from young children".

[casinopete]

A Virtue is a trait. It is a thing you have/are rather than something you use to judge other things. For instance, pretend I'm an honest person. It doesn't really matter whether you value honesty, or whether you consider me good or not - it has no effect on me being honest. It's just something about me.

[Pablo]

Originally posted by casinopete:

---

heya, Pablo
I'm rather interested in a clarification of your "productivity" principle.

Is it universally applicable, by which I mean a person should produce as much as possible, no matter what?

Or is it right only until a person produces "enough" to account for what they consume, after which further production is morally neutral?

Or is it a combination, in which it is a moral requirement up until matching consumption, and then a gradually descending value for whatever exceeds that?

---

Pete, I think that's an excellent question - so much so that I hardly feel worthy to answer it, but I'll give you my best shot.

Personally, I admire productivity, so the more someone produces the more I admire that aspect of them. I will stop admiring them when their productivity drops to a level slightly above their consumption level because they have a debt to parents, etc, who supported them for 20 years or whatever. So each of us has some obligation beyond our own consumption. Again, this is ME - my value system. Do I need to mention that I believe productivity should be proportionately rewarded monetarily?

I'd be interested in other people's answer to this.

[The Anonymous Sacrast]

What a load of shit that is. Pablo, I didn't realize what a fuckwit you were. Give me a break. Productivity, SHMoductivity! Just give everyone a gun, and Bingo (or should I say 'Bang'?), problem solved.