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Science and the Senses

 
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....



PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:44 pm    Post subject: 1 Reply with quote

Would a person with impaired senses be inherently and absolutely less able than an "ordinary" person to have a scientific understanding of certain things?

For instance, are there things that have a scientific explanation which a sufficiently educated person may understand, but which a deaf person would be incapable of understanding?

How about a completely colorblind person? Could a colorblind scientist, who has knowledge of every physical property and process of a normally sighted person's brain ... could he possibly understand what it is like to see colors? If not, why not?
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Lepton
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: 2 Reply with quote

I think that all the senses can be sufficiently-well abstracted to make the issue irrelevant. For example, I cannot see radio, infrared, ultraviolet, or X-ray radiation, but I will consider "false-colour" astronomical images taken with these types of radiation to have equal footing with visible light images.
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extro...*
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:27 pm    Post subject: 3 Reply with quote

So can a colorblind scientist understand what it is like to see colors as you or I do? I understand he could use instruments to make measurements of amounts of light of different wavelengths (as even a blind person can). But there is a subjective aspect to seeing colors that has nothing to do with light, but has a neural basis. Can he understand what that is like?
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Lepton*
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:45 pm    Post subject: 4 Reply with quote

Almost certainly not. However, I don't think that the senses are as important to science as they once were. While Galileo might've needed keen eyesight, it's no longer important that a scientist can see very well. Sagan wrote a blind astronomer into his novel Contact, for example. The issue might be more important in fields with which I am less familiar, but in places like physics and astronomy, what matters is a person's mental ability, even among experimentalists/observers.

In the building of experimental apparatuses, this becomes an issue; but it is a different subject in which ways sensory-limited people are disadvantaged in the "building stuff" arena.
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Courk
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:56 pm    Post subject: 5 Reply with quote

I don't know how being blind for example would affect someone's ability as an astronomer, since I don't know everything that an astronomer can do. However, I do have to wonder how that would affect someone's desire to even enter that field. Assuming someone who was blind from a very young age, they wouldn't remember or know what stars look like, so I don't know if there would be as much interest on their part. They could read, hear, and learn about stars and planets, but I would think not being able to see them would impact their interest in some way.
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Courk
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:58 pm    Post subject: 6 Reply with quote

Then again, it could be even more appealing, since no one can really see much of the stars. They're only missing out on a tiny little speck of light -- what difference does that really make? A blind person and person who wasn't blind would be on almost equal footing.
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extro...*
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:11 am    Post subject: 7 Reply with quote

extro...* wrote:
... there is a subjective aspect to seeing colors that has nothing to do with light, but has a neural basis. Can he understand what that is like?


Lepton* wrote:
Almost certainly not. However, I don't think that the senses are as important to science as they once were.


OK, but this subjective aspect of seeing colors, i.e. the way they appear to me or you, which this colorblind scientist can never understand ... is the nature of this subjective experience and how our physical brains produce it not also something that science might want to study and explain? If science can understand how these particular experiences with particular subjective qualities are actually produced by the physical events in our brain, then shouldn't even a colorblind scientist be able to understand what those experiences and qualities are like?
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Bicho the Inhaler
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:52 am    Post subject: 8 Reply with quote

Some variations:

- Can a person ever understand what it's like to see the world through the eyes of a duck, which (as I'm told) see the world in four primary colors instead of three?

- Can a person ever understand what it's like to experience the world as a dolphin or a bat, whose faculty of echolocation simply has no human equivalent?

There are many ways to reach the conclusion that the human brain is bounded in its ability to represent and comprehend information, and that human language is bounded in its ability to convey information.

We like to think of knowledge as representable in language, since that means we can communicate it to other people. Science must be communicable between people, so it's a requirement that scientific information be represented in language. However, there's no reason to believe that all types knowledge our brains can represent can also be represented linguistically. In fact, this is obviously not the case. As a corollary, there is information that is inaccessible to science as we know it (which should also be obvious).

Our senses can convey to us a lot of information that language can't, so naturally, people with sensory disabilities might be unable to acquire certain types of information. The brain of a deaf or colorblind person, being a human brain, can represent the same things a normal person's brain can represent, but the person has limited means of acquiring information (the person's ears convey no information or the person's eyes convey less information respectively), so there are some kinds of understanding that he just can't get to.

Edit: Let me clarify, to answer your original question, that these inaccessible types of information are not scientific information, since scientific information must be codified in language, at least until we find a fundamentally more powerful way to communicate.
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian



PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: 9 Reply with quote

If a child was born with the red and blue wires crossed in their brain, so that they perceive red where normally blue was perceived and vice versa, would it make any difference?

I expect that they would still be able to name the colours correctly. However, there is also an emotional response to colour which I believe is innate and not learned. Baby seagulls will, for example, peck at a red spot on their parents' beaks to encourage regurgitation.

Would this child be as likely, I wonder, to fear wasps and other brightly coloured insects?

As an example, here is what this picture would look with red and blue swapped:
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian



PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:31 pm    Post subject: 10 Reply with quote

Coincidentally, saw this just now.
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Nsof
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:43 pm    Post subject: 11 Reply with quote

I think yes - if the specific science requires the disabled scientist to make observations.
If you want to study logic or math there is no hindrance.
If you want to become an ornithologist there might be problems with observing the mating behavior of birds. One could argue that you can focus on the theories of such science but i believe that part of being an ornithologist is to observe birds and not just read about it.

extropalopakettle wrote:
Could a colorblind scientist, ... could he possibly understand what it is like to see colors?
Not in the same 'sense' as you do Revenge most foul!
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Dented Ford
Hoopy Frood



PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:50 pm    Post subject: 12 Reply with quote

I would say that a scientist with a sensory defecit (eg Carl Sagan's blind astronomer) can still be a scientist in the true sense of the word. It may mean that some observations are not possible in the same manner as another observer with all normal senses. However, a great proportion of the observations made by scientists have already been processed by automatic systems before being presented in a particular format, often visual, and are translatable into other media. In terms of interpreting data, and conceptualising, there need not be a hindrance - visualising is a word often used, but who can really visualise a Black Hole's event horizon? Conceptualise it, yes. And having no sight might even mean that the conceptual faculties of the blind astronomer are improved.
It needn't be only logic or maths that can be scientifically studied, although certainly the more abstract, then the less the sensory defecit is a problem. Observation of natural history is, as Nsof points out, much more of a problem.
On a slightly different note, what of people with synaesthesia? Could a person who "tastes" words, or "sees" numbers etc find that their strange perception of the world could assist in a truly scientific capacity?
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superstring91
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:59 pm    Post subject: 13 Reply with quote

extropalopakettle wrote:
For instance, are there things that have a scientific explanation which a sufficiently educated person may understand, but which a deaf person would be incapable of understanding?


first, are you saying that deaf people are not sufficiently educated?
second, you don't need to be able to hear to learn things. you can read; i have learned a lot from reading[and i hear perfectly fine]. and turn subtitles on when you watch NOVA
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worm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:44 am    Post subject: 14 Reply with quote

superstring91 wrote:
extropalopakettle wrote:
For instance, are there things that have a scientific explanation which a sufficiently educated person may understand, but which a deaf person would be incapable of understanding?


first, are you saying that deaf people are not sufficiently educated?
second, you don't need to be able to hear to learn things. you can read; i have learned a lot from reading[and i hear perfectly fine]. and turn subtitles on when you watch NOVA

how do you know when extro... watches NOVA?
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extro...*
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:28 am    Post subject: 15 Reply with quote

superstring91 wrote:
extropalopakettle wrote:
For instance, are there things that have a scientific explanation which a sufficiently educated person may understand, but which a deaf person would be incapable of understanding?


first, are you saying that deaf people are not sufficiently educated?


I don't see how I could be. If I did not qualify "things that have a scientific explanation" with "which a sufficiently educated person may understand", then the question of whether there are any such things that a deaf person would be incapable of understanding would be trivial, and the answer would be yes, a deaf person could not understand those things which no other person can understand.

Quote:
second, you don't need to be able to hear to learn things. you can read; i have learned a lot from reading[and i hear perfectly fine]. and turn subtitles on when you watch NOVA


But if someone wants to learn why certain things happening in my brain are perceived by me as sounds, and how and why those things happening create those experiences with the qualities (which I can't describe) that my experiences of sound have, then that person might need to hear. If I can't describe to a deaf person what sound sounds like, could a deaf scientist understand how certain physical things happening in the brain produce an experience with the qualities of sound?
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Bicho the Inhaler
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:31 am    Post subject: 16 Reply with quote

Jack_Ian wrote:
If a child was born with the red and blue wires crossed in their brain, so that they perceive red where normally blue was perceived and vice versa, would it make any difference?
...

Your question is asked a lot, and it's a complete red herring. The question doesn't even make sense. Saying "red and blue wires crossed in their brain" begs the question "crossed relative to what?" You probably mean relative to your own subjective perception of the colors red and blue. But that comparison is not well defined: it's impossible to compare your subjective experience of something to her subjective experience simply because there's no frame of reference in which both things are defined. In order to compare two things, you need to be able to see both things at the same time, but there's nobody who can see both your qualia and her qualia.
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian



PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:00 pm    Post subject: 17 Reply with quote

Bicho, I'm not so sure that I totally agree with you.
There are objective measurements that can show the brain's response to images. However, I agree that it would be impossible to attribute any such observed phenomena to "crossed-colour-wires".
It may be that there is a difference, but given our inability to accurately measure such differences coupled with our inability to differentiate those with "normal" connections from those wired differently, means the correct answer is probably "Who cares?".
I am in awe though, of your use "qualia".
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extro...*
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:26 pm    Post subject: 18 Reply with quote

Bicho the Inhaler wrote:
In order to compare two things, you need to be able to see both things at the same time, but there's nobody who can see both your qualia and her qualia.


Along those lines, can anyone say that the way they see the color red now is the same as the way they saw it yesterday, or seconds ago? I can't compare the red-of-now with the red-of-yesterday. I can only see the red-of-now and notice that I have the sense it is familiar. But the qualia themselves can be ever changing.

Another question: Is it possible qualia don't exist?
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian



PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:08 am    Post subject: 19 Reply with quote

We only observe shadows.
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Bicho the Inhaler
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:42 am    Post subject: 20 Reply with quote

extro...* wrote:
Along those lines, can anyone say that the way they see the color red now is the same as the way they saw it yesterday, or seconds ago? I can't compare the red-of-now with the red-of-yesterday. I can only see the red-of-now and notice that I have the sense it is familiar. But the qualia themselves can be ever changing.
It can be compared to the memory of past qualia. I don't have access to reality, only to my perception of reality. That includes the reality of my own history, even of the innermost parts of my consciousness; all I have is my memory of it. So the best I can say is "the way I see red today is the same as I remember seeing red yesterday." That's good enough for me.
Quote:
Another question: Is it possible qualia don't exist?
I know my qualia exists because I experience it. But does it exist outside my private subjective reference frame? I doubt it. I can't compel anybody else to acknowledge the existence of my qualia. So it depends on how you define "exists," and more specifically, it's a question of frame of reference.
Jack_Ian wrote:
There are objective measurements that can show the brain's response to images. However, I agree that it would be impossible to attribute any such observed phenomena to "crossed-colour-wires".
Yes, you can measure a person's brain, but you can't observe the subjective aspect of his response to to those images; the measurements can't show you the images the way he sees them. Achieving the latter just seems fundamentally intractable if not outright impossible.
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