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pikachamp
swore in chat!
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 Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: 1 |
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I've been an atheist for several years now. My parents are vaguely aware of it, but never bring it up. I'm very confident in my beliefs, and it would take an actual miracle to change my mind.
However, I do like to discuss beliefs and religion. I even like to argue about it. (Actually, I like to argue in general.) The most of this I get in real life is with some coworkers, but I don't feel comfortable with that in case a customer overhears and complains or something.
Anyway, I'd like to invite everyone to bring their arguments to the table for a friendly argument. I'd like a chance to defend my beliefs against an intelligent argument.
Finally, I'm curious to see if there are any other atheists on here. |
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worm
unregistered
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject: 2 |
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a number of folks have already voiced their opinion in this thread.
http://www.greylabyrinth.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=6810
btw, i don't care to start arguments with folks looking to defend their beliefs on religion. if it were more of an open-ended (or open-minded) discussion on the subject, i'd be more interested. |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:37 am Post subject: 3 |
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I waded in deep with that thread. 
_________________
And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Mr Stoofer
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: 4 |
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| pikachamp wrote: |
| I'm very confident in my beliefs, and it would take an actual miracle to change my mind. |
I don't see how an atheist can say that. If that's your attitude, you're an agnostic (albeit, perhaps, a highly sceptical one). |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:27 pm Post subject: 5 |
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| A miracle can't happen. If something we thought would be miraculous actually happened it would become a newly discovered law of physics. |
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Evil Empire
Soopy's Favourite
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: 6 |
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| Mr Stoofer wrote: |
| pikachamp wrote: |
| I'm very confident in my beliefs, and it would take an actual miracle to change my mind. |
I don't see how an atheist can say that. If that's your attitude, you're an agnostic (albeit, perhaps, a highly sceptical one). |
Why can't an atheist say that? |
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pikachamp
swore in chat!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: 7 |
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| Well, when people say "You can't prove God doesn't exist." They're technically right. So, I'm 99% sure that God doesn't exist. In my opinion, an Agnostic is someone who thinks that God's existence is 50/50. |
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Coyote
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: 8 |
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Wait a minute--what about us 30/70 people? Are we weak atheists or strong agnostics?
Incidentally, just how are you defining 'God' here? |
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:20 pm Post subject: 9 |
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| I'm a non-practicing agnostic. |
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pikachamp
swore in chat!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:02 pm Post subject: 10 |
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| I don't believe in any concept that someone might define as 'God'. Either the biblical God full of contradictions, or any sort of supernatural entity. |
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Evil Empire
Soopy's Favourite
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:45 pm Post subject: 11 |
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| Coyote wrote: |
| Are we weak atheists or strong agnostics? |
Depends, whatcha bench? |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: 12 |
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What would Jesus bench?
_________________
And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Mr Stoofer
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: 13 |
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| Mr Stoofer wrote: |
| pikachamp wrote: |
| I'm very confident in my beliefs, and it would take an actual miracle to change my mind. |
I don't see how an atheist can say that. If that's your attitude, you're an agnostic (albeit, perhaps, a highly sceptical one). |
At the risk of returning this thread to its original topic...
If you are, currently, prepared to contemplate the possibility of a miracle, then you must be an agnostic.
This is the attitude of an atheist:
| Chuck wrote: |
| A miracle can't happen. If something we thought would be miraculous actually happened it would become a newly discovered law of physics. |
I understand an agnostic to be someone who doesn't feel that they know for certain whether there is a God: 99/1, 70/30 or "I'm almost certain there isn't" are all agnostics. |
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Dragon Phoenix
Judge Doom
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: 15 |
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If you can't be a true atheist if you have the slightest doubt then the only way to be an atheist is to never have heard of nor thought of the possibility of gods. You can't believe in something nor accept the possibility of something if the concept never entered your mind.
Or does it depend on the nature of the god or gods in question? I suppose you can be 100% certain that a logically impossible god does not exist. If a true god must be omnipotent but you consider that to be impossible then you might consider it remotely possible that some powerful being created the universe but not consider that being to be a god. |
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Poisonium
annoyed by the old
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: 16 |
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I'm:
1. Atheist
2. Spiritual
_________________
I tried apt-get install lifebut it only returned E: Couldn't find package life |
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Evil Empire
Soopy's Favourite
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: 17 |
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| Mr Stoofer wrote: |
I understand an agnostic to be someone who doesn't feel that they know for certain whether there is a God: 99/1, 70/30 or "I'm almost certain there isn't" are all agnostics. |
By this definition isn't everybody an agnostic? I don't know anyone who can know for certain whether there is a God or not.
Personally I don't believe there is a God, to me that makes me an atheist. Since I can't prove that God doesn't exist anymore then I can prove Santa Clause doesn't exist I have to leave the possibility open. |
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Coyote
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject: 18 |
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I think it all depends on whether you view God as an Entity who has an intense personal interest in the critters occupying this planet, or as an Entity who has a vague, dispassionate interest in everything happening in the Universe all the time.
I tend to be more atheistic towards the former, and more agnostic towards the latter. |
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pikachamp
swore in chat!
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:49 am Post subject: 19 |
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There are plenty of religious people who would claim to be 100% sure that God is real. That's how faith works.
From what I've seen and read, science very rarely proves a certainty. Science just provides probabilities. To say that you know for absolute certainty that there is not super powerful entity watching over us, is a matter of faith. The best you can say with science is that due to the lack of evidence, it is extremely unlikely.
Also, I agree with Chuck. |
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: 20 |
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Actually I think he's ignostic.  |
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mudbuck
Dirty Dollar
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:01 am Post subject: 21 |
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pika, what kind of atheist are you? I've recently discovered that I'm a humanist.
_________________
1000oclock.com |
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Mr Stoofer
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: 22 |
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| pikachamp wrote: |
| From what I've seen and read, science very rarely proves a certainty. Science just provides probabilities. To say that you know for absolute certainty that there is not super powerful entity watching over us, is a matter of faith. The best you can say with science is that due to the lack of evidence, it is extremely unlikely. |
I think I agree -- my second post in this thread was probably too black and white. I'd agree that you could be an athiest while still maintaining some doubt. As long as the degree of doubt is the same as your degree of doubt about gravity or electricity. I still think that pikachamp's statement -- especially the fact that he made it unprompted -- disqualifies him from being an athiest.
In any event, this is now a semantic discussion rather than a philosophical/theological one. |
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:42 pm Post subject: 23 |
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| pikachamp wrote: |
| I've been an atheist for several years now. My parents are vaguely aware of it, but never bring it up. |
What did you believe in before? Are your parents religious? Why not bring it up?
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Will sell this place for beer |
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Coyote
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:30 pm Post subject: 24 |
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| Mr Stoofer wrote: |
| I think I agree -- my second post in this thread was probably too black and white. I'd agree that you could be an athiest while still maintaining some doubt. As long as the degree of doubt is the same as your degree of doubt about gravity or electricity. |
Well...maybe, but I doubt it. Doubting gravity and electricity is based on the fact that they're falsifiable--that is, however much evidence is brought forward to support them, we true skeptics must always accept that there's a possibility that new evidence may completely trash those ideas, and require a new way to interpret the data.
Doubt in a God is an entirely different kind of doubt, and is based on the fact that no really convincing and falsifiable evidence is available.
| Quote: |
| I still think that pikachamp's statement -- especially the fact that he made it unprompted -- disqualifies him from being an athiest. |
Perhaps. But I think he's still athier than you.
pssst...it's spelled 'atheist' 
| Quote: |
| In any event, this is now a semantic discussion rather than a philosophical/theological one. |
I'll need a little bit more than your confident assurance before I accept this. Just how are you defining 'semantic' here?? |
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casinopete
Emergency Backup Antrax
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:12 am Post subject: 25 |
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| Your mom and I had a pretty semantic time last night. |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: 26 |
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You played scrabble?
_________________
And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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ShadowSword
Busted!
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:48 am Post subject: 27 |
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I am Roman Catholic and when I sometimes argue religion with one of my friends it's often about creationism and I have come up with somewhat of a strong argument.
So according to Christians the universe was created somewhere between 6-10 thousand years ago. They changed it a few times but the exact date really isn't important in this case. My belief is that the universe was created aged. However it was taking one step further, it was created with a history. This means that God did not just snap his fingers and created the universe, but created a system in such a way that it would create the world as we know it today. So instead of creating the universe, then waiting billions of years of nothingness, he created it as it would appear if it had already been around for that long. So as far as I'm concerned all science is doing in trying to discover the beginning of the universe is showing that God is as powerful as people say he is.
_________________
"Heads you're good, tails you fail" says my fortune cookie |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:12 am Post subject: 28 |
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Or maybe God created the universe ten minutes ago and gave us all built in memories.
The "God fabricated false evidence" theory is one more reason to disbelieve. It adds yet another complication that is more easily explained by the theory that God is a myth. Besides, how do we know that Satan didn't do it? He at least has reason to want us to disbelieve. |
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The Ragin' South Asian
Head Poncho
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:16 am Post subject: 29 |
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| ShadowSword wrote: |
| but the exact date really isn't important in this case. |
I don't understand what the point would be if the exact date wasn't important. Why would God favor your method over just going ahead and creating the universe billions of years ago? For an omnipresent, omnipotent deity, wouldn't it just be a pointless obsufaction, unless that exact date mattered? You know, the one that has changed a few times.
I know I'm probably coming across like an ass here, especially because I haven't put forth any of my own beliefs to be lampooned. No justification; I am, in fact, an ass. |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:32 am Post subject: 30 |
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| The point is that if someone insists that the bible is absolutely true, word for word, then all of history, physics, geology, cosmology, and biology have to be distorted and twisted horribly to fit. Denial that prehistory even happened is an extreme example. |
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Amb
Amb the Hitched.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:34 am Post subject: 31 |
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| Read anything by Lee Strobel. After that, then decide. |
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jja
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:48 am Post subject: 32 |
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This is an old argument, put forward by Philip Henry Gosse in his book Omphalos.
If we buy this speculation, who's to say that the whole universe wasn't created just five minutes ago, making all our lives utter lies as well? Your fondest memories, triumphs, loves, struggles, everything that makes you a unique person, not to mention all of the events described in the bible -- all of it was made up by god and none of it actually happened. Don't you feel ashamed of yourself for being such a dupe? I guess god really put one over on you! He's probably up there right now, laughing like an adult who just gave a four year old a chunk of brown rubber and told him it was a piece of chocolate.
What makes this idea really irrelevant is that it makes no testable predictions. We cannot distinguish a universe in which this is true from a regular sort of universe. So, what's the point? If you want to believe that god is a liar and the bible isn't true; if you want to believe that science is chasing an enormous lie (against all present evidence), that's your right and privilege - but why bother to tell anyone about it? What good can it do anyone? Why not just become a solipsist and have done with it?
_________________
JJA
"Sancte," inquit, "quare, quaeso, rapis arborem festam?"
Last edited by jja on Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Chuck
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:00 am Post subject: 33 |
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| It's a matter of credulity. If the bible is correct then God has given us brains that draw conclusions from evidence and put us in a universe in which such this process works extremely well. Then he plants vast amounts of evidence in the ground for us to find, but anyone who believes that it's true gets to burn in hell for eternity. I find it hard to believe that our all powerful creator plays juvenile games with peoples' souls. |
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jja
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: 34 |
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| Mr Stoofer wrote: |
| I still think that pikachamp's statement -- especially the fact that he made it unprompted -- disqualifies him from being an athiest. |
I love it when people who aren't atheists make pronouncements on how atheists must or must not think or what they may or may not believe. I remember a fellow on an IRC channel who had gotten hold of a poor dictionary definition of atheism, and who thereby Laid Down The Law upon us poor heathen bastards who were apparently too dumb to know our own thoughts. How dare we not conform our beliefs to the contents of a book!
An atheist is a person who lacks belief in any gods. Now, you will find dogmatic atheists who say that it is impossible that any gods could exist. This seems to be Mr. Stoofer's model of what an atheist should be.
Non-dogmatic atheists feel that it is fallacious to try to prove a negative, and are prepared, if given a sufficient level of proof, to change their minds and admit that they were wrong about the existence of gods. This is a scientific mode of thinking, not an agnostic mode of thinking. The former relies upon evidence and standards of proof; the latter strives to avoid making a decision, claiming that knowledge is not adequate to resolve the question.
The scientifically-oriented atheist will consider the facts and revise belief (or lack thereof) accordingly. The agnostic says "My mind isn't made up; don't confuse me with the facts"
Now, pikachamp and a buddhist might agree on the nonexistence of gods and differ in myriad other points, including one's basis for rejecting the existence of gods. They are both atheists, but pikachamp is not a buddhist.
Pikachamp and an agnostic would not agree in the lack of any gods; the agnostic does not think herself qualified to make such a brash statement. So pikachamp remains an atheist and the agnostic remains agnostic.
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JJA
"Sancte," inquit, "quare, quaeso, rapis arborem festam?" |
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Mackay
Saviour of Spiders
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:36 am Post subject: 35 |
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This is not a contribution, but jja, seeing you posting reminded me that I owe you a response in another religious thread, and I now have the free time to actually make it.  It will still probably be a while though. |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: 36 |
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jja: I've always considered myself an atheist and an agnostic. I'm atheist for similar reasons to the non-dogmatic atheist you describe. I think atheism should be the starting point, not the point to argue towards.
But as for agnosticism, I interpret it slightly differently (although it is a standard definition). Faith is belief without proof. I think it's rational to be an atheist and so I am. But I only have my experiences. Someone else has different experiences. I know many people who have said they've been touched by God. They've had an epiphany or a religious moment. It would be hypocrisy for me to ask them to prove their experience.
I'm not talking about creationism or young earth or whatever. Those clearly conflict with my knowledge of science except by the use of anything short of a magic God wand. But while I shouldn't be required to disprove there are gods, I don't think anyone who does believe in a god should required to prove their god exists.
Caveat: While I don't think someone needs to prove their beliefs, I don't mean that I (or anyone else) have to accept any decision or opinion they make based upon those beliefs.
_________________
And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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jja
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:49 pm Post subject: 37 |
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| Mackay wrote: |
| This is not a contribution, but jja, seeing you posting reminded me that I owe you a response in another religious thread, and I now have the free time to actually make it. It will still probably be a while though. |
I'm pleased that you remembered! There's no rush at this point; take your time. %?)
| Samadhi wrote: |
jja: I've always considered myself an atheist and an agnostic. I'm atheist for similar reasons to the non-dogmatic atheist you describe. I think atheism should be the starting point, not the point to argue towards.
But as for agnosticism, I interpret it slightly differently (although it is a standard definition). |
I am not about to commit the same mistake that I was criticizing earlier and try to tell people whether they are agnostic based on a definition. %?)
| Samadhi wrote: |
Faith is belief without proof. I think it's rational to be an atheist and so I am. But I only have my experiences. Someone else has different experiences. I know many people who have said they've been touched by God. They've had an epiphany or a religious moment. It would be hypocrisy for me to ask them to prove their experience.
I'm not talking about creationism or young earth or whatever. Those clearly conflict with my knowledge of science except by the use of anything short of a magic God wand. But while I shouldn't be required to disprove there are gods, I don't think anyone who does believe in a god should required to prove their god exists.
Caveat: While I don't think someone needs to prove their beliefs, I don't mean that I (or anyone else) have to accept any decision or opinion they make based upon those beliefs. |
I agree with you to a point. I am not interested in making people justify their beliefs, unless they wish to have a debate about them or wish to inflict/impose them upon others.
I do wish that critical thinking classes were required as early as grade school. It would piss off a lot of parents, but I think it would make our society much healthier.
_________________
JJA
"Sancte," inquit, "quare, quaeso, rapis arborem festam?" |
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Mackay
Saviour of Spiders
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:51 am Post subject: 38 |
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Were I to say I'm not sure I believe in Jesus, would you be as eager to back up my right to call myself a Christian?
edit: A non-dogmatic Christian, perhaps? |
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jja
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:11 pm Post subject: 39 |
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| Mackay wrote: |
Were I to say I'm not sure I believe in Jesus, would you be as eager to back up my right to call myself a Christian?
edit: A non-dogmatic Christian, perhaps? |
To be an atheist, you just have to lack belief in gods (assuming that you could believe in gods the first place - rocks aren't atheists). That's really it. There's no book that tells atheists how to conduct themselves in order to remain atheistic, there are no sacred tenets of atheist belief, and there are no other special conditions.
To be a Christian is more complex. There is a book that tells Christians how to conduct themselves, there are sacred tenets of Christian belief, and so on. These conditions are generally set by tradition, church leaders, and social attitudes. I do not consider it right for me to make a definition and insist that someone conform to it for me to call them a Christian, but I don't have to, as Christians tend to do this for themselves.
My own call in the example that you cite would be that you are a Christian having a crisis of faith, or perhaps a Christian on the path to becoming something else.
_________________
JJA
"Sancte," inquit, "quare, quaeso, rapis arborem festam?" |
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Mackay
Saviour of Spiders
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:13 am Post subject: 40 |
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I deleted my previous post, I'm irritable today for some reason and I apologise if anyone read it.
jja, do you feel that Christianity requires particular behaviour of its adherents - aside from the rather obvious expectation that one does in fact believe in it - in order for a person to become/remain a Christian?
Out of curiosity, within which sect of Christianity were you brought up? |
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