Let's critique one another's poker play!

[MNOWAX]

the clincher is being able to throw away the paired ace if you know you are beat. So many people do not do that,and would rather check call to the end if they think that their opponent might have a better ace.
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[MNOWAX]

ok new hand, new day, lets see what you all think

Full Tilt Poker $1.25 sit and go 90 players, 82 left

Starting stacks 3000, level in this hand is 15/30

My image: I haven't played a hand yet and there has been five hands go by so not much has been shown down anyway.

(3000 chips)I am Dealt (As, Js) in middle position and raise to 150 (deep stack, so i raise a little more than normal) i get three callers including a late position, and both blinds (Pot 600)

Flop is (4s 8c Jh)

The two blinds check and i bet 450 into the pot. The late position calls, and the blind fold. (Pot 1500) At this point the Villain has a little bit more chips than I do, but were practically even.


Turn is ( 7s )

This is where it gets a little weird. I check, with the intent to check-raise when he bets 90. I am super scared right here, as it screams that he has something big and just screams "call me". I think he has a straight here, maybe he hit a set, or he just may be an idiot, but I have outs to the nuts, so I just call, afraid of having to stack off on a draw if i raise.(Pot: 1680)

River: ( 8s )

Ok, I have hit my nut flush, but the board paired. great. Now what? I bet 800. He surely would not believe that I chased down a runner runner flush, right?He stacks off,(pot 3280 factoring in the call but not the raise,and its the rest of my 1600 to call ), thinking I have a good shot that i have the best hand. However there are a couple of hand that can beat me.

I have two questions: Number One, what do you think he ended up having? Secondly, What could i have done to .have changed the situation? Lastly, Should I call the all in?
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Antrax]

Did anyone call until you? Why did you raise?
Before the flop, what did you put the later positions on?
After the flop, what did you thihk you were against?
Why bet 450? What were you hoping to accomplish?
Why would a late position bet 90 into a 1500 pot?

As for your own questions: easy call. He sounds like an idiot (bet 90 into a 1500 is meaningless, every hand in poker has pot odds there), I would put him on overpair (QQ/KK). Worst case he had a set all along and now he hit a full house, which is something you could have tried to probe at on the turn.
I would have played your hand very differently, so it's hard to say what you should have done "differently".
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[MNOWAX]

Did anyone call until you? No Why did you raise? I was just pot building. AJ suited is normally in my raising range in that position.
Before the flop, what did you put the later positions on? I put the blinds on anything. The late position caller id see with any pocket pair or suited connectors possibly. I think his preflop range was quite wide due to the deep stacks, and a little loose play. However I have not seen a showdown yet, so it could just be faulty perception
After the flop, what did you think you were against? I figured then he called the 450 that he had either drawing to the straight, had top pair, or trying to slowplay a set.
Why bet 450? What were you hoping to accomplish?I bet 3/4s of the pot to just take it down right there. I was a little surprised when he called actually, because it shortened his range considerably
Why would a late position bet 90 into a 1500 pot?Hell if I know, it just screamed raise me. I am pretty sure it wasn't a mis click, because the blinds were at 15-30, and he had to have at least moved the slider twice.

as for your analysis. i did not want to raise him on the turn, as if he had a set, he definitely would have moved in on me, and i would had to face a decision of trying to catch my flush for all of my chips.
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Antrax]

You bet 5 times the big blind to build a pot? How many players did you expect to call? What do you do if you flop an ace?
You think people call 4xBB with anything? Cold-call 5xBB with suited connectors? Call 450 in a 1050 pot with a straight draw?
I think we play the game very differently.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[MNOWAX]

firstly, in comparison to the stack size, 5 times the big blind here got quite the action i was looking for: 2- 3 callers. this is low stakes stuff with big stacks. I am not saying these people are good players, or even decent players. I am just using tactics that work on these people. I would have made the same continuation bet of 450 if i had flopped the ace, and are you telling me that you are not going to call 450 in a 1050 pot with an open ended straight draw? You're getting two to one on your money, and you're about a 2 to 1 dog. While they are not the best odds, they are good enough to warrant a call in that situation.

FYI: The idiot had Jc7c and had made two pair on the turn. The river actually would have helped me win this hand without the flush when it counterfeited his two pair anyway.-
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

I call, but I wouldn't be surprised to find I'm behind a boat. However, in these $1.25 many-player tournaments, the last thing I want to do is try to come back from being short-stacked. I want to double up or quit this tournament and go play something else.

[Antrax]

[Zag]

Hi all. WRGPT18 -- World Rec.Gambling.Poker Tournament #18 -- has just started. This is an email-based poker tournament modeled after WSOP main event. It takes most of the year and the only thing you win is bragging rights, but it is fun. I've been in every one since WRGPT5, and I finished fifth in WRGPT7.

[MNOWAX]

im so /in
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[MNOWAX]

new year new poker shot.

Turning stone 50 live tournament early stages:
you get 10K in chips, and blinds move up every fifteen minutes

My Image: TAG

Villian's Image: loose passive.

I started the hand with 12,000 in chips and the blinds are currently 150-300 with a 25 ante. Two limpers to me who is in the BB with KsJc i raise to 900 that the first villian calls and the other folds. The flop.is (4sKc8h) (Pot 2350)

i bet 1500 in to the pot, and he calls. Turn is the (Kh) (pot 5350)
I check, intent on check-raising, and he checks behind River is the (3d)

I check again, and he shoves for 6000. Whats your play?
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[MNOWAX]

What actually happened - I couldn't get away from the feeling that i was beat by a king that just filled up or just a better King in general. While it wouldn't cost me all of my chips, if i called and lost i would have less than 3K. The river check may have been quite a bad move, i think i should have bet there.I guess my thinking was that i was beat and was hoping for a check down, rather than a check raise this time. It wouldn't have mattered anyway in this hand. I called the 6K and was shown pocket 8s for a flopped set and a boat on the turn. I don't believe i played this hand well, i think i should have led the turn and river, and while the outcome would have been the same, i think it was still bad poker.. -
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

I haven't looked yet, but I hate the checks.

He is loose, so he'll call you with worse hands. And he is passive, so he isn't going to bet out for you to make your check-raise unless he has a hand he was going to call with anyway (possibly one that beats you). On the turn, you can see that one more bet makes him just about pot committed, so there is no point in making a check-raise. You can raise on the turn and get all in on the river if that's your goal.

On the river, you check again, which really looks like weakness. This is a great play against a loose aggressive player, who is likely to make a bluff at you. From a passive player you don't expect a bluff, but maybe your double broken-wing has inspired him. Leaving you, of course, in this situation where you don't know what to do.

So, now, what to do (on the river, after he has pushed) depends on where you are in the tournament and what your goals are. You are clearly not yet pot committed -- if you fold you still have 9500 or so, which is 30 big blinds. Not exactly where you'd like to be, but not desperate yet. If you call and lose, you have a touch over 10 big blinds, which is pretty close to desperation time.

You've gone out of your way to induce a bluff from this passive player, and he has bet out. Does that mean that you succeeded, or that he just filled up? Damn, I hate this situation.

When I don't know, I usually fall back on my policy that I want to bet off my chips, not call them off. If I can't get any read on him, I think I lay this down. But I think that far more likely I would have bet about 3k on the river. If he comes over the top, I feel a little better about laying it down, and I'm left with 20 BBs, which is at least a little play.

------------------ Looking at your followup, now.

Ugh. At least it wasn't 33 in his hand, and he filled up on the river.

[Zag]

Oh yeah, I forgot to say that I hate the preflop raise, too. Just check and take your free flop. With a loose passive player who has already called the blind, two more BBs isn't going to chase him off. And KJ is never a hand you want to go to war with for all your chips. KQ and AJ are both easily in his range of hands, so you could even catch top pair and not know what to do.

Consider how much stronger just KQ is, here. If one of the limpers has this dominated (AK, AQ) they probably would have raised. There aren't a lot of limping hands that hold KQ over the coals as there are with KJ.

Also, taking a free flop in BB, you can bet out on baby flops and you'll usually take them. Since a baby flop has probably missed them, they won't feel inclined to defend it, and they will be more than prepared to believe you caught something, since you played for free. This is more common than taking this pot with the pre-flop raise.

[Antrax]

Ditto to Zag's second post.
Also, no offense intended, but I think you may be giving too much weight to unimportant things. It's odd, to me, that when you tell about the hand you include "my image" but you don't say what seat the limpers were in. Late position limper might have shit, but early position limper could easily dominate you.
And how exactly do you know how others perceive you? It's tempting to think that everybody else noticed what we wanted them to notice, especially if they realise our awesome playing skillz, and it's way cool to do things based on "what does he think that I think that he thinks?" but I really think you a) might not always realise how others perceive you, through no fault of yours and b) that it should take a back seat compared to other things, like knowing to choose your battles - KJs out of position with blinds that are less than 5% your stack might not be the time and place to start hitting hard. After your preflop raise and his call, when the K flops, you have no reason to assume you're not against a better king.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[MNOWAX]

[Zag]

I had noticed that Antrax's post sounded a bit harsh, then I reread mine and it sounded just as harsh. Sorry, I didn't mean to be. I hope I was at least informative.

I hope this makes up for it.

[AZu]

Aren't you the guy who badgers people for posting chestnuts?

[MNOWAX]

all i am doing is trying to improve my game. information is all i desire.
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

I was playing some Omaha Hi pot limit last night. I had a couple of amusing hands. I was playing on 3 tables and reading GL at the same time, so I wasn't paying a ton of attention. I mostly just peddle the nuts on this game, so it doesn't require a ton of analysis. These hands are just for amusement factor.

Kh Ks 4s 4c

Player before me is the perfect weak-loose player. Also, he seems pretty clueless about Omaha, and is probably taking a vacation from Hold'em (where he gets beat up for marrying his big pairs). Anyway, after a couple of limpers he raises to 4 BBs. I smell an AA hand, since it's the first preflop raise I've seen him make. I call, counting on the fact that I can get him all in if I hit a set.

The flop came up and I glanced at it, distracted by another hand I was in. I was immediately disappointed to see a lack of kings. However, when betting came to me and the probable AA before had predictably bet, I looked at it more carefully to realize that it was

Flop: 4h 6h 4d

No set of kings, but quad fours will do quite nicely. I just called and TWO additional players behind me called, also.

Turn: 4h 6h 4d Jh

My buddy bets again, again I just call, and one caller behind.

River: 4h 6h 4d Jh 7s

My buddy bets one more time, I make raise that is only twice minimum, thinking that, even if I drop the one behind me, I will probably get a call from my friend, and I certainly want to give him a chance to raise if he thinks he has something. Player behind me RAISES! Woot! My pal RERAISES all in. You just don't find opponents like these every day. I call (it's already enough to put the player behind me all in, too.) and they show AA with the nut flush on my right, and JJ for the best full house on my left. I love these guys.

So, this was 25c / 50c pot limit. For my preflop investment of $2 I pulled in a pot of $105, for $65 profit. Yeah, I think I had the right implied odds.

-----------------

I have 3h 5h 6s 8s in the SB, and there are several limpers, so I complete my bet. Flop is 2h 4c 7s. I'm busy trying to figure out if I have a straight already, or how many outs I have to a straight, while dealing with other hands that keep popping up. I don't have it, but I think I'm still a favorite over almost anything so I make a pot-sized bet and get two callers. (Quick: how many outs do I have to the nuts? Answer: 16 -- 4 aces, 3 each of 3's, 5's, 6's, 8's.). The turn is the As, giving me the nuts and a bad flush draw. I bet, one caller drops and another puts me all in. The river is a 5d, counterfeiting his wheel (which only would have chopped with me, anyway) and giving me the whole pot.

The lesson here is that the nut straight is not so great in Omaha unless you have redraws. Let me note that he did not have spades, so those were all redraws for me, also.

[Zag]

A nice result for me. What did I have?

[MNOWAX]

ok just to get thepoker itself down:

Hero SB:26950
Villian 1:BB: 41150
Villian 2 HI: 79825

V2, and Hero limp, Vi1 checks:

FLOP: 9c 9s 8c (pot $1700)

Hero Bets $1500

V1 Calls, V2 Folds

TURN: 9c 9s 8c 9h (pot: $4700)

Hero Checks, V1 Bets $3750

Hero Raises All-in to $21250 V1 Folds.
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[MNOWAX]

The problem is that you could have limped with a lot of hands in the SB. the rest is spoiler-ed for your pleasure.

Flop play makes a perfect Donk bet with a 9, as well as a big overpair. However, my feeling from the conversation is that you were planning to get raised PF when you limped, that removes most hands outside of the unlikely A9s

My likely guess is that you were looking to get raised PF so you likely had AA or KK here, with QQ being less likely but possible.

the way you played the turn makes it even more unlikely you have a 9, because frankly with a 9 you missed value by CRAI, because the way V1 sized the turn bet, he was likely planning to shove on the river.

so my guess is you had KK, or complete air, and were planning to take this pot away from him no matter what the flop.




_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

I wasn't expecting to be raised preflop, though it was a distinct possibility. The previous hand (when I was BB and he was UTG) He had raised, an over-aggressive player reraised, and I folded my Kh Qh, worried too much that I'm dominated, out of position, and don't even have significant implied odds anymore because the call would be 1/5 my stack. He did reraise all in and took it down preflop. But he was not over-aggressive, so I did not expect a raise from him preflop without an excellent hand, which is always unlikely.

I had air, for my check-raise bluff

---------

(Assuming I did have a 9, for this whole paragraph:)
By the way, I disagree that betting out on this flop with a 9 is a mistake. It would be my move something like 75% of the time. I also would never go for a check-raise on the river; the vast bulk of his likely hands with which he will still put money into the pot on the river, he would call a bet but be glad to check behind and see a showdown. If I had check-called the turn, then check-raised the river, the raise wouldn't be enough to justify the potential of losing a call. If we were deep enough that it would matter, then there are too few hands that he would call the check-raise with. (That is, if he bets the river after I check-call, it is either a bluff or a powerhouse that was headed all-in no matter what I did. I'd have to be pretty confidant of a bluff in order to make up for all the missed opportunities from check-behind when he would have called. Since he called my bet on the flop, a bluff is extremely unlikely.) I could see check-call the turn and bet out on the river, but not try for a check-raise.

[MNOWAX]

[Antrax]

What you had is the knowledge the other guy has position but no cards. Not having the 9, and not being an idiot, I would put you on an 8 (don't expect you to limp here with a pocket pair over 8). Since you limped your hand is one that can make a large hand, so it can be anything from a pair of 8s to A8s to J8o, depending on your style.
I'll now go and check the spoilers.
[edit (spoilered)]
Are you sure this was a good spot to bluff in? He'd have called you with an 8 and raised with probably any pair or even trash like T7 (BB surprise!)
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[MNOWAX]

I think thatIIt would have bee a perfect line for an overpair, which is why i guessed that. The flop bet makes it look like i've got trash, so it as kinda like a double fake out there. There's always a chance you have got air there, and you could have been trying to scare away low boats with your CR but it also means hands like 8's and higher under pairs (55-66-77) will liekly call you.

Did it work this time? yeah, but I don't think it was the best move in that spot, because his range of calling a shove in that spot is too large. My feeling is that V1 was on the bottom end of his range and had two big cards, and was trying to take away the pot on the river with a shove, whether he hit or not. What do you do if he checked the turn?
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Zag]

Now way would I have limped preflop with TT or a higher pair, at least not in the small blind with only one limper so far.

With TT or JJ and at least 3 limpers already in, I might, but not with only one.

[Antrax]

[Zag]

Who is playing WRGPT this year?

Here's a quiz. What am I holding? If you were John Pearce, with K 3, do you make this call here? Background: This is only the third hand of the tournament, and I have folded preflop on both hands previously without putting any money in. Note, though, that I see a free flop on this hand.

P.S. No fair looking up the hand on the WRGPT site.

! Table b11, Hand 3, Day 6

[novice]

I haven't done the math but my instinct is to call with K3.

[Trojan Horse]

I call, then I open my Start menu and prepare to click "Shut Down".

[Zag]

This is more about a read than about math. If you're not already ahead, then clearly the math is against you: If you're behind, then you have only 3 outs at best, and possibly only one out. What do you put me on?

Or, if you're determined to take a mathematical approach, what are all the conceivable hands I could have played this way, with a percentage for each for the chance this is how I would have played it. Then do a Baysian analysis of whether I have one of the N hands that beat you version the M hands that don't.

Or just start by listing the N hands that beat you. That's a good place to start.

[MNOWAX]

So you leave a poker problem? And I'm in the mood to analyze the hell out of this.

Early thoughts, He's a fool to not be calling here, simply because there are so many different combos in your range that he can beat when you are in the BB.

From a pure math prospective: K3 Vs a totally open range:

[Zag]

I had 35. You go home now. (All of you.) Here's the full hand.

This thing that makes this unlikely to be a bluff is how likely he is to call. Unlike the hand above, his betting pattern shows real power, so I'm not going to bluff at him. Of course, there are still a few non-bluffs that you beat: Q3, J3, T3, 93, 83, 63, 43, 23 = 32 combinations. You might even imagine I could do that betting pattern with As 5s and Ad 7d, and that brings it up to 34 combinations. The hands that beat you that I could have: 35, 55, 4d 6d, and (barely) 77, which are only 15 combinations.

So, while I don't completely hate the call, there, I don't really like it in a tournament. By that analysis, you have a 2/3 chance of winning, but that really isn't enough early in a tournament in a case where you're still in good shape if you fold but you're out if you call and lose. In a live game, where you can just buy in again, it's an easy call. But early in a tournament, I think you should lay it down.

----

Edit: I counted wrong, because I wasn't taking into account the 5 and 7 on the board. 35, 55, 4d 6d, and 77, represents only 10 combinations, which means you had more like a 77% chance. That makes it a lot tougher to lay down. But I'm still stuck on the thought that a good player doesn't push all in there without a boat. I can't really say that I wouldn't have pushed, there, with Q3, but I don't think so. Plenty of players would, though, and he didn't necessarily have reason to believe that I was a good player.

[MNOWAX]

[Zag]

[MNOWAX]

It's been awhile since us poker players have done any discussion here, so I'll cross post one from 2+2.

This is a live LL tournament played in a home cardroom.

HERO (BB): Playing TAG game, only has played two other hands since the tournament started never went to showdown.

Villain (button): Villain has been limping a lot then betting most flops, has only shown down one hand (K9o for a rivered pair of Kings). He is a regular in this tournament. I sense a loose passive preflop, more Laggy post flop.

5000 starting stacks: Blinds 100/200

UTG+2: calls 200
(folds)
V( 9000 ) button: calls 200
SB folds
Hero ( 5450 ) BB: Checks (6s4s)

Pot: 700 Flop 2c 3c 5d

Hero Checks
UTG+2 Checks
Button bets 400

Notes: Jackpot. There's a flush draw out there, so my thinking of a c/r here was risky, but profitable knowing that button would bet most flops. UTG+2 threw his cards in before I had acted, so it confirmed my decision to c/r. When villain calls, I'm putting him possible clubs, Ax suited, maybe A5o or A4o, or a medium pocket pair.

Hero Raises to 1200 total
Villain calls.

Pot: 3100 Turn 2c 3c 5d Ac

Hero Bets 1000
Villain Calls

Notes: Well ****. If he was calling with clubs, they hit. I bet 1000 to see where I was at in the hand. When he calls, I'm not as sure where I'm at in this hand as I would think a flush would have raised, and I wouldn't think a lone ace would call. Possibly two pair may call here, like A5 or A3.

Pot 5100 River 2c 3c 5d Ac 3d

Hero Checks
Villain Bets 1500

Notes: Well double ****. The board pairing didn't help things much, I don't put him on a three at all, but a flopped set could be in his range, although a little MUBS-y I think. Can he value bet two pair / low straight here? Maybe a weirdly played lone ace? Or am I more likely to see flushes here, given he limped PF and his range is rather large?

I'm not going to give the ending of the hand and what I did not to bias anyone.
_________________
The Man The Myth The Legend
MNOWAX

[Trojan Horse]

He's got a full house. Bad beat on the river. I'm gone.

[Zag]

It depends a bit on the stack positions. But if you were playing a cash game, you'd consider that there's 6600 in the pot right now and it's 1500 to call. Even if you say he is 75% likely to have a boat (which would imply, I assume, a flopped set), it's still worth a call. (You're getting a little better than 4-to-1 pots odds.)

But I don't really think he flopped a set. Either he would have slow-played the set (not uncommon with the over-aggressive types -- paradoxically: it's totally wrong for them ever to slow-play) or he would have reraised the check-raise.

So, for him to have a boat on the river, he must have had 2-pair on the flop. What could that really be? 23? 35? Does he have standards at all?

I think he has a stray 4 and your 6-high straight is good. If the 1500 is not game-changing, I call. Of course, I would have bet more on both the check-raise and on the turn, so it would have been different for me altogether.

Edit: or maybe he picked up the 2-pair on the turn, with A3. The gutshot on the flop plus his embarrassment over being check-raised might have been enough for him to make that call. (... plus the fact that the raise part of the check-raise was too small.) I guess I'm a little worried about this. Again, I would not be caught here, because my check-raise would have been a slight overbet -- to something like 1800 or even 2000, rather than 1200.