Washington claims victory; Napoleon exiled (again)

[Lepton]

Contemporary generals.

George Washington (February 22, 1732 – December 14, 1799) was the first President of the United States, (1789–1797), and led the Continental Army to victory over the Kingdom of Great Britain in the American Revolutionary War (1775–1783).

Napoleon I (born Napoleone di Buonaparte, later Napoleon Bonaparte) (15 August 1769 – 5 May 1821) was a French military and political leader who had a significant impact on modern European history.

[Scurra]

This one may show up the US/Europe divide. I would be surprised if any US'ians voted for Bonaparte (please don't all shout at once!)
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_{still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon}

[Ctuchik]

But not all Europeans will vote for Napoleon! (I didn't)

[Dented Ford]

[wordcross]

I voted Napoleon mostly because I think Washington happened to be in the right place at the right time. Some of the things that we learn about him as kids are blatantly lies, while others are exaggerated at best.

Washington was important, certainly, and probably a decent general, but he was hardly the military genius he is made out to be, nor was he the best president of our country.

Napoleon, for all that he was a rather egotistical maniac, was a military genius, a born leader, and did great things for France and many of the regions he conquered. He wasn't a terribly nice person, but, imo, greater than Washington.
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Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

[MTGAP]

[Dented Ford]

[dethwing]

Worx pretty much summed up my feelings on this, I voted Napolean.

[Amb]

WordX caused me to change my mind. I was tending toward the American guy.

[Aga*]

Historically speaking, Wordy has hit the bullseye and thus has rocketed up in my respect league.

[dethwing]

Since he said what I was thinking, does my respect go up too?

[Undercover Monk]

First off I voted Washington. I know Im American. Blah Blah Blah

No I seriously considerd this one and it was definately one of the harder choices this round. I agree that Napolean was the military genious but Washingtons presidency makes him the man in my eyes. He set the standards on how the presidency is to be run. two terms (only broken by FDR) how the cabinet was set up. He also stayed out party lines (too bad that example isnt followed) and encouraged us not to meddle in others affairs (again why arent we listening). Napolean not so much. But again Im an American.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[wordcross]

[Undercover Monk]

I will agree to disagree then.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Zag]

[Dented Ford]

[wordcross]

[Scurra]

This (very enjoyable) argument is largely why I made my comment in the first place.
In general, I think that US'ians* will say that Washington shaped the country they live in today, whilst Europeans will say that Bonaparte shaped the continent they live in today (although I imagine that fewer of them would say that, simply because they don't necessarily know!)

Personally, I still feel that Washington's achievements are somewhat overstated, and Napoleon's are under-rated from our modern standpoint, which is why I voted for Boney. But this is one of the few first-round matches where I don't really mind who wins

*at the risk of starting an entirely separate language pedantry argument - what is the right term here? The whole continent is called the Americas, so, just like I am a European, someone from Brazil is also an American.
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_{still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon}

[Coyote]

I also voted for Napoleon, and your comment in the first place stated your doubt that any Usians would choose that option. Several have now chosen it, and a couple of Europeans have picked Washington. Are you surprised yet? (Later attempts to qualify the comment with 'in general' and 'they don't necessarily know' have been noted).

Despite voting for Napoleon, I still recognise Washington's influence on the history of the U.S., and I imagine many who vote for Washington recognise Napoleon's influence on European history.

The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive, you know.

The idea that one's achievements should be placed on an over-rated/under-stated scale, and that one's placement on that scale should determine relative greatness is an interesting one, and I hope you'll expand upon that idea.

[Zag]

[MTGAP]

[MTGAP]

[Undercover Monk]

[wordcross]

[groza528]

Actually, I thought the consensus was that Washington was the "gooder" of the two.

neither is 1,
Napoleon wins 2
Napoleon Washington wins 3
Equally 4
Washington wins 5
Napoleon wins 6

I'd say that's a win for Napoleon tie.

[Scurra]

[Courk]

[wordcross]

[Scurra]

[RSA*]

Washington wasn't unusually large, but Napoleon is remembered as unusually small. So George wins definition 1.

[Zag]

[Zag]

[Dented Ford]

[Scurra]

[Zag]

[Duke Gnome]

I don't think that charges of genocide are in any way credible. The Irish Catholics were a clear and imminent threat to the security of England. Although harsh, he was no he was no harsher than the standards of his time, and certainly not as bloodthirsty as the Irish he was stacked against.

[Dented Ford]

But his stance against the absolute power of the monarchy "could" have resulted in a constitutional republic, or other workable framework. Instead, he made himself "Lord Protector" - "king" in all but name, even having coins cast with his image as a Roman emperor with laurels, and passing on the "dynasty" to his son (by nomination, since the office of Lord Protector was not "hereditary"). Hypocritically he seized the power of the king, while "pretending" that he had not, his "puritanism" was a bitter manifestation that created a virtual police state of denunciation among neighbours and having seized power, which he did for his own ends rather than any puritanical ideals, he used it absolutely. He could almost be Napoleon (not Boney, the pig in Animal Farm) but in that case Napoleon at least started out with some good intentions. Oliver Cromwell was a hateful, hateable man.

[Aga*]

[Undercover Monk]

But that kinda thing happens in all Wars. The U.S shipped equipment to Britain before we actually entered WWII. Britain and France were both considering help out the Confederacy in our Civil War. The Soviets spent decades sending men wherever we squared off. Thats part of War. countries supposedly neutral tend to help or hinder as they see benifit even if no shots are actually fired.

What makes the revolution so amazing is what happens in 1812. The British smashed us. Not much had changed and we definately came out the losing end. notably Washington wasnt around so you can see the obvious loss his strategy was.

Also Washington never tried invading Russia. Two points.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Courk]

Probably helped that you lot wore red, too.