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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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 Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:48 pm Post subject: 21 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| Taking one side as righteous victims and the other as completely evil is rarely a path to the truth. |
It isn't ever a path to the truth. Sometimes it is the truth. Seeking the truth with an implicit assumption that it must be something more balanced isn't any better. One could try to come up with a more balanced view of the Holocaust, for instance, where the Nazis aren't made out to be the bad guys. But where would that lead? Perhaps denial of it ever happening - yeah, some do that. Because the Jews just couldn't have been innocent victims, right?
And I'm not suggesting the "Palestinians" are evil. They are pawns in an evil Arab agenda to eliminate Israel. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: 22 |
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And the whole good versus evil thing just muddles up the issue.
The point is the Arab world wants Israel eliminated, but they aren't open about it, because they don't expect they'll get any support. They may have legitimate reasons for wanting Israel eliminated (I don't think so), but it isn't up for discussion. Whether anyone agrees or not with their agenda, that is their agenda, and they have set out to achieve it. Evil, shmevil - but that's the goal here. And this "Palestinian people" tactic - liberation and all that crap - is pretty effective. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: 23 |
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| Zag wrote: |
My general impression of the conflict is that the Palestinians -- at least their leadership -- are still prepared to use terror tactics, that is, intentionally targeting civilians. However, the bulk of the Israelis are at least trying to attack only the actual offenders (who, unfortunately, are fond of hiding amongst their own civilians).
.... I'm just saying that it is the message that I have learned from the mainstream liberal media. |
The media has given you that impression of the tactics they seem willing to use. What is your impression of their goals, of what they are fighting for? |
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:39 pm Post subject: 24 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| The media has given you that impression of the tactics they seem willing to use. What is your impression of their goals, of what they are fighting for? |
Oh, I agree that Hamas has a stated goal of eliminating the state of Israel, and I was pretty disgusted that the "Palestinian People" (which I put in quotes for your sake -- see below) voted them into office. However, I do believe that there are lots of people on the street who cast those votes in spite of, rather than because of Hamas' uncompromising attitude. But for whatever reason, they voted as their leaders a group with a stated goal of elimination of Israel, so they have to accept those consequences.
(Of course, any Arab of any nationality who still thinks that the elimination of Israel is a good idea is an idiot. It should be clear to anyone with two neurons to rub together that there is no way Israel is going down without turning the entire region into a big, radioactive slab of glass.)
I also believe that it is somewhat specious to say that there is no "Palestinian People" and that such a group exists only because parents have been teaching their children that it exists. Well, that looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck. For what other reason is there ever a "People?" And there certainly was a country called Palestine -- in living memory! How can you claim that those people don't exist. It looks to me as if you are cherry-picking quotes for that one.
By the way, I do think that Israel deserved plenty of the blame for the current situation. Since they declared independence in 1948, they pretty horribly oppressed the Arabs whom they sequestered on to the West Bank. It took drastic action by the PLO and others to get their plight to the attention of the world, and I don't believe Israel would ever have changed their policy if it hadn't been for terrorist attacks and external pressure (which wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been for the terrorist attacks).
Even more recently, they've done some really stupid things, IMHO. A few years ago, when the Palestinian football (soccer) team won second place in I-forget-what-significant tournament, Israel should have (reluctantly) congratulated the team and then clandestinely flooded the area with inexpensive soccer balls, cleats, and the like. Give the children living there some heroes OTHER than suicide bombers. Instead, they made it more difficult for the Palestinian team to get in and out of the country, even causing them to miss one tournament that they had intended to play in. Imagine if the Palestinian team became a world football power? It would go a long way to give people hope -- the lack of which is what creates suicide bombers. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: 27 |
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Zag, that's encouraging. One thing I have a hard time knowing is how foreign sources cover the situation here - my local media keeps telling me everyone else is horribly biased, occasionally citing things like the Guardian article Scurra linked to. So, it's nice to know the view out there is not as askew as I thought it was.
As for "The Palestenian People", I think the Palestenian authority can be considered a country today - they have a flag, they have territorial contiguity, etc. However, the problem is that they claim to have existed from long before Israel was founded, and that's just false. The basic conflict between Jews and Palestenians is that Palestenians claim they have a right over what is Israel today, and demand the "right of return" - to get "their lands" back. I would say that this is akin to Indians demanding that the US all go to Canada, except the Indians actually have a better case than the Palestenians, because they really were native to the land. Israel can never agree to this right of return, because it is akin to suicide, and even if it's the most just thing in the world (and it's not) it's just not going to happen. So, as long as the other side insists, you have a conflict. But I digress, I just wanted to explain why the argument against the existence of Palestenian people is important.
To the best of my knowledge, Muhammad al-Durrah was accidentally killed by Palestenians after being caught in a cross-fire. I seriously doubt they would murder a child for the sake of the media - what they usually do is stage "funerals" where the coffin is empty (this I can easily link to), re-pose bodies (I think this too), move bodies from morgues to bombing sites (about this I'm less sure, it was a common practice in the Lebanon war of 2006 but I'm not sure if mainstream media covered it), etc. They're not monsters, they're just fighting a propaganda war (and winning, sadly).
| Pablo wrote: |
| Maybe your examples are examples of truth (and maybe not), but they are certainly not the whole truth |
Absolutely. I read a fascinating interview with a Palestenian from Gaza where he explained why he voted Hammas. He doesn't agree with the "kill all Jews" item, but he says otherwise they're a great ruling body, they stopped the looting, they keep food prices reasonable (by severely beating anyone who charges more, but still), etc. So, I don't think the average Palestenian Joe really cares that much about whether Jews live or die, and I'm pretty sure Hammas really cares for Palestenians and is not all about killing Jews.
But it is about killing Jews, first and foremost. Otherwise, they would have sustained the cease-fire.
| Zag wrote: |
| By the way, I do think that Israel deserved plenty of the blame for the current situation. Since they declared independence in 1948, they pretty horribly oppressed the Arabs whom they sequestered on to the West Bank. It took drastic action by the PLO and others to get their plight to the attention of the world, and I don't believe Israel would ever have changed their policy if it hadn't been for terrorist attacks and external pressure (which wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been for the terrorist attacks). |
I'm not sure that's true. Israel wasn't really a democracy the first two decades of its existence. Its founders were just too terrified of the holocaust repeating, and its problems were just too big, what with fighting a survival war every couple of years, the arab boycott, etc. So, there was an election, but the same party (MAPAI, today's labour) won over and over again in an almost totalitarian fashion. Under these conditions, oppression of the arabs in the occupied territories was made possible. However, Israel was gradually learning to be a democracy, until in 1977 the Likud (the opposition) rose to power. So, people gradually stopped taking the government's word, and common opposition to the situation in the occupied territories was rising from within, even without the PLO. So, I believe we would have gotten there anyway.
And as for media bias, well, two funny quotes from the Guardian article Scurra linked to:
| The Guardian wrote: |
| Israeli air strikes hit 40 smuggling tunnels that had been dug under the border fence to alleviate Israel's blockade of the overcrowded strip. |
This is brilliant writing. Honestly, it almost makes me feel bad that Israel is trying to close its own borders against the smuggling of weapons and terrorists. All those poor guys ever did was dig under the border, and we dare ruin their humble plans. I mean, clearly the intention was to smuggle pregnant women through underground tunnels from Egypt through Gaza to Israel, so they can get better medical care.
| Quote: |
| Israel and Palestinian militant groups in Gaza observed a ceasefire for six months which began to break down in November. |
"Began to break down"? It ended and they immediately resumed firing rockets. This is like saying to someone who was diagnosed with cancer "yeah well, technically you begin to die as soon as you're born".
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Scurra
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:25 pm Post subject: 28 |
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Hey, I'm not defending The Guardian's coverage of the situation - I was merely observing that they did mention the item you cited. Since I read The Guardian, that's where I tend to see stories. I certainly don't think that they are any less biased than anyone else.
But entering into the propaganda war seems futile to me. You and I know perfectly well that there are extremists on both sides (and yes, some of them are in government on both sides) but to portray that as the "typical" position is absurd. Sadly, however, the media aren't interested in the mundane, so they actively co-operate in the propaganda war.
I think your argument regarding the "Palestinian" people is good - but surely it is no stronger than the case of the "Israeli" people in terms of that particular piece of geography - any situation where the long-standing residents were simply uprooted for the sake of politics is wrong. As with countless other cases (India/Pakistan or Iraq spring to mind!), an artificial set of lines were drawn causing horrendous local disturbance and laying the seeds for future trouble, but then those responsible for drawing the lines simply stepped away and pretended that it wasn't their problem any more.
Let me make it clear that I am not saying that the decision to create Israel was wrong. I do, however, think that the current situation was almost inevitable, but I also think that it will work itself out eventually. It's just not nice to be living in the middle of it, and I do understand that.
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New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: 29 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| Pablo wrote: |
| Taking one side as righteous victims and the other as completely evil is rarely a path to the truth. |
Seeking the truth with an implicit assumption that it must be something more balanced isn't any better. |
Seeking the truth with an implicit assumption that it could be something more balanced is way better. |
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: 30 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| Seeking the truth with an implicit assumption that it could be something more balanced is way better. |
Of course, one should be open to any finding.
Do some reading up on "Protocols of the Elders of Zion". Antisemitism is alive and well in the world, and it isn't just bigotry or hatred afflicting ignorant individuals, but is institutionalized, and is an active national agenda of many nations, particularly Arab nations. It is a moral crime, and your "balanced" response is essentially "well, maybe the victims are guilty too". |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:36 pm Post subject: 31 |
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| I'm sure there is plenty of antisemitism. Why would I question that? I see plenty of "anti-muslimism" right here in the US, along with many other kinds of bigotry. Hatred seems to come easy for humans, including religious ones. |
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Scurra
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:19 pm Post subject: 32 |
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| extro...* wrote: |
| Antisemitism is alive and well in the world, [...] |
If you had read almost any of my previous postings in threads like this, you'd know that I frequently argue the position that everything - and I mean everything! - can be reduced to "us" versus "them". To suggest that antisemitism is a somehow uniquely superior form of discrimination suggests that you really don't know much about the world. Every form of pointless hatred that has been artificially stoked up to distract people from their own problems by blaming someone else works in the same way, and, depressingly, we fall for it every time. And yes, before Pablo says anything, religious leaders like to use the technique just as much as political ones (even if I happen to think that it's got nothing to do with religion  )
There honestly isn't anything special about antisemitism over and above any other form of irrational prejudice.
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New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:50 pm Post subject: 33 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| I'm sure there is plenty of antisemitism. Why would I question that? I see plenty of "anti-muslimism" right here in the US, along with many other kinds of bigotry. Hatred seems to come easy for humans, including religious ones. |
There's a difference. I'm talking about institutionalized hatred, about it being part of school curricula, about very large and very well documented lies. The book "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a fraud, a forgery, written around 1900, and purporting to be a historical document of Jewish plans to dominate the world. It is promoted today in Arab countries, as it was by Hitler, to incite hatred toward Jews by demonstrating how they are the root cause of virtually every problem in the world. It is taught to children in schools and on state-sponsored television as being authentic. The Palestinians are the tip of the Arab anti-Jewish iceberg. Hamas, a small speck.
There is no comparison to any anti-Muslim sentiment in the US. Frankly, it sickens me that so many people are duped. Even today, I see there's a protest in DC in sympathy with Gazans. It is sad beyond words.
Last edited by extropalopakettle on Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject: 34 |
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| Scurra wrote: |
| To suggest that antisemitism is a somehow uniquely superior form of discrimination suggests that you really don't know much about the world. |
Not sure what you mean by "superior form" (depending on which I may or may not have suggested it, and thus may or may not need your enlightenment regarding the world), but tell me, what other anti-anything today approaches the magnitude of the nationally institutionalized lie-based teaching of hatred for Jews in the Arab world? |
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Scurra
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:45 am Post subject: 35 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| It is sad beyond words. |
Yes, those were the words that came to my mind too. And I realise that will sound as though I am merely taking a cheap shot at you, but I honestly think you aren't helping your argument. Essentially, you seem to be suggesting that people aren't allowed to have any sympathy for those people living in Gaza, because their political leaders happen to hold a position that you disagree with - and its inevitably a more extreme position because they consider themselves to be at war. I protested against the invasion of Iraq, but that doesn't make me a member of the Saddam Fan Club.
(And as to your specific question, I would be happy to argue that the status of homosexuality is subject to much the same institutionalised lies and distortion across the world, and women haven't made that much progress either. And apartheid surely isn't ancient history already?)
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still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:36 am Post subject: 36 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| but tell me, what other anti-anything today approaches the magnitude of the nationally institutionalized lie-based teaching of hatred for Jews in the Arab world? |
I used to think nothing. But from your comments in this thread, I'm starting to think that the teaching of hatred for Arabs in wherever-you-are (I assume Israel, but maybe not) approaches it. |
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:39 am Post subject: 37 |
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| Scurra wrote: |
| Essentially, you seem to be suggesting that people aren't allowed to have any sympathy for those people living in Gaza, because their political leaders happen to hold a position that you disagree with ... |
I have sympathy for the people of Gaza. They did not choose to be brainwashed and lied to and made pawns in the ongoing Arab war against Jews. Yes, I disagree with the positions of their leaders, such as that children should be taught from an early age to hate Jews, that they are sub-human, that they use the blood of sacrificed Gentile babies in rituals - that these things should be taught as fact to incite generations of Arabs to be willing to eliminate Jews when the opportunity arises. I have sympathy for those who fall prey to such teachings, much as I would have had sympathy for every German who fell prey to those same teachings from another source and who became a Nazi. But protests should be directed against those who continue to incite the hatred with deliberate lies, not against Israel. When the "Palestinians" are completely disarmed, and perhaps some 50 years after their leadership confesses their brainwashing and lies, maybe then there can be genuine peace. Until then, don't protest Israel defending its own people. |
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Amb
Amb the Hitched.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:32 am Post subject: 38 |
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| It made the New Zealand news, with the Green party attacking Israel for it. (The green party here is very marxist, and should be called "The watermelon party" Green on the outside, Red on the inside) |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: 39 |
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To the best of my knowledge, there are three Israelies in the Labyrinth. extro's not one of them.
Also, I resent the implication. I read an interview with a British scholar that said that Israeli arithmetic books had problems like "if you have 100 arabs to kill and you kill 60, how many arabs do you have left to kill?", and that's just a lie. There's nothing even remotely close to it, and there never was. That's not to say that my dad didn't bring me up on sayings like "all arabs have the blood of liars and thieves", but that's not something that can be helped and that message wasn't reinforced anywhere in the school system, and in high school they specifically went against it. Besides, I doubt many parents today raise their kids on similar beliefs.
Amb, I'll bite. How can Israel be blamed for actions carried out by Egypt?
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:17 pm Post subject: 40 |
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As of the time I'm writing this, CNN has an article with the new headline "9 reported killed in airstrike on Gaza mosque". The article, however, makes no mention of the strike on the mosque, and is just the previous article they had about Israeli strikes, with a new headline. No mention of the motive for striking the mosque. This again is biased and irresponsible. Does anyone believe that Israel would strike a mosque were it not holding weapons to be used against Israel? Actually, yeah, there are people who believe that, thanks to our media.
Imagine if every time the police shot someone the news reported the incident without mentioning motive. "Police shoot man standing on sidewalk". No mention of motive, or lack thereof. |
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:14 pm Post subject: 41 |
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| extro...* wrote: |
| No mention of the motive for striking the mosque. |
| The article in question wrote: |
Leaflets signed by the commander of the Israeli military were dropped over northern Gaza on Saturday morning, warning residents to "leave the area immediately" to ensure their safety.
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"Due to the terrorist actions undertaken by terrorist elements from the region of your residences against the state of Israel, the Israel Defense Forces are compelled to respond immediately in the region of your residences. For your safety, you are ordered to leave the area immediately," the leaflets say.
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An Israeli attack on Saturday killed Azkariah al-Jamal, the commander of Gaza City's rocket-launching squads, Palestinian and IDF sources said.
Another airstrike killed two Hamas militants in Khan Yunis, in southern Gaza, Palestinian officials said.
IDF Maj. Avital Leibovitch said Hamas militants had launched 20 rockets from Gaza into Israel by late afternoon Saturday. Learn about the background of the conflict »
Rockets set a house on fire in Ashkelon, damaged a kibbutz dining hall and slightly wounded two people in an eight-story building in Ashdod, according to Israeli ambulance services.
"We still see that Hamas is targeting Israeli civilians. Namely, we still did not reach the goal of crippling Hamas' launching capabilities," Leibovitch said.
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See? This is how you ruin your own credibility. I'm not saying that you aren't mostly right. But going overboard and expecting us to take your word for what is said in the article when it is clearly (I'll be kind here) an exaggeration -- this is not the path to trust.
I see that you are fully prepared to believe all the propaganda telling you that "Arab school systems are teaching their children this..." and yet you condemn them for believing "Israeli school systems are teaching their children this other..." Is it just possible that their school systems are not as systemically horrible as you have heard? And is it not also possible that there haven't been a few rogue Israeli teachers who HAVE been guilty of reporting lies as fact?
I do fear that you will read this as me "taking the Arabs side." If you are inclined to feel this way, then you really have to take stock of your own perceptions.
If I had to "pick a side," right now, it would certainly be Israel's. I do think that they are generally more honest, more trying to attack the guilty and leave the innocent alone, than any of the Arabs. And I've generally said so throughout. But I don't like to see such slant, even when it is coming from a side that I mostly agree with. But, again, if you have read everything that I wrote and didn't come to this conclusion without me pointing it out, then you need to check your own ability to read things without a bias. (If you did, then I apologize for assuming the worst.) |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject: 42 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| See? This is how you ruin your own credibility. I'm not saying that you aren't mostly right. But going overboard and expecting us to take your word for what is said in the article when it is clearly (I'll be kind here) an exaggeration -- this is not the path to trust. |
I'll get back on the rest later, but where does any of what you quote address motive for striking a mosque? What did I exaggerate? I said they put a headline about a strike on a mosque on an older article that preceded news of that, with no mention whatsoever in the article of anything relating to the strike on the mosque or the motive for it.
That same article was there earlier today. Then later there was a "Breaking Story" banner at the top of the CNN site saying that Israel launched a strike on a mosque in Gaza killing 9 people, with no story yet. Then later still the new headline was attached to the same article (unchanged) that was present before the "Breaking Story" banner. Where does it mention the motive for striking the mosque, i.e. that the mosque was a munitions depot?
You don't think "9 reported killed in airstrike on Gaza mosque" as a headline, without mention that it was a munitions depot stocked with Qassam and Grad missiles, without mention of the video of the strike showing the secondary explosions from the stocked munitions ... you don't think this creates an unfairly negative impression of Israels actions in killing people in a strike on a mosque? |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: 43 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| I see that you are fully prepared to believe all the propaganda telling you that "Arab school systems are teaching their children this..." ... |
Do you believe the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are authentic or a fraud? Are the rather substantial proofs that it is a fraud just Zionist propaganda?
Do you believe that all the videos inciting hatred toward Jews, directed at children and broadcast on Palestinian media, are just propaganda fabricated by deceitful Jews?
Is this just "propaganda" too: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007058
| Quote: |
| ... and yet you condemn them for believing "Israeli school systems are teaching their children this other..." |
I don't recall suggesting what anyone believes about what Israeli schools teach, let alone condemning them for believing it.
| Quote: |
| Is it just possible that their school systems are not as systemically horrible as you have heard? |
I didn't use the word "horrible" - that would be your perception based on the facts I mentioned. And yes, maybe they're not facts. Anythings possible. It's all Zionist lies, perhaps. Perhaps the Protocols are authentic. Perhaps the Holocaust never happened.
| Quote: |
| And is it not also possible that there haven't been a few rogue Israeli teachers who HAVE been guilty of reporting lies as fact? |
I don't doubt there have been, but I'm not talking about a "few rogue teachers". |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:30 pm Post subject: 44 |
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Right now, the ever-changing article on CNN states: "An Israeli airstrike hit a mosque in the northern Gaza village of Beit Lahiya on Saturday evening, killing 13 people and wounding 60, according to Palestinian medical sources."
Again, no mention that it was a Hamas munitions depot.
For anyone interested (and anyone who isn't inclined to dismiss it as Jewish propaganda): http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: 45 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| See? This is how you ruin your own credibility. |
In case I wasn't clear, no, I don't see, and I'm waiting for you to explain.
And, btw, I wouldn't expect anyone to accept anything I say based on any credibility I might have. |
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Gomez
candid chimera
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject: 46 |
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| Where is this article? Got a link? |
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Gomez
candid chimera
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:09 pm Post subject: 47 |
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| extro wrote: |
For anyone interested (and anyone who isn't inclined to dismiss it as Jewish propaganda):
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I would never, ever trust anything any side in any conflict says about the other side. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:04 pm Post subject: 48 |
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| Gomez wrote: |
| Where is this article? Got a link? |
Whatever's currently on the front page of http://www.cnn.com/ ... it keeps changing. Currently: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/03/israel.gaza/index.html
(again, my issue with it was the headline reading, at the time, "9 reported killed in airstrike on Gaza mosque", with no further details in the article regarding the mosque, or it being used as a Hamas munitions depot - which they still don't mention). |
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Gomez
candid chimera
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| Posted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:49 pm Post subject: 49 |
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| Sorry for being dense, but I'm a bit confused. Is anyone else reporting this other than CNN? Because I can't see how we know that there was munitions in that Mosque if no-one's saying so. |
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Scurra
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:03 am Post subject: 50 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| IAnd yes, maybe they're not facts. Anythings possible. It's all Zionist lies, perhaps. Perhaps the Protocols are authentic. Perhaps the Holocaust never happened. |
See, this is the sort of thing that makes me far less inclined to attempt to engage in any sort of serious dialogue with you - it's not a very big step from here to suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you must be a "Nazi" (as in the context of Godwin's Law.)
By all means get upset about the way CNN chose to misleadingly headline a story on their website. It seems to me, however, to be exceptionally small-minded to suggest that this only ever happens to stories designed to present Israel in an unflattering light, since that clearly isn't true.
(I can't comment on the Mosque story, as on a quick scan of UK sites I can;t find anywhere reporting that the Israelis claimed there were munitions in it, merely that it harboured militants.)
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New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:03 am Post subject: 51 |
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And now for today's lesson in Political Incorrectness.
Israel should stop trying to minimize collateral damage. Stop the fliers, stop the smaller precision weaponry, stop trying to look better in an unwinnable public relations battle. When your people and your country are being attacked on such a regular basis, the top priority should be to stop the attacks, not to look better in the eyes of the world. To that end, they should use the terrorists' cowardly tactics of hiding among the civilians against the terrorists.
When the terrorists uses civilians as cover, Israel should kill the civilians. They are no longer "innocent" when they allow themselves to be used as shields. The message should be sent to the people that protecting the terrorists, even standing idly by and allowing the terrorists to attack, will lead to repercussions. This will lead to a wave of very negative feelings against Israel for a while, but they are facing that already. However, there are several ways for this to end "well" for Israel. First, the terrorists could surrender. That's, sadly, not very likely. Secondly, the people would begin to consider the terrorists too costly to continue to allow them free reign. They may begin to strike back against the terrorists, at least in ways such as calling authorities, should any exist, to stop plans they hear about. If they do not, and the attacks continue long enough, there won't be much left in the area to use as shields, or to protect. Either way, eventually the terrorists will find it difficult to continue their onslaught.
It's not like that's going to make Israel look worse in the eyes of the people whom the terrorists are brainwashing. At best, they'll use it as an excuse to show how right they were, but again, they do that anyway. It's a cruel thing to do, but cruelty can be a necessity when everything else fails.
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:02 am Post subject: 52 |
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| Gomez wrote: |
| Sorry for being dense, but I'm a bit confused. Is anyone else reporting this other than CNN? Because I can't see how we know that there was munitions in that Mosque if no-one's saying so. |
Exactly. You've made my point. The media isn't saying so. A few outlets have, but most are not. The Israeli military clearly has. I posted earlier a link to their "youtube channel" ... http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk . Yes, they have actually taken to going to youtube to get the truth out (or then maybe it isn't the truth ... whatever). They explain it there. They show video of the actual strike, and the secondary explosions. But as far as the mainstream media is concerned, best to just say Israel struck a mosque and killed people, and leave it at that.
| Scurra wrote: |
| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| IAnd yes, maybe they're not facts. Anythings possible. It's all Zionist lies, perhaps. Perhaps the Protocols are authentic. Perhaps the Holocaust never happened. |
See, this is the sort of thing that makes me far less inclined to attempt to engage in any sort of serious dialogue with you - it's not a very big step from here to suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you must be a "Nazi" |
Zag suggested I'm
| Quote: |
| fully prepared to believe all the propaganda telling you that "Arab school systems are teaching their children this..." |
It's damn well documented, and it's no bigger step from denying that, from calling it "propaganda", to denying the Holocaust. What, is all the ample documentation of the fact just Jewish lies? Well, that's what the Holocaust deniers say.
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| By all means get upset about the way CNN chose to misleadingly headline a story on their website. |
So you think it was misleading. I'm still trying to figure out how Zag thought that quoting what he did from the article demonstrates that I exaggerated when I said it was biased and irresponsible.
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| It seems to me, however, to be exceptionally small-minded to suggest that this only ever happens to stories designed to present Israel in an unflattering light, since that clearly isn't true. |
After you've taken your head out of your ass (if ever), tell us where I suggested that. I never suggested the media has one and only one bias, but the topic of discussion here is the matter of Israel and the so-called Palestinians, and in this matter biased coverage is very much the norm, and if you can refute that with facts rather than small-minded insults, I'd be very eager to hear you do so, ya little shit.
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| I can't comment on the Mosque story, as on a quick scan of UK sites I can;t find anywhere reporting that the Israelis claimed there were munitions in it ... |
See link above. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:32 am Post subject: 53 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| but tell me, what other anti-anything today approaches the magnitude of the nationally institutionalized lie-based teaching of hatred for Jews in the Arab world? |
I used to think nothing. But from your comments in this thread, I'm starting to think that the teaching of hatred for Arabs in wherever-you-are (I assume Israel, but maybe not) approaches it. |
Somehow missed this post. I'm an American, and not Jewish (not that there's anything wrong with that). Now please state where I expressed hatred for Arabs. I've stated well documented facts. If the facts are such that they would incite hatred in you did you believe them, then that is you. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:33 am Post subject: 54 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| I see that you are fully prepared to believe all the propaganda telling you that "Arab school systems are teaching their children this..." and yet you condemn them for believing "Israeli school systems are teaching their children this other..." Is it just possible that their school systems are not as systemically horrible as you have heard? And is it not also possible that there haven't been a few rogue Israeli teachers who HAVE been guilty of reporting lies as fact? |
Sorry, but that's exactly one of those cases where you look for balance by force. The truth is the Israeli school system does not teach kids to hate arabs, and the Palestenian school system teaches kids to hate Jews. This is grounded simply on the teaching materials themselves. I don't know if this (schoolbooks in Hebrew and Arabic) is googlable or not, but things like the kids' show extro linked to earlier should be convincing enough.
| Gomez wrote: |
| Sorry for being dense, but I'm a bit confused. Is anyone else reporting this other than CNN? Because I can't see how we know that there was munitions in that Mosque if no-one's saying so. |
Well, I could link you to an Israeli newspaper if it helps, which has eye-witness accounts of secondary explosions, or you can see the video for yourself (I think the IDF spokesperson office published it).
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:40 am Post subject: 55 |
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Here's a July 2008 update to a 2002 survey of Saudi Arabian school material. It has a link to the earlier survey. Clearly documents teaching that "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is authentic.
http://www.impact-se.org/docs/reports/SA/SA2008.pdf
In general, you can find a lot here: http://www.impact-se.org/research/reports.html ... surveys of school materials from Egypt, Iran, Israel, Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia and Syria. |
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Scurra
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: 56 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| Quote: |
| It seems to me, however, to be exceptionally small-minded to suggest that this only ever happens to stories designed to present Israel in an unflattering light, since that clearly isn't true. |
After you've taken your head out of your ass (if ever), tell us where I suggested that. I never suggested the media has one and only one bias, but the topic of discussion here is the matter of Israel and the so-called Palestinians, and in this matter biased coverage is very much the norm, and if you can refute that with facts rather than small-minded insults, I'd be very eager to hear you do so, ya little shit. |
I apologise for my comment above. Reading it back, it's clear that I had misinterpreted your posting.
I still think that a leap from a headline on the CNN website (which I suspect was more likely a mistake than anything else) to Holocaust Denial is a little extreme. Sure there is biased media coverage; I just don't believe that this case is more outrageous than any other.
Without wanting to sound as though I am dodging the issue, can I ask you what your position on Tibet is?
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:21 am Post subject: 57 |
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| Scurra wrote: |
| I apologise for my comment above. |
OK, me too. I've never had much stomach for all this arguing stuff.
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| I still think that a leap from a headline on the CNN website (which I suspect was more likely a mistake than anything else) to Holocaust Denial is a little extreme. |
The jump was not from that to that. I brought up Holocaust denial in response to Zag's statement that I am "fully prepared to believe all the propaganda" about the Jew hatred taught in Arab schools. It's very well documented. And then to imply my saying so means I must hate Arabs ... this is ad hominem, really. Rather than argue it isn't so, just say that anyone who says it's so is hateful, and racist. But I digress.
Whether the particular instance I cited about CNN mentioning the strike on the mosque with no mention whatsoever of the justification ... whether that was an accident or not, I can't say. It is certainly no accident, however, that most Americans have no clue from the popular media what "Pallywood" is all about, no clue about the depraved lies being carefully and deliberately orchestrated to incite murderous hatred toward every living Jew.
And then you raise "Godwin's law". Sorry, but innaproriate. Godwin's law (according to wikipedia):
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"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." |
Also according to same article (reference not online):
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| It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact. |
Well, what else could possibly be more valid to compare to the Nazis than nations that teach their children to hate and kill all Jews?
I want this law named after me: In every internet discussion wherein a comparison is made to Hitler or the Nazis, someone will inevitably bring up Godwin's Law.
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| Without wanting to sound as though I am dodging the issue, can I ask you what your position on Tibet is? |
I don't know enough about it, but I don't think the situations are comparable. If you think they are, I'd be interested to know why. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:49 am Post subject: 58 |
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Latest CNN coverage: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/05/gaza.children/index.html
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The children have seen terrible images of tragedy: their friends injured or killed and bloodied bodies in the streets.
They are images Hassanin says he will never forget. He'll keep them stored away until he's old enough to do something about it.
"When we will grow up, we will bomb them back," a CNN translator quoted the boy saying on Hamas TV.
It's a sentiment psychiatrists in Gaza say could be responsible a frightening future -- that the violence children are witnessing will sow the seeds for future violence. |
I'm sorry, but no, little Hassanin, you won't bomb them back. That's a no-no. You will be stopped, at any cost, and with all the pity in the world there won't be enough to go around. Sorry.
And the seeds for future violence are being sown very willingly every day, in Palestinian schools and children's television. There's a simple solution: They must teach little Hassanin, and every child like him, whose fault it is, who told the lies, who elected Hamas, who preached death to every living Jew, who deliberately targeted Jewish women and children, who stockpiled weapons in mosques, who used women and children as human shields, who wanted peace and who wanted war for so many years. They have to defuse their own bomb, or it will surely blow up in their own face. Israel has no obligation to suffer the violent nonsense anymore. |
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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: 59 |
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| When Nazi Germany was defeated to the tune of 1.5 million civilian casualties, did the German people who put the Nazis in power cry for sympathy over their suffering and warn how "the violence children are witnessing will sow the seeds for future violence"? |
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: 60 |
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| extropalopakettle wrote: |
| When Nazi Germany was defeated to the tune of 1.5 million civilian casualties, did the German people who put the Nazis in power cry for sympathy over their suffering and warn how "the violence children are witnessing will sow the seeds for future violence"? |
Hitler Youth.
_________________
* These senseless ramblings brought to you by Insanity™. If you just can't figure the dang thing out, it must be Insanity™.
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