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groza528
No Place Like Home
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 Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:27 pm Post subject: 81 |
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A likely story...
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mith
Pitbull of Truth
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject: 82 |
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| But ref is the threat... you should edit his post to give you a 50 point advantage on him. |
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dethwing
DeTheeThaw
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:48 pm Post subject: 83 |
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Here's a page 3 update for characters as was asked:
General - No Force - 1 Support, 1 Force, Fortress Full
Captain - No Force - 1 Support, 1 Force, Harbor Full
Innkeeper - No Blackmail - 3 Support, 1 Blackmail, Tavern Full
Magistrate - No Blackmail - 1 Support, 1 Blackmail, Town Hall Full
Priest - Any - 6 Support, Cathedral
Aristrocrat - Any - 5 Support, 3 Gold, Plantation Full
Merchant - Any - 3 Support, 5 Gold, Market Full
Printer - Any - 10 Support
Rogue - Gold only - 2 Blackmail
Spy - No Blackmail - Change one influence square to your own
Apothecary - No Force - Swap two influences
Mercenary - Gold only - 3 Support, 1 Force
Last edited by dethwing on Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:06 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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mith
Pitbull of Truth
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:47 pm Post subject: 84 |
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| I should get bonuses for always being the first to send. |
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dethwing
DeTheeThaw
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:48 pm Post subject: 85 |
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BOARD
Tavern - 4: Mith, Mith, Mith, Ref (20) FULL
Market - 5: Ref, Mith, Ref, Mith, Mith (25) FULL
Plantation - 6: Ref, Ref, Groza, Mith, Ref, Ref (30) FULL
Cathedral - 7: Groza, Mith, Mith, Mith, Groza, Mith (35)
Harbor - 6: Ref, Ref, Ref, Groza, Ref, Ref (40) FULL
Town Hall - 7: Groza, Groza, Groza, Ref, Ref, Ref, Groza (45) FULL
Fortress - 8: Mith, Ref, Mith, Mith, Mith, Mith, Ref, Mith (50) FULL
RESOURCES
Mith: 1F, 1B, 5G
Groza: 1F, 4G
Ref: 2B, 3G
SUPPORT
Groza: 73
Mith: 64
Ref: 45
Mith:
General: 1 Blackmail --> win
Magistrate: 1 Gold --> Win
Priest: 1 Force --> Win
Printer: 1 Gold --> Lose
Merchant: 1 Force --> Win
Fortress, Cathedral, Market, 1 Force, 1 Blackmail, 5 Gold, 11 Support
Groza:
Apothecary: 1 Blackmail, 1 Gold --> Win
Printer: 1 Gold --> Lose
Mercenary: 2 gold --> Win
1 Force, 3 Support, Apothecary
Ref:
Merchant: 2 Gold --> Lose
Spy: 1 Force, 1 Gold --> Win
Rogue: 1 Gold --> Win
2 Blackmail, Spy
Ref Spy, then Groza apothecary.
Only one spot left on the board, the cathedral.
As a reminder, in case you missed it in the rules, here's 2 bits of information.
1. The game ends in the resolution phase, before getting the gold.
2. Resources gained during the final round are worth points. Each force is 5 Support, each Blackmail 3, and each gold 1. |
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referee
June 21st, 2004 Member
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:02 pm Post subject: 86 |
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Well, there aren't many good options, what with groza's throwing the clergy into mith's hands. I take one of Mith's spots in the Market.
_________________
Jan 21st, 2008: The pillaging continues.
Mar 4th, 2008: Rest in Peace, Gary Gygax. May your dice always roll a natural 20 wherever you are.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today! |
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grz*
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:55 pm Post subject: 87 |
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What's this with the throwing now? I didn't have any force; he'd have pried it away from me if I'd even tried to get it.
Ugh, endgames are messy. Give me a little time to think about this one... |
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grz*
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: 88 |
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So I was considering just cementing my town hall to prevent ref from taking it in the final round (as he should, if it gives him the win, that's totally legit.) But sadly I don't think we'd have any chance of stopping mith at that point, and I've done so much to build a decent working relationship with ref.
Swap my harbor with one of mith's cathedrals.
I plan on doing everything in my power to hold the cathedral at the end of next turn; ref, I highly recommend you pick up the apothecary for final say. |
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dethwing
DeTheeThaw
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:02 pm Post subject: 89 |
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BOARD
Tavern - 4: Mith, Mith, Mith, Ref (20) FULL
Market - 5: Ref, Mith, Ref, Mith, Ref (25) FULL
Plantation - 6: Ref, Ref, Groza, Mith, Ref, Ref (30) FULL
Cathedral - 7: Groza, Mith, Mith, Mith, Groza, Groza (35)
Harbor - 6: Ref, Ref, Ref, Mith, Ref, Ref (40) FULL
Town Hall - 7: Groza, Groza, Groza, Ref, Ref, Ref, Groza (45) FULL
Fortress - 8: Mith, Ref, Mith, Mith, Mith, Mith, Ref, Mith (50) FULL
RESOURCES
Mith: 1F, 1B, 5G
Groza: 1F, 4G
Ref: 2B, 3G
SUPPORT
Groza: 73
Mith: 64
Ref: 45 |
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mith
Pitbull of Truth
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:34 pm Post subject: 90 |
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Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything better for you to have done there. I think you've left yourself the slight possiblity that ref or I will be left in a losing position and have to play kingmaker, and I don't think securing the Town Hall would have left even that much hope.
Messy endgame. Bleh. |
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mith
Pitbull of Truth
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:00 pm Post subject: 91 |
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I wish Cordy were still playing, I feel outnumbered.  |
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dethwing
DeTheeThaw
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:58 pm Post subject: 92 |
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BOARD
Tavern - 4: Mith, Mith, Mith, Ref (20) FULL
Market - 5: Ref, Mith, Ref, Mith, Ref (25) FULL
Plantation - 6: Ref, Ref, Groza, Mith, Ref, Ref (30) FULL
Cathedral - 7: Groza, Mith, Mith, Mith, Groza, Groza, Mith (35) FULL
Harbor - 6: Ref, Ref, Ref, Mith, Ref, Ref (40) FULL
Town Hall - 7: Groza, Groza, Groza, Ref, Ref, Ref, Groza (45) FULL
Fortress - 8: Mith, Ref, Mith, Mith, Mith, Mith, Ref, Mith (50) FULL
RESOURCES
Mith:
Groza:
Ref:
SUPPORT
Groza: 73
Mith: 70
Ref: 55
Groza:
Priest: 1 Gold --> Lose
Spy: 1 Force, 3 Gold --> Win
Spy
Ref:
Printer: 1 Blackmail --> Win
Spy: 2 Gold --> Lose
Apothecary: 1 Blackmail, 1 Gold --> Win
10 Support, Apothecary
Mith:
Priest: 1 Force, 1 Blackmail --> Win
Spy: 5 Gold --> Lose
Cathedral, 6 Support
Groza Spy, then Ref Apothecary
Then game is over. |
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mith
Pitbull of Truth
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:59 pm Post subject: 93 |
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Bah.
I had the right moves, and then talked myself out of it. GG.
Here's what I sent to dethy:
| Quote: |
I can't really believe I've talked myself into this, but:
Priest: 1 Force, 1 Blackmail
Spy: 5 Gold
Here's my reasoning:
I am going to assume that ref will control the Apothecary. If I thought he might risk it and not use both Blackmail there, I could use 1B+4G and control it myself, and then hope to outguess groza for either the Priest or Spy to win. However, I think it's more likely ref will play it safe, and if I am wrong I still have similar odds (whereas if I tried to steal it and was wrong, I definitely lose).
I then have a coinflip based on whether I can guess where groza is going to put his Force. I put 1 Blackmail on the Priest, 5 Gold on the Spy, and my Force wherever he puts his Force. The option I've chosen has the added benefit that it still wins if ref tries to mess with the Priest (whereas putting the Force on the Spy leaves the Priest vulnerable).
At this point, groza can really only win one way: He needs a situation where ref can't win, and then needs ref to use his kingmaker Apothecary powers to choose him. There's two ways that can happen. If groza wins both the Spy and the Priest, and I get enough support/tokens to be ahead of ref going into his Apothecary decision, groza can secure Town Hall and leave ref the choice of denying me the Tavern (groza wins) or denying groza the Cathedral (I win). Or, if groza wins the Priest and I win the Spy, groza will still control the Cathedral going into the Apothecary decision because the better play is for me to steal ref's Market spot, leaving ref with a decision to either take the Market back (and groza wins) or take the Town Hall (and I eek out a victory if I get enough support/tokens).
It's a little counterintuitive, since control of the Spy guarantees control of the Cathedral, if we want it - however, if groza takes the Spy and I take the Priest, groza can't control the Cathedral without leaving the Town Hall vulnerable.
If groza goes through all that analysis, I am hoping he will come to the conclusion that control of the Priest is more important, and spend his Force there (or that he doesn't go through all that analysis and just assumes I will go all out on the Spy, and try some other approach).
Anyway. That's my final decision, I'm tired of thinking about this. |
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dethwing
DeTheeThaw
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:19 am Post subject: 94 |
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| Would anyone be interested in playing this again after we conclude? I'd be interested in playing myself. |
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mith
Pitbull of Truth
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:46 am Post subject: 95 |
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| I could mod. I'm not particularly interested in playing again. It's a decent enough game, but too much potential for kingmaker endgames for my taste. |
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grz*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:42 pm Post subject: 96 |
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| I propose a house rule that any councilors who are not won as the result of a tie should be up for negotiation by the players that tied on them. |
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mith
Pitbull of Truth
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:06 pm Post subject: 97 |
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Would make for a slower game... and the Bid Refund optional rule would seem to take care of at least some of the motivation for the house rule (not wasting tokens in the case of ties).
I wasn't particularly a fan of negotiation for this game. (Actually, I'm not a fan of negotiation for *most* games, because I always try to take advantage of any negotiating I can do and it usually detracts from my enjoyment. Diplomacy and Settlers are the obvious exceptions.)
Anyway, if I'm running the game I'll run it with whatever rules the players want to agree to. Just my two cents. |
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mith
Pitbull of Truth
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:08 pm Post subject: 98 |
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(Btw, groza, your best play as far as maximizing your score goes is to secure the Town Hall. It also has the side benefit of allowing me to win in the event that ref became a hermit and doesn't use the Apothecary before dethy declares a deadline.
See? I didn't want to say that, but I had to.  ) |
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dethwing
DeTheeThaw
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:25 pm Post subject: 99 |
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| Yeah Groza, we're at the finish line here, make your choice soon, eh? |
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grz*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: 100 |
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Pah, this is more frustrating than I thought. I didn't realize I was so close to actually winning. If you guys had tied on your apothecary bid, I would have won this game; as it is I don't think I can even cinch second.
I hate playing kingmaker. I'm going to end up in third either way, unless ref doesn't submit, so I'm going to leave it up to chance. I'm flipping a coin two-sided die. If it comes up 1, steal a town hall from ref. If it comes up 2, steal a cathedral from mith.
| Dice Roll: | Original Roll String: 1d2
1 2-Sided Dice Results: 1
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grz*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:55 pm Post subject: 101 |
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| Town hall it is. |
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dethwing
DeTheeThaw
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:08 pm Post subject: 102 |
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BOARD
Tavern - 4: Mith, Mith, Mith, Ref (20) FULL
Market - 5: Ref, Mith, Ref, Mith, Ref (25) FULL
Plantation - 6: Ref, Ref, Groza, Mith, Ref, Ref (30) FULL
Cathedral - 7: Groza, Mith, Mith, Mith, Groza, Groza, Mith (35) FULL
Harbor - 6: Ref, Ref, Ref, Mith, Ref, Ref (40) FULL
Town Hall - 7: Groza, Groza, Groza, Ref, Ref, Groza, Groza (45) FULL
Fortress - 8: Mith, Ref, Mith, Mith, Mith, Mith, Ref, Mith (50) FULL
SUPPORT
Groza: 73
Mith: 70
Ref: 55 |
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grz*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:09 pm Post subject: 103 |
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| I'd be willing to settle for getting the bid back. That raises the additional question of "Can you choose not to use a particular piece to bid, thus hoarding them for one big round?" |
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dethwing
DeTheeThaw
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:34 pm Post subject: 104 |
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| i would say yes, but remember you can't bid on more than 6 advisors anyway. |
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dethwing
DeTheeThaw
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:41 pm Post subject: 105 |
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on second thought, the rules explicitly state you have to use all your resources every round.
And you won't get patronage....I don't think refunds adds much to the game, but I'd give it a try. |
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mith
Pitbull of Truth
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:42 pm Post subject: 106 |
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| Quote: |
| If you guys had tied on your apothecary bid, I would have won this game; as it is I don't think I can even cinch second. |
We weren't going to tie on the Apothecary. The only bid I considered sending there was 1B+4G - which wins if ref doesn't send 2B and I guess where you put your Force (I use my Force on the other of Cathedral/Spy, ensuring that you're only ahead 4-3 and I can make it 4-3 in my favor with the Apothecary), probably makes me the kingmaker if I don't guess right (since I only have 1G left to spend elsewhere, and presumably ref gets enough Support/Tokens to be ahead of me before I use the Apothecary, which means I can either swap you out of the Town Hall and give him the win or swap him out of the Market and give you the win - I'd probably given it to ref since I'd finish a closer second), and makes me look ridiculous if ref does sent 2B.
(Unfortunately, even if I had correctly predicted what ref would do on the Apothecary, I was wrong about what you were going to do and still would've guessed wrong with my Force. Pah.)
[My favorite scenario was where I correctly predict groza's use of Force, while ref spreads himself out in an attempt to get as much Support/Token love as possible. I steal on the Market (for a 50 point advantage on him!), and the best ref can do with the Apothecary is swap it back (for a 50 point advantage on me!), so I end up with 20+35+50+70 = 175, while ref gets 25+30+40+45 = 140 + a max of 34 (10 from the Printer, 8 from the Merchant, Aristocrat, and Mercenary - he only had 4 Tokens to spend, since he had to use one on the Apothecary), for a total of 174.]
I like the house rule implied groza's additional question, whatever the official rules say. It's unlikely players would hold back all that often, but the option is interesting. |
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mith
Pitbull of Truth
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:52 pm Post subject: 107 |
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(Oh, and this isn't a kingmaker situation. You taking at the Cathedral would have left *you* in the winning position if ref failed to submit a move, but if he does make a move he wins no matter what you do.
If, however, I had spent my Gold elsewhere and gotten more than 10 in Support/Token value, it would have been. Or if ref hadn't gotten the Printer/anything else, we could have tied.) |
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mith
Pitbull of Truth
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:55 pm Post subject: 108 |
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| By the way, Michelle and I have started a small collection of board games, and there are a few that might be suited to forum play. If you guys are interested in trying something else, I could type up some information about them at some point (after the next Revolution game, since dethy should get a chance to play). |
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grz*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:56 pm Post subject: 109 |
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Yeah, I figured out my error right after I posted it. I will be very, VERY upset with myself if ref ends up not submitting  But I highly doubt that.
To any extent, this at least keeps the margin a bit closer so I'm slightly happier with this outcome. |
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referee
June 21st, 2004 Member
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:40 am Post subject: 110 |
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Counting on a timeout is not reasonable, really. I managed to find a winning swap for me, and that's what I'm going to do. Just this one, though. If it hadn't been there, I'd have been quite upset that I had lost to a coin flip. In that situation, if you can't improve your position, one should do a neutral move and let things take their course.
In any case, the winning move is this: One of mith spaces in the Cathedral is swapped with one of mine in the Harbor (Plantation would have worked, too).
Well played you two (you 2.5, shame she left), I wasn't sure at all I could have pulled it out.
Mith, In the last round I said the thing with the Apothecary, but I figured last place in points, I'd have to take some risks and hope you didn't bother to try for the Apothecary when I had you dominated there. It worked, but I wasn't sure I had done the right thing.
_________________
Jan 21st, 2008: The pillaging continues.
Mar 4th, 2008: Rest in Peace, Gary Gygax. May your dice always roll a natural 20 wherever you are.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today! |
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mith
Pitbull of Truth
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:20 am Post subject: 111 |
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| Quote: |
| In that situation, if you can't improve your position, one should do a neutral move and let things take their course. |
"Improve your position" means different things to different people, and there are situations where there is no such thing as a "neutral move". You also have the problem in some games where it is apparent well before the end of the game that a particular player can't win/will finish in a particular position (if anything other than winning matters) - by your reasoning, should such a player "quit"? Or should such a player maximize their score/continue playing whatever strategy they were playing/etc.?
Kingmaker situations are annoying, but even in situations where there is a "neutral" move and no advantage to the player making the decision (whether in placement or even in score - certainly not hard to imagine situations where a third party could have a kingmaker situation which can't change his own score but can cause either of the others to win), I have a hard time declaring that a player should do something. The way the kingmaker makes the decision is just as much a part of the game as anything else.
(Even if I'd had 11 more points here, though, one could argue that groza securing the Town Hall was the correct decision on the basis that it maximized his score. One could argue that there are only two "legitimate" uses of the Spy - securing the Town Hall and taking control of the Cathedral - and making any other move would be playing against the "spirit" of the game. One could argue that one or the other of us worked better with groza throughout the game, and thus groza "picking" that player as a reward for that cooperation would likewise be legitimate. One could argue that the game was close, there were two possible outcomes, and since kingmaker situations are annoying anyway the only fair way of dealing with them is to flip a coin. Those are all potentially valid positions, and were I to lose a game because of such a decision I wouldn't blame the kingmaker, I'd blame the situation.) |
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referee
June 21st, 2004 Member
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:47 am Post subject: 112 |
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That is a valid view, and of course there's no hard and fast rules about that. What I was saying is that a coin flip shouldn't be the reason to pick a move over another, even less when it can tip the victory between two third parties. One should have a reason for every move, and if they can't decide, maybe (just maybe) it's because neutrality is the best thing.
But hey, I call'em as I see'em. And you of course do the same.
_________________
Jan 21st, 2008: The pillaging continues.
Mar 4th, 2008: Rest in Peace, Gary Gygax. May your dice always roll a natural 20 wherever you are.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today! |
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dethwing
DeTheeThaw
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:32 pm Post subject: 113 |
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BOARD
Tavern - 4: Mith, Mith, Mith, Ref (20) FULL
Mith 20
Market - 5: Ref, Mith, Ref, Mith, Ref (25) FULL
Ref 25
Plantation - 6: Ref, Ref, Groza, Mith, Ref, Ref (30) FULL
Ref 30
Cathedral - 7: Groza, Mith, Mith, Ref, Groza, Groza, Mith (35) FULL
No one
Harbor - 6: Ref, Ref, Ref, Mith, Ref, Mith (40) FULL
Ref 40
Town Hall - 7: Groza, Groza, Groza, Ref, Ref, Ref, Groza (45) FULL
Groza 45
Fortress - 8: Mith, Ref, Mith, Mith, Mith, Mith, Ref, Mith (50) FULL
Mith 50
Total on board:
Ref 95
Mith 70
Groza 45
Final Totals:
Ref: 150
Mith: 140
Groza: 118
Congrats to Ref! Good game everyone. |
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grz*
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: 114 |
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| I do think there are times when a coin flip is the *best* way to choose a move as well. I brought up Diplomacy for a previous point we discussed last night, but it applies here too. I'm considering the case of a "50-50" situation in Diplomacy, where you are to attack (or defend) one of two adjacent supply centers. Sure, maybe one or the other is a "better" move (sets you up for better momentum or easier defense the next round) but one might also say that that's the move that's more likely to be blocked. Occasionally I can get a decent read on the players, but if not I'll just arbitrarily say I'm doing one or the other, send them into a second-guessing fit, and flip a coin. |
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Cordelia
Daedelia Member
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| Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:02 pm Post subject: 115 |
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| Good job on the victory there, ref. I think the game has a small juggernaut quality to it, but I have suggested it as an interesting game to a few people. I still think that SJ could have produced the game without the gameboard and cubes, and probably for a lot cheaper, too. I'm not sure why they were necessary. |
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dethwing
DeTheeThaw
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| Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:49 am Post subject: 116 |
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| I agree. It's a nice game. But 40 bucks? Too much. |
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