How Can White Win Again?

[THUDandBLUNDER]

[Coyote]

As much as I love chess problems, I've always had trouble solving end-game studies. On the other hand, I hate seeing this study ignored, so I'll toss out a few tentative thoughts to get the ball rolling.

Pluses (for white): Two passed pawns, and the WK can release two more in a few moves. BK is somewhat confined, and BR is tied to defending Pf2.

Minuses: Four passed pawns for black, two of them well-advanced. Stopping both of them could be tricky, especially considering black's main threat, Rb1+ followed by f1Q.

So here's a first attempt: 1.Re8+ Nf8 2.RxN+ Kh7 3.RxP+ KxP 4.RxP+ Kg5

At this point I believe white can control the f-file well enough to give WK time to capture the c/d pawns and promote his own pawns.

My problem with this approach is that if black declines the hP on his third move and instead plays 3....Kg6, I can't see a good option for white.

So, does anyone have any alternate approaches here?

[raekuul]

I'm not the best Chess Player in the world, but I know how to avoid check.

Let me take a crack at this...

Thoughts as WHITE:

I could check Black with my Rook, but with that rook up my byte guarding that pawn, I'd end up losing a turn in the end, maybe 2. On the other hand, if I can lure out his rook without getting checked, that's a free pawn. I can't threaten both the F and H pawns right now, but the pawn on F needs the Rook to move before I can take him. Leaving my bishop alone feels like a good idea.

The more I look at this, the less I like having my King out on B like that. I could go hide on A, but that just slows everyone down. I guess my first move should be 1. Kc7

Thoughts as BLACK:

I don't like this. I don't like this one bit. My king is stuck behind pawns, that rook is stuck guarding the pawn, and now I can't buy a turn using 1. ... Rb1+. I could try to pressure his rook with f5, but then he'll just check me outright.

Why is my Knight where he is? He'll be a lot more useful... OH. Oh crap. Yeah, I think the knight stays PUT for now. I'm going to need an escape route, so I'll force the check by making it 1. Kc7 f5

[THUDandBLUNDER]

[Antrax]

I didn't ignore it, I just couldn't figure out where to start. Coyote, in your first sequence, black's third move should be 3..Kg6 which forces promotion. My other problem with that sequence is just that it's thematically wrong, usually you don't solve these problems by playing "normally".
I think my best idea that still doesn't solve it is something like
1. Bf4 Rb1+ 2. Ka7 f1=Q 3. Re8+ Nf8 4. RxN+ Kh7
and that's about it. I think the gist of it is correct (at least, it has that appeal), but I can't figure out exactly what idle threat is the one that black won't be able to stop in time.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[THUDandBLUNDER]

[Antrax]

Sounds promising but I couldn't find it
[edit]
Oh, you mean something like
5. Rxf7+ Kh8 6. Rxd7 ? Or is there a prettier line?
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[THUDandBLUNDER]

[raekuul]

[THUDandBLUNDER]

[Zag]

[THUDandBLUNDER]

[Zag]

As Antrax said, these things always include some twist that seems like a bad move at the time. I'm going to guess that you need to let black queen a pawn, but you manage to keep the queen from hurting you.

Afternote: I'm not going to spoiler this, because it ends badly. But maybe some part of it will inspire someone.

How about this start?
1. Re8+ Nf8
2. RxN+ Kh7
3. RxP+ KxP (or Kg6)
4. Rxd7P Rb1+
5. Kc7 (note, that's the only place you can't be checked in one move by the Q) f1#Q
6. Rh7+ KxR
7. d7

No, this falls to 7. .. Rd1 8. d8#Q RxQ 9. KxR Qd1+ and white is too far behind.
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[3iff]

1. Re8+ Nf8
2. RxN+ Kh8 (You mean Kh7)
...

I don't think that gets us anywhere...but I'm not getting anywhere either.

[Zag]

Right. Thanks. I've edited.

Does anyone else think that T and B has omitted a piece?

I'm not completely sure why I bother. If Coyote couldn't get it, then it's certainly over my head.
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[THUDandBLUNDER]

[Zag]

Another approach that also doesn't work.

1. Re8+ Nf8
2. RxN+ Kh7
3. Bf4 Rb1+
4. Kc7 f1#Q
5. RxP+ Kg6
6. Rg7+ Kf5 Dang! The sneaky black king gets away, and I lose my bishop for no gain.

How about this: Offer to upgrade black's knight to be a rook, for free!!
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[raekuul]

If it costs us a bishop, it's right out since that'll free up the pawn on H

[Zag]

Yeah, but by "cost a bishop" I meant via the Q, which puts us in check at the same time. With that pawn needing 2 moves to promote, I just can't see that helping once black has a queen. With 2 moves, he can reach anywhere on the board.
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[Jack_Ian]

[Coyote]

Okay, 'ignoring' was probably the wrong word to use--but I figured that offering some plausible attempt, even if wrong, might break the ice and get some dialogue started. Looks like I was right.

However, I'm still not ready to give up on my attempt, normal though it may be. After 1.Re8+ Nf8 2.RxN+ Kh7 3.RxP+ Kg6, how about 4.Pg7?

4.....Rb1+ (KxR 5.Ph8Q Rb1+ 6.Kc7 Pf1Q leads to the same position)
5.Kc7 Pf1Q
6.Ph8Q KxR
7.Qh7+ Kf8
8.Qxd7

At this point, black has no good checks, his king is fully open to attacks, and white's forces seem well-placed to both advance the d6P and hold back black's hP.

Refutations are welcome. Finding something wrong with this approach might give clues to the right solution.

[Zag]

Why can you count on Kg6 and not KxP?
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[Coyote]

Read post #2 again, Zag. I was counting on KxP. It was Kg6 I was having trouble accounting for. My last post was just an attempt to resolve that problem.

PS I just noticed my notation in that earlier post wasn't entirely clear. White's fourth move should be 4.Rxf6+ (as opposed to Rxd7.)

PPS Also just noticed that I gave 3....Kg5 as black's third move when of course I should have given Kg6. Editing now...

[Zag]

Hmmm. I may have read that, but didn't get it. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "controlling the f column." So after 4 moves we have this, right? I still don't see a slam dunk for white, here.

[3iff]

Zag. I got to that position also and saw no way to progress.
I'll have another look through the last few posts to see if anything 'appears'. Decided to read all the posts first to see if any insights came to pass...seems not.


3...Kg6 doesn't look right. Why give the chance of allowing the H pawn to promote? Better to kill it leaving white with less prospects. Black can essentially promote his F pawn at any time and white can't prevent that happening.

[THUDandBLUNDER]

[3iff]

If that's the case, then...

Rf7 Rb1+
Kc7 Pf1=Q
RxQ RxR
KxP

leaves black with a difficult task of queening the H pawn while white will pin hopes on their D pawn. The White bishop guards H2 and seems difficult to dislodge while trying to stop the D pawn getting to D8...and the C pawn waits in the wings should black need to sacrifice his rook.

Comments?

[THUDandBLUNDER]

[3iff]

[Zag]

Ok. Starting from here

[THUDandBLUNDER]

Zag, dunno how much feedback you want, but 8. Kc7 and 8. Kc8 both lose.
In the latter case, 8...Rxh2 mates in 9 and Rg8+ is mate in 20
In fact, in spite of Black's previous moves he can still mate in 11 after 12. a6
BTW, if 9. Kc7 then Rg7 is not check.
Perhaps you meant 9. Kxd7, in which 9...Rg2 still mates.

:

[Zag]

I'm glad for lots of feedback! Thanks.

Yeah, I think I imagined an extra move for white in there, where he took the d7 pawn magically. Of course, that screwed everything else up. I'll look some more, later.
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[Coyote]

How does this look? (starting from the position in post #30):

1.Rxf2 RxR
2.BxR Ph2
3.Be1 Ph1Q
4.Ba5 Qa1 (attacking the a4P)
5.Bd8+ Kf5
6.Pa5 Qc3
7.Bb6

And now black has no way to stop the aP from advancing to promotion (short of trading his queen for the pawn).

[THUDandBLUNDER]

Yes, that looks pretty good!

[Zag]

Brilliant! I looked at that start, got as far as your step 3, and gave it up as hopeless. There are no better moves for black at any point, that I can see, though I've found some worse ones.
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[3iff]

Zag...well done. I wasn't really seeing much of that sequence, there again, I'm not too good at endgames..

[Antrax]

No offense to Zag, but I think the difficult part was solved by Coyote. That's why I don't really like this problem, there's a lot of chaff to get out of the way before you get to the actual aesthetic part, at least IMO.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick!

[3iff]

Ah, wasn't looking closely enough...Congrats to Coyote too.

Agree that the problem was a bit long winded, although rescuing a win from an almost impossible position is always good.

[Zag]

Antrax is incorrect. The whole thing was solved by Coyote. I was just the secretary, capturing his mid point and writing a lot of incorrect proposals.
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