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AcidFast
Daedalian Member
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wordcross
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 Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: 2 |
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| AcidFast wrote: |
| Thanks again, Islam and Mohammed, for a 1400-year legacy of fear and hatred and violence. |
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Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? |
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:48 pm Post subject: 3 |
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I think it is interesting that Islam, which is 600 years younger than Christianity, is right where Christianity was 600 years ago. It was dominated by hate-mongers who ruled with brutality and fear, used torture to extract confessions of anyone who spoke out against them, and ruled with a thoroughly corrupt and oppressive regime.
I'm not apologizing for the state of Islam in the world, but I think that characterizing it as 1400 years of fear and hatred and violence is a little over the top. |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject: 4 |
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I almost agree with Zag.
I think any group will resort to these tactics when they are opposed enough. I think that overall overcoming oppression makes a group significantly stronger. I think evil men then continue the pattern with the strengthened group in order that they might push personal vendettas.
I don't think it's limited to religious groups either.
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The enemy's base is down. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:19 pm Post subject: 5 |
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It's always SO much easier to see the evil in groups that you are not part of.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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AcidFast
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:12 pm Post subject: 6 |
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Of course it is, and on at least two levels:
First, no one wants to believe that there is evil in a group they are a part of, because it means that maybe you have to admit that you are somewhat evil yourself. Your brain is hard-wired to be averse to such thoughts, and paints your viewpoints and perception in a way that enables you to ignore this potentiality.
Second, if you are part of a group, you are likely exposed to the groups collective beliefs and standards way more than you are exposed to any opposing ones. So, the sheer volume of information that you have concerning your groups 'evilness' comes mostly from the group itself, giving you a biased opinion.
Muslims are not immune to this phenomenon, either. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:25 pm Post subject: 7 |
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Another dynamic that takes place is that if a member of any group does happen to recognize evil within that group, he is likely to be ostracized and seen as disloyal (or worse) for expressing that recognition. Seeing the faults of one's own group is highly discouraged.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:30 pm Post subject: 8 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| Another dynamic that takes place is that if a member of any group does happen to recognize evil within that group, he is likely to be ostracized and seen as disloyal (or worse) for expressing that recognition. Seeing the faults of one's own group is highly discouraged. |
Rightfully so too. Wouldn't it be more accurate--or at least more eloquent--to say, "it's always SO much more difficult to see the evil in groups that you are part of"?
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The enemy's base is down. |
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AcidFast
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: 9 |
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Pablo, you're right, I hadn't thought of that one.
Chaz, interestingly, I guess that is what I was talking about - seeing the evil in your own group, when Mike had commented on seeing the evil in another group. Oops. Different idea, but only slightly, and still relevant.
And maybe my comment was over the top. I get emotional about this, and this is why:
I JUST WANT THE VIOLENCE TO STOP. I think that much of Islam is in denial that there is a problem with violence and oppression and intolerance deep in its religion. They can't make moves to fix a problem that they won't acknowledge. |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject: 10 |
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| AcidFast wrote: |
Pablo, you're right, I hadn't thought of that one.
Chaz, interestingly, I guess that is what I was talking about - seeing the evil in your own group, when Mike had commented on seeing the evil in another group. Oops. Different idea, but only slightly, and still relevant.
And maybe my comment was over the top. I get emotional about this, and this is why:
I JUST WANT THE VIOLENCE TO STOP. I think that much of Islam is in denial that there is a problem with violence and oppression and intolerance deep in its religion. They can't make moves to fix a problem that they won't acknowledge. |
I agree on all points. I just think Pablo's way of saying it could be misunderstood as "it's easy to imagine evil in groups that you are not a part of". That's also true, but it distracts from the real issue.
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The enemy's base is down. |
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wordcross
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:28 pm Post subject: 11 |
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| AcidFast wrote: |
| I think that much of Islam is in denial that there is a problem with violence and oppression and intolerance deep in its religion. They can't make moves to fix a problem that they won't acknowledge. |
I think a bigger problem than that is just a fundamental lack of understanding about Islam both within and without the Muslim world. It means that people outside of the Muslim world are more willing to attribute the problems over there as stemming from the religion and it means that people within the Muslim world are more willing to justify their corruption and violence with isolated quotes from the Qur'an and Sunnah. And that people don't know any better to challenge people who would do either.
And this has been like this for long enough that misinformation has become systemic and entrenched. This makes it harder to educate people because it's not enough to just give them the right information, you have to convince them that what they think they know isn't actually true.
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Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? |
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AcidFast
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:23 am Post subject: 12 |
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I use the word "religion" a bit loosely, I suppose. It's hard for me to wrap my brain around a religion that is also a state (and vice versa). Is theocracy the word I am looking for? I'm not sure. Anyway...
| Quote: |
| ...people outside of the Muslim world are more willing to attribute the problems over there as stemming from the religion... |
It seems to me that most of the problems 'over there' ,as well as the problems that are brought 'over here' from the Islamic world, are caused (whether directly or indirectly) by the theocracy . Am I wrong to think this? I also think that, maybe, the fact that the religion and the state are one and the same may be a large part of the problem. Your statement above smacks of the type of denial I am talking about.
Even if we set aside all of the violent and horrendous terror attacks attributed to that particularly extreme interpretation of Islam, we are still talking about a theocratic system that abuses and oppresses women and minorities, is intolerant of other religions and political systems as well as any criticism of itself, and suppresses questions and independent thought.
Since it seems we are discussing this now, I want to say this: I know many Muslims, and most of them are peaceful, gentle people. I understand that most Muslims are not terrorists and that most Muslims abhor terrorism. I further understand that there are many more passages in the Qur'an that deal with brotherhood and peace across nations and races than deal with violence.
The more I write, the more I find myself coming back to the thought about the religion and the state being one. Is it possible that this is the main problem? Is it from this combination that the problems in the Islamic world arise? Do you think that religions tend to frown upon scrutiny and criticism, oftentimes considering it an affront to whatever god they worship, and a show of a weakness of faith? I think that they do, but of course, it's a matter of opinion. In Islam, (as in the west, before the separation of church and state) these aspects of a religion could become law and result in punishable offenses.
That last paragraph is simply speculation. Your feedback is appreciated.
Thanks,
AF |
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Scurra
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:30 am Post subject: 13 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| It's always SO much easier to see the evil in groups that you are not part of. |
And also much harder to see the good, because Us versus Them discourages that as well.
AcidFast, I think you are right on the button with the "Church and State as one" case. I've long thought that one of the reasons Christianity survived in Western Europe was because there was already a strong political structure and the religion was only ever allowed to exist alongside it, and rarely managed to usurp it. Our Bishops and Cardinals certainly moved in the corridors of power, but they weren't the Kings and Princes Indeed, the smart rulers were the ones who merely used it as another tool in theri arsenal, keeping control of it without making the mistake of taking charge of it. Even Henry VIII was never an "Anglican" (at least not in the sense that we understand it today), he was simply a canny politcal operator.
Sure there were times when the political leaders failed to understand this and tried to take the relgiious controls as well, and, in general, they failed (in longer term, at least.) And vice versa.
I do not dispute the story that kicked off this thread. Likewise, I don't dispute the fact that Protestants burnt Catholics at the stake in England in the past (and vice versa.) But I don't dispute the Holocaust or the Rwandan genocide either. People do really horrible things to other people - and the excuse they use is rarely the real reason.
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still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:56 pm Post subject: 14 |
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| Scurra wrote: |
| Pablo wrote: |
| It's always SO much easier to see the evil in groups that you are not part of. |
And also much harder to see the good, because Us versus Them discourages that as well.
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A. I disagree. Look up the real meaning of the term "chauvinism". (Perhaps you don't need to, but most people don't know what it really means). I believe it is a very prevalent trait. Besides, I have no idea how "us vs them" would have that effect of making it hard to see the good. Counter-intuitive to me.
B. Even if I agreed with you on this, I'm not so sure it would be a bad thing that it would be difficult to see the virtues in one's own group. Maybe there'd be more humility.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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AcidFast
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject: 15 |
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| Pablo, I think you may be mistaken as to what Scurra meant. It reads as if you are disagreeing with the statement as if "much harder to see the good" referred to seeing the good in one's own group, while I think that Scurra intended to say that it makes it harder to see the good in another group. |
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AcidFast
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:11 pm Post subject: 16 |
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| By the way, thank you: I did not know the true meaning of chauvinism until today. |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:34 pm Post subject: 17 |
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"Chauvinism" just joined "Propaganda" in my interesting words bank.
| AcidFast wrote: |
| Even if we set aside all of the violent and horrendous terror attacks attributed to that particularly extreme interpretation of Islam, we are still talking about a theocratic system that abuses and oppresses women and minorities, is intolerant of other religions and political systems as well as any criticism of itself, and suppresses questions and independent thought. |
Shift your view to that of a Muslim for a minute, and imagine that you truly think that women should be oppressed. I know this is nearly impossible to do (because our society finds the opposite to be true), but put on some goggles and look at it from their stance. Please note: I'm not saying what they're doing is right; I don't think it is, but it doesn't matter for the following argument.
From their stand point, we're the terrorists. We come to their country with our government and democracy and encourage them to usurp their political leaders. We occupy their streets with our armed soldiers. We've bombed their buildings.
If it's too hard to see my point, imagine if they were bigger than us, and they were doing the same thing to us. If they came here, and occupied our streets. If they were doing this to help us see the light about our evil democracy and encouraged us to switch to their political structure.
Can you honestly say that we wouldn't resort to the things they're resorting to?
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The enemy's base is down. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:54 pm Post subject: 18 |
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| AcidFast wrote: |
| Pablo, I think you may be mistaken as to what Scurra meant. |
Thanks, AF. I think you're right. I misread it and therefore my response was inappropriate. Sorry, Scurra. I guess I agree with you after all.  But hey, at least I got to demonstrate that I know what chauvinism means! 
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:04 am Post subject: 19 |
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I'll just leave this here.
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And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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The Ragin' South Asian
Head Poncho
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:16 am Post subject: 20 |
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| I'd like to be upset, but I played Cowboys and Indians, Americans vs Nazis, games where one kid was a serial killer sneaking up on other kids, and I've thus far not shot anyone with an arrow or six shooter, haven't stormed Normandy or sent anyone to a concentration camp, or committed serial murders. Kids play games based on things they hear about and doesn't really mean anything. |
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:53 am Post subject: 21 |
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I'm with you on that RSA.
If anything, I think it's probably a healthy outlet to help these kids deal with exposure to such things.
The tragedy is that they are aware of it in the first place and given the level of detail that they included in their video, they've probably actually seen such promotional videos. |
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject: 22 |
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| The thing that is sick is a culture making heroes of suicide bombers. The cowboys and indians analogy is making a culture of warriors, something that has been happening since the beginning of humanity. Suicide bombers is a new and sickening thing. |
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wordcross
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:31 pm Post subject: 23 |
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A New and Sickening thing you say?
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: 24 |
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I'm with RSA.
One man's guerrilla is another man's freedom fighter.
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The enemy's base is down. |
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:57 pm Post subject: 25 |
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I disagree that's the same thing. The intent of the kamikaze attacks was to target high-value military targets, for the purpose of saving more lives (of their side) than it costs. History includes numerous suicide missions for military purposes, either to hold off an enemy long enough for the suicide's comrades to escape or to distract an enemy long enough for the suicide's comrades to attack a vulnerable spot.
Suicide bombers target non-military targets and the intent is merely to cause terror. It doesn't have any strategic value; it's just vindictive and evil.
I'm not saying that the other side in these conflicts is without fault -- oppressing an entire people enough that they feel that suicide bombers is a reasonable option is fault enough. |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject: 26 |
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| Quote: |
| I'm not saying that the other side in these conflicts is without fault -- oppressing an entire people enough that they feel that suicide bombers is a reasonable option is fault enough. |
Begging the question. IMO if we pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan and closed all our bases around the world, they would still target us. Other than that, I agree.
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And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between. |
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject: 27 |
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| By 'oppressing' I was thinking more about Israel's attitude towards the Palestinians. The western world pretty much ignored the situation until the actions of the PLO, etc. Even the "terrorist" actions brought them attention, at least. I would have more sympathy for them if they had at least attempted to confine their actions to military and government targets, but I still understand how bad their situation had been. |
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The Ragin' South Asian
Head Poncho
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:53 pm Post subject: 28 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| The thing that is sick is a culture making heroes of suicide bombers. The cowboys and indians analogy is making a culture of warriors, something that has been happening since the beginning of humanity. Suicide bombers is a new and sickening thing. |
I certainly wouldn't argue that making heroes of suicide bombers is a good thing, but I don't think the views expressed by children playing a game really has any predictive value about what they'll believe later in life. If you watched me playing Cowboys & Indians and Americans & Nazis as a kid, it certainly would appear that my friends and I hated Indians but were indifferent to Nazis. I don't think that would even be an accurate representation of my views at the time, let alone now, but that's certainly how those games would have looked if video taped and sent to people who didn't necessarily understand that being in the fort is more fun than attacking the fort, or that throwing sand on someone is more fun than having sand thrown on you. |
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject: 29 |
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In a war, civilians are military targets. There is no nice way to say this, but your goal in a war is to make the other side stop fighting, either by eliminating their ability to fight, or by breaking their will to fight. Attacking primarily civilian targets can further both goals. It can also backfire and strengthen resolve (as happened on 9/11). But to say it's not a valid tactic is just fantasy.
The problem with the situation right now is that one side is treating it like a war, and the other side is treating it more like a simple criminal act. Unfortunately, when that happens, the side treating it like a war is dictating the terms, and once it has reached that point of escalation, about the only way to stop it is to fight it and win it as a war. Anything else just prolongs it.
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* These senseless ramblings brought to you by Insanity™. If you just can't figure the dang thing out, it must be Insanity™.
[YOUR AD HERE!] |
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:52 pm Post subject: 30 |
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What is the world coming to?!?
Death Mage has posted something that I find to be reasoned, intriguing, and very possibly makes me change my mind about something.
All that's left now is for the Cubbies to win the World Series, and the apocalypse will arrive. |
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Ctorj
Did I spell that right?
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:58 pm Post subject: 31 |
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My roommate threatened to punch me last night and it looks like I'll have to file a restraining order to move somewhere else. My lawyer agrees. This whole situation sucks.
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"Love is the absolute expression of the human perfection" -Me!
Created by MyFitnessPal.com |
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Dread Pirate Westley
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:38 pm Post subject: 32 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| All that's left now is for the Cubbies to win the World Series, and the apocalypse will arrive. |
Gods willing. And, for the record, there are days that my feelings over this not having happened would qualify for this thread. |
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:47 pm Post subject: 33 |
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As a die-hard Boston sports fan, I know your pain.
Well, I used to.
Bwahahahaha!
Last edited by Zag on Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AcidFast
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:58 am Post subject: 34 |
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Ah, 2004!
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When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead
True story |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:25 pm Post subject: 35 |
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| Samadhi wrote: |
| IMO if we pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan and closed all our bases around the world, they would still target us. Other than that, I agree. |
IMO they would not. But even if they did, I believe the damage they would be capable of would pale in comparison to the price we are now paying for our military adventurism.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:35 pm Post subject: 36 |
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| Zag wrote: |
Suicide bombers target non-military targets and the intent is merely to cause terror. It doesn't have any strategic value; it's just vindictive and evil.
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You're applying your own morality in differentiating kamikaze missions from suicide bombers who target civilians. That is not my morality. I regard them equally evil. I won't assess "vindictiveness" because I think it's irrelevant and hard to speculate on anyway.
Not saying you're wrong, of course. Just pointing out that not everyone will agree on the distinction you are making.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: 37 |
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If enough of my enemy (especially the leaders) are gathered together in one place then bomb it, is a principle followed by many on all sides.
It's all immoral IMO, but it's not only the Taliban that do it.
And what's a non-military target?
If you're going to restrict it to soldiers wearing a uniform while on active duty, then you have a very poor understanding of how "war" is fought these days.
MacDonalds and Walt Disney corrupting the youth are equally as destructive to some counties as a bomb or a bullet, and if you can be sure that such westernisation is supported by government. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:36 pm Post subject: 38 |
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| Jack_Ian wrote: |
If enough of my enemy (especially the leaders) are gathered together in one place then bomb it, is a principle followed by many on all sides.
It's all immoral IMO, but it's not only the Taliban that do it.
And what's a non-military target?
If you're going to restrict it to soldiers wearing a uniform while on active duty, then you have a very poor understanding of how "war" is fought these days.
MacDonalds and Walt Disney corrupting the youth are equally as destructive to some counties as a bomb or a bullet, and if you can be sure that such westernisation is supported by government. |
Well said.....and I really agree.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:55 pm Post subject: 39 |
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We'll be sure to get you two matching tin-foil hats for Christmas.
_________________
* These senseless ramblings brought to you by Insanity™. If you just can't figure the dang thing out, it must be Insanity™.
[YOUR AD HERE!] |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:19 pm Post subject: 40 |
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Here is what strong public sector unions did for California, and this is just the Bay Area.
70 pages or so of public employees making over $200,000.
_________________
All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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