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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:04 am Post subject: 41 |
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| Thok wrote: |
| I really just wanted more evidence for when I notify the Utah police to watch out for Chaz as a potential risk. |
Ah yes. The biggest mob of all. I was wondering which of you would make that point for me. 
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:08 am Post subject: 42 |
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| Thok wrote: |
| Chaz wrote: |
| What's to stop him after he does? |
What's to stop him from convincing a mob that certain people are a risk to kill others and need to be put down? |
I suppose a better argument would be a counter question... what's to stop him from doing so now?
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Thok
Oh, foe, the cursed teeth!
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:18 am Post subject: 43 |
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| Chaz wrote: |
| I suppose a better argument would be a counter question... what's to stop him from doing so now? |
Figure it out for yourself. The answer is obvious to most of us. |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:22 am Post subject: 44 |
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The question is, "how is your answer really any different from my answer?"
When you can answer that, then you'll understand why my view is truly enlightened, and yours is truly naive. 
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:38 am Post subject: 45 |
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| Mob rule is working well in Somalia. Ever think of moving? |
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AcidFast
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:49 am Post subject: 46 |
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Thank you, Jack_Ian for summing up my opinion on the gun control part of this discussion, and thank you, Zag for summing up my opinion on Chaz's point of view.
Seriously, Chaz - a bigger mob? It mystifies me how your solution to problems in society is to introduce more oppurtunity, incentive and means for people to do violence on one another.
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:31 pm Post subject: 47 |
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Somalia is an example of where an overly oppressive government has collapsed. That is where we're heading, and you're in a big hurry to get there; I'm not.
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:33 pm Post subject: 48 |
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| AcidFast wrote: |
| Seriously, Chaz - a bigger mob? It mystifies me how your solution to problems in society is to introduce more oppurtunity, incentive and means for people to do violence on one another. |
I find it... downright something... that you're solution to the bigger mob is to form an even bigger mob (and then force people to join your mob, or move to Somalia.)
How can you possibly justify that stance? How are you any better than the war lords in Somalia?
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: 49 |
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| Thok* wrote: |
So, I'm trying to figure out what would have happened differently in a more aware society. Would they have shot him before he revealed his intentions with their detect insane person with a gun sense? Would he have been shot during community college, or would his fellow community college students forcibly put him in an insane asylum? |
It may very well have happened the same way in a more aware society. Chaz is proposing some ideas that are perhaps radical, but his logic is that what we've got now is not only flawed, but headed for disaster. He's not saying that what he's recommending or considering will be perfect or solve ALL problems, but it can hardly be worse than the status quo. Why not at least be open to what he's saying rather than dismiss it or ridicule it just because you might be able to think of one problem it wouldn't solve. I get the sense that most people won't even try to understand his ideas before condemning them.
Forgive them, Chaz. For they know not what they do.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:25 pm Post subject: 50 |
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Fair enough Pablo. I really just wanted more evidence for when I notify the Massachusetts Anarchists to watch out for Thok as a potential risk.
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: 51 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
but it can hardly be worse than the status quo.
Forgive them, Chaz. For they know not what they do. |
For you to say it can hardly get worse means that you haven't a clue how much worse things could be. In a regime that was really oppressive, both you and Chaz would already have disappeared from your houses for speaking out against the government in this way. You would never be heard from again and your families would be left alone, fearful, and wondering. I am speaking literally, not figuratively.
Actually imagine the KGB or the gestapo kicking in your door in the middle of the night and dragging you off -- no words, no due process, no lawyers. You're just gone now. In oppressive regimes, people who speak out against the government have to fear this every time they go to sleep. When's the last time you had a real fear of this happening to you?
No, really. I can see you waving your hand at me dismissively. Stop a second and actually imagine it. It really happens. My brother's wife grew up in P.R. China. Her father disappeared in such a way, and they didn't know what happened to him for over a year. Six years later, he returned, having spent the time in a re-education camp. The scary and amazing thing is that he was actually re-educated.
I, for one, am very glad we live in a society where we can speak out against the government. I think a ton of things about our government stink, and I'd like to see a lot of it dismantled. But calling it oppressive and saying that it could hardly get any worse demonstrates a complete lack of comprehension of what truly oppressive government is like.
I do know what I do. |
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:53 pm Post subject: 52 |
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| Quote: |
| If possession of an unlicensed weapon put you in jail for an extended period and if handguns were restricted to security personnel, while on duty, gun crime would be reduced. |
Oh yes, that worked sooooo well in DC. Or Chicago, or [insert any city with draconian gun laws here].
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: 53 |
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A Democratic councilman is staging a "vigil" for the 6 people that died. Why the quotes? They just happen to be staging it in front of KMJ, the radio station that plays Glen Beck, et al. It's also about 15 miles from downtown. Asshats.
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: 54 |
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| Zag wrote: |
I, for one, am very glad we live in a society where we can speak out against the government. I think a ton of things about our government stink, and I'd like to see a lot of it dismantled. But calling it oppressive and saying that it could hardly get any worse demonstrates a complete lack of comprehension of what truly oppressive government is like. |
This morning on "Morning Joe", Mika Brzezinski was talking about whether people should be "allowed" to speak hate publicly and on the radio as I was coming to work, I heard the local morning show hosts talking about how it's a shame that we have to wait until the wacko actually does something terrible before we can "do something" about him. This kind of talk and mentality seems to be getting more prevalent and is gradually replacing our commitment to free speech and due process.
Zag, I actually do agree with your point that it can get much MUCH worse and I'm not waving you off in dismissal. But I fear that that is the reaction I'd get from you when expressing my fear that things COULD get that bad in the U.S. if we don't start asserting ourselves when it comes to protecting our liberties. The current path is pointed there....with a gradual erosion of liberties in favor of safety and security. That path leads to neither liberty nor safety.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: 55 |
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| Well, I'm willing to say that things could get that bad if we don't continue to assert ourselves. To imply that we aren't doing so now is to ignore the people who spoke out against, for example, the amendment to make burning a U.S. flag illegal. I'm pretty sure you know where I stand on free speech, and it is very close to where most people who call themselves Libertarians stand. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:12 pm Post subject: 56 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| Well, I'm willing to say that things could get that bad if we don't continue to assert ourselves. To imply that we aren't doing so now is to ignore the people who spoke out against, for example, the amendment to make burning a U.S. flag illegal. I'm pretty sure you know where I stand on free speech, and it is very close to where most people who call themselves Libertarians stand. |
I don't think you and I are really disagreeing in principle. I'm not ignoring those people you refer to....I'm saying that they are gradually becoming more of a minority.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject: 57 |
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We actually all agree. Oppression = Bad.
We just have very different views about what will lead to oppression. Yes Pablo and I can speak out today, but what about tomorrow? Next month? In ten years?
Freedom of speech is being limited more and more in the US. Freedom from unwarranted search and seizure has been trampled. The right to bear arms is a joke at best in most states.
I'm not anti-establishment Zag, I'm anti-docility. We've become docile with our tolerance of what government is allowed to do. People saying things like "I'd rather be safe at 30,000 feet" terrifies me. That's the sort of view pre-communist Russia and China probably would have held.
Safety is not more important than freedom. Without freedom, what point is there in being safe? I know it "feels" right to give up what you consider to be "unimportant" freedoms (like the right to have and keep an arsenal for example), but those freedoms are vital to the survival of liberty. If they can take some of our liberties, what's to stop them from taking the others?
Certainly not our arsenals.
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:57 pm Post subject: 58 |
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| Zag wrote: |
Actually imagine the KGB or the gestapo kicking in your door in the middle of the night and dragging you off -- no words, no due process, no lawyers. You're just gone now. In oppressive regimes, people who speak out against the government have to fear this every time they go to sleep. When's the last time you had a real fear of this happening to you?
No, really. I can see you waving your hand at me dismissively. Stop a second and actually imagine it. It really happens. My brother's wife grew up in P.R. China. Her father disappeared in such a way, and they didn't know what happened to him for over a year. Six years later, he returned, having spent the time in a re-education camp. The scary and amazing thing is that he was actually re-educated.
I, for one, am very glad we live in a society where we can speak out against the government. I think a ton of things about our government stink, and I'd like to see a lot of it dismantled. But calling it oppressive and saying that it could hardly get any worse demonstrates a complete lack of comprehension of what truly oppressive government is like. |
| Thok wrote: |
| Fair enough Zag. I really just wanted more evidence for when I notify the Utah police to watch out for Chaz as a potential risk. |
Can you really not see the link here?  Thok's mentality is where we're heading. Kick down the door of and arrest anyone who doesn't agree with government. Keep an eye on them.
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Thok*
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:15 pm Post subject: 59 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| but it can hardly be worse than the status quo |
Obviously, I strongly disagree with you. But then, I think the major problem with the status quo are people who mistakenly have a major problem with the status quo.
| Quote: |
| Can you really not see the link here? Thok's mentality is where we're heading. Kick down the door of and arrest anyone who doesn't agree with government. Keep an eye on them. |
Because obviously, there's no chance that I was joking.
Even if I wasn't joking, in a "defense aware society", my comment would be "Fair enough Zag. I really just wanted more evidence for when I arrange a mob to kill you because you are a potential risk." |
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Thok*
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:17 pm Post subject: 60 |
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Edit the last fake quote should really be "Fair enough Zag. I really just wanted more evidence for when I arrange a mob to kill Chaz because he is a potential risk." I don't think Zag is a risk. Yet  |
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Dread Pirate Westley
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:30 pm Post subject: 61 |
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Tangentially related: Because the f***tards in the Westboro Baptist Church are planning to protest at the 9 year old girl's funeral (possibly among others), the Arizona state legislature is going to make it a misdemeanor to protest at the site of a funeral (Apparently "God hates [her]" because she was Catholic). [Someone: Ack! Another freedom taken away!] Hush, Someone. Just the fact that someone needs to be told protesting at a funeral is not a good idea is far more depressing.
| Quote: |
| Without freedom, what point is there in being safe? |
Let's play the answer a question with a question game: If you're dead, what point is there in being free? Somewhere in the middle lies the answer.
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The sooner you accept one simple truth, the sooner we can all get along with our lives.
I'm right. |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:40 pm Post subject: 62 |
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If I ignore the fact that this particular tradegy (the Giffords shooting) happened in a governed society where we have government to prevent these things from happening...
... then... If I'm dead, why would I care?
As for the Westboro bastard church... I fully defend their right to say whatever they want. I would be adamantly against the government doing anything to stop them... of course, I'm equally against the government doing anything to defend them, so their atrocities could never happen in chazLand.
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:46 am Post subject: 63 |
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Chaz, you're like the little church lady who, upon seeing anything good, says "That's a gift from God" and seeing anything bad, says, "That is from the devil." When asked why she loves God and hates the devil, looks at the questioner as if he is insane and replies, "Don't you see all the good things that God brings us, and all the terrible things the devil causes?" She doesn't even see the circularity of the argument.
As soon as the people put together a little organization to protect themselves, you declare it to be the good and right result of Anarchy. As soon as the organization does something you don't like, you declare it to be government, and you knew all along it was evil. But without that organization, where are we? Well, we are at a state in which evil people run rampant unless some good people organize enough to stop them.
Your imagination that evil people wouldn't do evil things for fear of the good people shooting them is silly and circular. Of course, the good people who do a lot of shooting proactively are actually evil. (Isn't that what we label people who go around shooting other people with little or imagined justification?) But, you say, they wouldn't do that because the really good people would shoot them before they do it. And so on. Turtles all the way down. |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:27 am Post subject: 64 |
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It's the belief that the organization can do no wrong that is what I consider "government." When police kick down the doors of the people who they're meant to "protect" because that person was growing the wrong plant. When they wage wars at great expense in order to "spread freedom." When they murder innocent people because they want to "stop terror."
That's what I have a problem with, Zag. The government should be constantly checked and balanced, and not just "well, this isn't a big deal, so let's just give them this little bit in order that we'll be safe" over and over until there's no more left to give...
I'm fine with authority. I just think it should derive from the consent of the governed, and not from threat of force.
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AcidFast
Daedalian Member
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:50 am Post subject: 66 |
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| I totally agree. The article finishes with a quote from Westboro Church: "God sent the shooter! Praise God for ALL his works, and BE YE THANKFUL!." It sort of makes me wish God would send them the same gift. |
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:50 am Post subject: 67 |
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I'm so torn here.
It really almost feels like government made a good call. Were it not impossible for that to happen, I would really be worried that I might be agreeing with Zag for a second time.
Though, I'd still rather see angry citizens beat some sense into them.
Oh. Except about the God part. Zag just takes on the role of old lady, but sees anything religious as Satan, and anything scientific as God... from my observations of course.
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:43 am Post subject: 68 |
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| Because the f***tards in the Westboro Baptist Church are planning to protest at the 9 year old girl's funeral |
I feel barely restrained fury at hearing that. I have faith though that there will be plenty of people who will bar, by just standing in the way, these asshats from that. If I didn't have to work I'd volunteer for THAT vigil. Give the poor family some peace.
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Samadhi
+1
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:51 am Post subject: 69 |
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I agree with the intent 100% but I don't think it's Constitutional. You have to prove speech is harmful before you stop it or sue for damages. If someone goes in the church that's clearly disorderly conduct. But on a public street. As vile as it is, you have to allow it unless you can prove it's meant to do specific harm to someone.
And I'm sure Chaz will be with me on this. The obvious response is a wall of voluteers to cordon off the protesters. If they try to break through they are attacking us and breaking the law. Meanwhile we're just peaceably being in their way.
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AcidFast
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: 70 |
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Whoa - they changed the link! That is not the story the link originally went to.....
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When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead
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AcidFast
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:24 am Post subject: 71 |
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Originally, that story only concerned the 'angel wings' and the plans by which the community was going to deal with the Westboro Baptist Church. When I posted the link, it had nothing to do with the legislation.
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When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead
True story |
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AcidFast
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:33 am Post subject: 72 |
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Yes, so let me clarify - the legislation I have mixed feelings about - the community developing a non-violent, non-confrontational means of dealing with the Church IS AWESOME
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:11 pm Post subject: 73 |
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Now that I could get behind... well... I'd likely get at the front of that.
Like I said... I'd rather see a community in a free society where we allowed to beat some sense into these ass hats. Government is protecting them, and we're paying for that protection; it's disgusting... especially when you consider that they don't contribute anything to the society that they're mooching off of.
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:18 pm Post subject: 74 |
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| AcidFast wrote: |
| Yes, so let me clarify - the legislation I have mixed feelings about - the community developing a non-violent, non-confrontational means of dealing with the Church IS AWESOME |
I totally agree with this sentiment. I am a little uncomfortable with legislating any limitation on speech, though the way they did it was pretty good. "No protests near a funeral" is not limiting the message that anyone can deliver, it is just enforcing that people show respect for a family that has suffered a loss. I'm not convinced that this is un-Constitutional, but I'll agree that it is walking the line. |
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:36 pm Post subject: 75 |
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Nothing unconstitutional about it. Constitution grants you freedom of speech, not guarantees an audience, or venue. They're still allowed to say whatever they hell they like, they just can't disrupt other people's mourning for it. That would, after all, be harassment.
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:46 pm Post subject: 76 |
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No. The Constitution definitely prevents government from passing laws exactly like this--imagine if they passed a law saying you can't protest within a thousand feet of a political rally, or a place of employment...
For the record, I'm adamantly against any law being enforced (by government) for any reason... but... as is... I'm down with this particular law, since the alternative (a good ass kicking) has been precluded from our possible solutions.
I still think Sam's suggestion (The Great Wall of Christina) is better in this situation, but I would place money that a lot of "good" people would be arrested, and a lot of "bad" people would join the wall just to cause problems. I'm certain the police would find a way to defeat such a great banding of citizens too.
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Zag
Tired of his old title
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:47 pm Post subject: 77 |
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| Well, there is certainly a point at which limiting the venue becomes limiting speech. If the law were to say, "You can say anything you want, but speaking out against the government is only allowed inside your own house." then it would clearly be un-Constitutional. So there is a line; but I don't see that this law crosses it. |
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:50 pm Post subject: 78 |
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Chaz: They already DO limit "protests" near rallies, polling places, even businesses etc. It's usually "across the street", sometimes further, but you haven't been able to go absolutely ANYWHERE you wanted to make a scene for a damned long time now.
Look, I understand the whole point of protecting speech is protecting speech that other people don't want to hear, and this stuff clearly qualifies for it. But they AREN'T being silenced. Their message can still get out. But just as you don't have the right to stand on someone's doorstep and yell at them through the door any time you want, they shouldn't have to right to disrupt people's funerals with this.
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Chaz
Vote: Zag
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:52 pm Post subject: 79 |
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I think the law clearly crosses it. I also think that other laws passed summoned this law out of necessity. We gave a little back then, and they're taking a little bit more now.
Later we'll need legislation passed which restricts oppressive companies from building shoe-factories in the middle of graveyards.
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject: 80 |
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No no no, we let the poltergeists handle that.
_________________
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