The Grey Labyrinth is a collection of puzzles, riddles, mind games, paradoxes and other intellectually challenging diversions. Related topics: puzzle games, logic puzzles, lateral thinking puzzles, philosophy, mind benders, brain teasers, word problems, conundrums, 3d puzzles, spatial reasoning, intelligence tests, mathematical diversions, paradoxes, physics problems, reasoning, math, science.

   
The Grey Labyrinth Forum Index
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups    RegisterRegister  
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Watson "wins" at Jeopardy
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Reply to topic    The Grey Labyrinth Forum Index -> Off-Topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_



PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:43 am    Post subject: 41 Reply with quote

I just watched it and found it rather interesting. There are a few amusing moments.
I was under the impression that the entire text was fed to Watson instead of word-by-word. Do the contestants get to see a text version or do they just get to listen?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Samadhi
+1



PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:52 am    Post subject: 42 Reply with quote

MatthewV wrote:
I just watched it and found it rather interesting. There are a few amusing moments.
I was under the impression that the entire text was fed to Watson instead of word-by-word. Do the contestants get to see a text version or do they just get to listen?
If I recall they basically have Trebek read the question and at the nanosecond he's done they give Watson the oh wait answer. On the show Watson does not have voice recognition. That would be pretty fucking slick though.
I think these guys performed fairly well.
_________________
And he lived happily ever after. Except for the dieing at the end and the heartbreak in between.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
LordKinbote
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:55 pm    Post subject: 43 Reply with quote

MatthewV wrote:
I just watched it and found it rather interesting. There are a few amusing moments.
I was under the impression that the entire text was fed to Watson instead of word-by-word. Do the contestants get to see a text version or do they just get to listen?


I'm not sure what you mean. The text version that the human contestants see is on the board, like usual.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
extro...*
Guest



PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: 44 Reply with quote

Samadhi wrote:
MatthewV wrote:
I just watched it and found it rather interesting. There are a few amusing moments.
I was under the impression that the entire text was fed to Watson instead of word-by-word. Do the contestants get to see a text version or do they just get to listen?
If I recall they basically have Trebek read the question and at the nanosecond he's done they give Watson the oh wait answer.


Whether fed the text word by word as Trebek spoke each word, or all at once at the moment he completed speaking it, they could have given Watson a big advantage by giving Watson a camera and some commonplace OCR software to read the written text, instead of directly feeding it electronic text. This would have done two things:
1) Eliminate the basis of complaints that Watson had an advantage by being fed the text in a special format, rather than having to read it or hear it as the human players do.
2) Give Watson a huge advantage in that he'd have the entire text available at the moment it was displayed, before the humans could read or hear the first two words.

That's kinda why I don't understand the complaints about an unfair advantage.
Back to top
Zag
Tired of his old title



PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:09 pm    Post subject: 45 Reply with quote

He was sent the entire text as soon as it was shown. Note that no decent player listens for Alex Trebek to read it, he reads it on his own. Many people (including Ken Jennings, I know, and probably the other guy, as well) read a whole sentence at a time, and have read the entire clue within an instant of it being shown.

The painful prevalence of the younger generation to write "your" for "you're" and "would of" for "would have" (and similar mistakes) is evidence that they don't have this talent, and they are silently "reading aloud" in their heads.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
wordcross

<memstat>



PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:33 pm    Post subject: 46 Reply with quote

So, extro, in light of that information, still think the "commonplace OCR software" would give him an advantage? The players all have to wait until the buzzer is available anyway.
_________________
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
jesternl
Yankee Doodle Dutchie



PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:39 pm    Post subject: 47 Reply with quote

I'm guessing the episodes will also be on Hulu.com,. legality not as much in question as Torrents Revenge most foul!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
extro...*
Guest



PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:19 pm    Post subject: 48 Reply with quote

wordcross wrote:
So, extro, in light of that information, still think the "commonplace OCR software" would give him an advantage? The players all have to wait until the buzzer is available anyway.


I don't think it would have put him at a disadvantage.
Back to top
MatthewV
Daedalian Member :_



PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:28 pm    Post subject: 49 Reply with quote

I know I read aloud in my head. Very slowly. And because I respond much better to listening, I usually listen to the question. I also am very poor at Jeopardy!

Because of the way the show is produced, it is hard for me to know if the text version is just for TV viewers and contestants. I guess as long as contestants can see the entire question instantly it is fair enough to feed the computer text.

It would have been more elegant if they had taken the video-to-text approach. It wouldn't have been difficult and would have quelled the notion of an unfair advantage.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:33 am    Post subject: 50 Reply with quote

Hmmm. I was impressed, but in the same way that Deep Blue impressed me - fun but not really relevant because it wasn't doing what it appeared to be doing.

Sure there were some clear advances in context and pattern recognition, but I would hope there had been in the years and years that people have been working at this. And even then it was clearly not able to deal with some very simple things (that Final question being a great example.)

Still it was an entertaining piece of television, and I guess that's all you could really ask for.
_________________
still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
extro...*
Guest



PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:20 pm    Post subject: 51 Reply with quote

Scurra wrote:
... it wasn't doing what it appeared to be doing.


I'm not sure humans are either.
Back to top
Chaz
Vote: Zag



PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:36 am    Post subject: 52 Reply with quote

Scurra wrote:
Hmmm. I was impressed, but in the same way that Deep Blue impressed me - fun but not really relevant because it wasn't doing what it appeared to be doing.

Sure there were some clear advances in context and pattern recognition, but I would hope there had been in the years and years that people have been working at this. And even then it was clearly not able to deal with some very simple things (that Final question being a great example.)

Still it was an entertaining piece of television, and I guess that's all you could really ask for.

As long as the illusion is maintained at high levels of accuracy, what does it matter?
_________________
The enemy's base is down.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Scurra
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:30 am    Post subject: 53 Reply with quote

extro...* wrote:
Scurra wrote:
... it wasn't doing what it appeared to be doing.
I'm not sure humans are either.
Touché. After all, to follow up Chaz, the illusion of free-will is what keeps up going*. Revenge most foul!

What humans seem to excel at is pattern recognition - to draw conclusions from a whole bunch of disparate sources. This enables us to have aesthestic appreciation (music, art etc.) and also a tendency towards conspiracy theories.

What computers seem to excel at is pattern matching - to find data within a vast pool that is the same as what they are looking for. Whilst I will concede that a lot of this depends upon the rules they are using to search with, I'm not sure that systems can step outside these rules or invent their own.

In a quiz show context, these can look very similar since they both rely on producing a specific answer. Maybe the illusion is that the human contestants are doing what the computer did, rather than the other way around?

*Obviously I don't believe that - the free will comment, I mean.
_________________
still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
*casinopete*
Guest



PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:23 pm    Post subject: 54 Reply with quote

I realize I'm several days late, but this:
Zag wrote:
Go, like chess, is inevitable.
just ain't so.

Zag wrote:
Go is several orders of magnitude more difficult, but throw enough computing power at it and it can be solved just as Checkers already has been.
That you refer to a Go solution tree as being merely "several" orders of magnitude larger is probably the core of your error. Checkers has a few hundred billion possible positions. The number of positions in Go gets estimated at around 2x10^170. The number of possible game scales similarly, but is much more difficult to pin down.

With estimates on the number of the atoms in the universe being around 10^80, and the age of the universe being less than 5 x 10^18 seconds, it may be literally impossible that the entire production of everything that exists, working for the entire length of time that has ever been, can produce the solution tree you claim is inevitable.
Back to top
Zag
Tired of his old title



PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:12 pm    Post subject: 55 Reply with quote

Meh. OK. The theoretical number of arrangements is 3^(19^2), which is, in fact, 1.74e+172. So you're right that you would have to do a ton of pruning, which means that you'll never have it "completely solved." However, the game lends itself well to such an approach, and the likelihood of missing relevant combinations is minuscule.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Nsof
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:14 pm    Post subject: 56 Reply with quote

i wonder how much time until my desktop can do the same as Watson?
unrelated:

_________________
Will sell this place for beer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ctrlaltdel
Member of the Daedalians



PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:22 pm    Post subject: 57 Reply with quote

i play chess a lot, use a comp to analyze a lot, know how the chess progs have grown in their ability. they are better than humans. no contest.

but i am more impressed with this watson comp than with rybka or firebird beating a grand master. chess is not complicated, it is very simple - but its too complex. ehrm, that didnt make sense, did it? rules of chess are much simpler than rules of natural language. theres no contexts, hidden meanings, multiple meanings, irony (whereby it is understood from the tone of the sentence that we actually mean the complete opposite!), puns, etc...

i understand watson didnt have to deal with ALL of those, but a chess move is a chess move. Nf3. it is very simple for a computer to understand what just happened. the rest is just tweeking the algorithms to perform best, since bruteforcing is not yet within the computational horizon of machines. (it might be one day, who knows.)

btw, would you say that winning thru algorithms is more "valuable" than winning thru nalimov tablebases? either way, the comp doesnt "know" it just computes 1s and 0s.

so i am very impressed with how well watson understood the questions. its akin to making a chess program that would know a move when i input "Nf3" and also when i say "you know, i made the second move of the italian opening" or "i put my knight two squares ahead of the funny looking piece with a pointed hat".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Thok
Oh, foe, the cursed teeth!



PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:24 pm    Post subject: 58 Reply with quote

Zag wrote:
However, the game lends itself well to such an approach, and the likelihood of missing relevant combinations is minuscule.


I was under the impression that Go doesn't lend itself well to a pruning approach at all, and that most of the time roughly half of the open spaces on the board are viable plays.

Basically, in a given chess position, there's something like 30 legal moves, of which only 10 or so are viable (and often there's only 1 or 2 viable moves). In Go, there are typically around a hundred legal moves, fifty or so are viable, and forcing moves are rare before endgame.

Edit: Also, it's much harder to evaluate the quality of a given Go position. Chess has the K= infinity, Queen = 9, R = 5, B,Kn = 3, P = 1 metric which is already fairly good, and it's not that hard to add in other positional tweaks to evaluate a position.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
ctrlaltdel
Member of the Daedalians



PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:14 pm    Post subject: 59 Reply with quote

i think in Go, as oppose to chess theres a much bigger margin of moves that are "ok" especially in the beginning of the game. moves that dont necesserily win or lose or significantly add to either extreme - they are "playable". in chess (and especially in the opening) the moves are almost forced if you dont want to give the opponent a significant advantage.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Nsof
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:35 pm    Post subject: 60 Reply with quote

Just Months After Jeopardy!, Watson Wows Doctors With Medical Knowledge
Not there yet but i can certainly see doctors routinely using these kind of support systems within 20 years or so.
_________________
Will sell this place for beer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Death Mage
Raving Lunatic



PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:44 pm    Post subject: 61 Reply with quote

"Don't wanna sound like a dick or nothing, but it says on your chart that you're fucked up. You talk like a fag, and your shit's all retarded."
_________________
* These senseless ramblings brought to you by Insanity™. If you just can't figure the dang thing out, it must be Insanity™.
[YOUR AD HERE!]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LordKinbote
Daedalian Member



PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:53 pm    Post subject: 62 Reply with quote

Nsof wrote:
Just Months After Jeopardy!, Watson Wows Doctors With Medical Knowledge
Not there yet but i can certainly see doctors routinely using these kind of support systems within 20 years or so.


My father is a doctor at one of the only community hospitals in partnership with IBM to look into the possibilities of Watson as a medical diagnostic. They invited him and a few other doctors to IBM HQ to talk...I'm not sure how much has actually been done there yet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous: by   
Reply to topic    The Grey Labyrinth Forum Index -> Off-Topic All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Site Design by Wx3