Heroes Mafia:Game Over

[Undercover Monk]

Wow and you guys are considering my actions as idiotic. All his votes are being changed by Amb it is possible he knows this and keeps voting to prove his innocence. there are several possibilities. As LIML has pointed out the voteing changes began after my FOS and Zags vote (I dont know why he seems to be escaping suspicion for that). so something changed.

There is absolutlely no way Amb would include day actions for mafia. I just dont believe it. So it is not an ACTIVE ability. (you hear that momland stop twisting my words) There are mafia abilities that affect the next day but I have never seen a mafia that can act during the day time. I agree with rubberduck on this one you dont let the mafia affect the game mid-day. So we are left with a PASSIVE ability. (that is an added advantage or disadvantage usually give to help balance the game)

Has anyone ever seen a game where a player pms the mod his choice during the day phase because I havent. Perhaps a mafia player can target a player with their vote and cause self votes or perhaps sentran knows his votes will do that and is using the confusion to save himself.

I am suspicious of LIML but I think that OMGUS thinking and try not to let that cloud my judgement. so yeah sticking with Sentran for information sake or MNOWAX for policy lynch sake.

BTW I love how my words have been twisted by nearly everyone in this thread.
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Silverfire]

It seems obvious to me that UM is almost certainly the one with the post-altering ability. Not only did he make that suspicious bolded FOS just before the madness happened, he's also refused to consider the idea that this is a player ability. As others have said, this ability is much more likely to be a mafia ability than a town one. And if UM were town, I think he probably would have admitted to being the post-changer.

I think my vote is still on him, but just in case, Vote: Undercover Monk

By the way, Amb, I love this twist and the way things are going.

[Undercover Monk]

NO NO NO

THIS IS NOT AND I REPEAT NOT AN ACTIVE MAFIA ABILITY. it could be a passive mafia ability. I never said it wasnt mafia doing.

I would bet $100 on that fact. While mafia is an ever changing, evolving game created by flawed humans there are two iron clad rules.

The informed mafia must be a minority
and their actions must be relegated to the night to give the town a chance

I know Amb runs deep south which i havent played before. (I believe it mixes the phases so they are happening at the same time) but this is regular mafia. If this is deep south I probably wouldnt have signed up. And would be really pissed at Amb. You dont let the mafia actively influence the game during the day It doesnt happen.

SO NO PMS WERE SENT TO AMB. I will look back to see what happened between Sentrans last vote and the first votecount messup
_________________
The Classic Blunders:
1. never get involved in a land war in Asia
2.Never go in against a Sicilian when DEATH is on the line
3. Never release Peyton Manning

[Lifeinmomland]

You guys, I am speculating. Like others, but I asked myself who benefits on us being distracted by this line in weirdness because as I said before I think the who is currently unsolvable.
Rubberduck I meant exactly what I said. You had not weighed in. As in you had not input for quite a while. I did not include you in my list of people who are very quiet, but I did want to see what you had to say about the circumstances. Thus the weigh-in comment, so my feeling on the matter is there were other bandwagons before this whole Sentran thing… including one getting steam on Rubberduck ,MNO., and Zag.

UM can say I am twisting his words if he wants to but really, he is not the mod of this game, and therefore his comments are not fact, just like everyone else. Just because it has not been done before I would remind you that all your comments concerning balance are based on what you know has happened before. No one ever handpicked roles for players before either but I understand that happened not long ago. No one has ever had a game with nothing but Jesters before… but then it did happen! You speculation is all based on things that have or haven’t happened before and your idea of balance, but suppose AMB did something else to balance this? Maybe the person has a separate win condition that should be considered a better win like Snik had in the Ender game?
Geez I have gone off on a rant. My point is we need to look past this whole issue with Sentran. If you ask me … it is time to move past it and decide what we are gonna do.


Our goal was to get conversation to hopefully see a slip. That has happened ina rather weird way, but it has happened. So what have we learned?
_________________
Who is John Gult?

[Undercover Monk]

[Silverfire]

[Quailman]

I've been in games where someone could PM a day action to the mod, though not in a long time. I don't see how UM could be so positive that it's not part of the dynamic in this game.

[RubberDuck]

The gaps in my posting occur largely over night, I notice there is a massive flux in posting here between my 12:00am and 8:00am, presumably from most of you being in the states and me being in Nz. Not because I am going quiet. But I see what you are saying LIML.

[Lifeinmomland]

You wanna go antagonistic on me? Fine. Vote me and lynch me, that will be what you want after all since I think you are the scum. I pushed the discussion because I saw something odd happening. Then I worked to see what we could learn from that, but damn. It is time to man up and make a call. You disagree? You think there is more to learn here? Oh... wait you don't cause you KNOW EVERYTHING for a fact. You accuse me of twisting your words, but what am I twisting exactly? What words of your did I even twist? Can you answer that with anything more than the vague "game balance" argument you used already? Here is what I see. Someone who uses logic has been diligently blinded to something that is obvious. But you won't support your argument with anything more that "it wouldn't happen cause I have never seen it" well guess what. Someone else has seen it so get off your high horse. Look I know the point of this game is to look for guilt where you can... well I see it. It's called UM. If I am wrong Lynch ME tomorrow!
_________________
Who is John Gult?

[Lucresia]

LIML, you're sounding a bit contradictory here. You are arguing with UM because of his "certainty" on a subject. But then, you are saying you are so certain that you are saying we can even lynch you tomorrow if you are wrong. Unless you are mafia, you don't know his role on day 1 with no night 0, so how can you be so confident that you'd risk the town losing you tomorrow? Do you consider townies expendable? Or is this just a bunch of WIFOM between you and UM?
_________________
"And All anybody knows, is you're not like them" -Elliott Smith

[Zag]

Not really Lucresia. Mom is accusing UM of being an arrogant SOB about his knowledge of the rules of this game, based on his view of what should be possible and what would be balanced. However, his comments are ridiculous, because I could certainly design a balanced game in which a mafia had such a role. There would probably be only two mafia in 12 players if a scum has such a powerful role, but it could easily be balanced. (Or three if all the townies had power roles.)

Mom, on the other hand, is talking about UM's alignment, which is an appropriate thing to be 'sure' of. I'm not nearly as sure as she is, but I'm definitely leaning towards UM being guilty.

However, I promised to do an experiment, so this is my part of it.

Note that I don't think anything one way or the other about Silverfire, I'm just doing an experiment to see if Sentran making an OMGUS vote against me had anything to do with his votes getting changed. I deeply doubt it, now, but I volunteered so I might as well go through with it.

vote: Silverfire

Just for consistency, SF, you should copy the phrasing Sentran used in post 49 (which was originally a vote for me).

[Lifeinmomland]

What I am confident of is UM is acting out of character, and I believe that he is mafia. He is "certain" that he knows about the rules that mod has set? He is saying something CAN'T be but Quail even said he has seen it, and if there isn't a rule against it why not? He has no explanation for this except his view of what game balance is, but it isn't outside my imagination how to incorporate this ability and balance it. Is it beyond yours? This is a player who always says he bases his arguments on logic.

You are right I can't have investigated him or any other of those nifty abilities, but you look back at what I said. What part of the things I have said is twisting his words? No, I believe no town is expendable, but last game UM played that whole "I caught mafia D1 some many times trust me" and it turn out to be a ploy for us town to trust him. If I am wrong about him being mafia I will look guilty, that is what is behind my comment you can lynch me cause it will look like I am mafia. I will understand that vote even if it is wrong. Hell I am even willing to say I will claim my character name if I am wrong about UM now.

_________________
Who is John Gult?

[Lifeinmomland]

And as for me saying it is time to move on, I do believe that. We have proved the Sentran situation, we have established there is SOMEONE messing with votes, but we don't have enough info to know who yet. If someone else sees and aspect of that we have not explored I am more than glad to continue, it is just my opinion that we have gotten what can from it as of now. UM woulds have you believe that means I am backing down from what I believe when in truth I am just trying to see what else can be addressed to continue conversation, without further speculations we can't prove until someone dies. Do any of you disagree that this horse is dead?
_________________
Who is John Gult?

[Lucresia]

Well, I think UM is being unrealistic by not being open minded about the mod or his choice in roles. I think it's possible it could be an active or a passive ability.

I do agree we should move past it at this point also though, because until tomorrow comes we really won't be able to get any more information on this self voting issue.

Maybe UM is trying too hard to convince us that a role can't happen when he really should be scum hunting. One thing you said LIML did stick out to me, UM isn't playing that normal. I see him doing what he complained MNOWAX did last game in which UM was trying to convince us seemed scummy..the getting defensive quickly and irritated that we just don't "believe" him or take his almighty word for how things are.

I am going to look over UMs posts again and see if it is enough to change my vote. I still find you suspicious LIML based on the way you quickly took lead on the discussion which I felt was to keep heat on the people around Sentran to give us new targets... possibly you are framing them or one of them...but I am seeing your points on UM right now and will have to take a look and decide between one of you for the lynch.
_________________
"And All anybody knows, is you're not like them" -Elliott Smith

[Amb]

Vote count
3. MNOWAX (Cloudrunner, Jedo, Ctorj)
2. Undercover Monk (Silverfire, Lifeinmomland)
2. Rubberduck (Quailman, MNOWAX)
2. Silverfire (Sniklac16, Zag)
2. LifeInMomLand (Lucresia, Undercover Monk)
1. Sentran (Sentran)

Not voting: Chaz, Rubberduck

[RubberDuck]

I've only just noticed that Sniklac 16 has only posted twice the entire game, a random vote on page 1 and a bandwagon hop onto silverfire on page 2. To be honest, I had completely forgotten he was even playing until I saw the vote count just now.

Vote: Sniklac 16

[Zag]

[Jedo the Jedi]

Why are all of the unreasonable people driving the day? Ugh!

Amb is one of the best and most creative mafia mods I have ever known. He can do whatever the hell he wants. Plus, he has chosen the most convoluted TV show of all time to be his theme. The self-vote thing could freaking be a GAME mechanic rather than anything player controlled. Monk, stop whining and acting like you know everything. Everybody else, get outside of your little boxes of preconceived notions.

The next person who makes any remark about Monk being suspicious because he bolded his FOS is getting my vote. I don't know who thought that was something worth jumping on, but that's the way it is typically done. Quit smoking crack and be logical.

I continue to like my vote where it is. With all of this speculation and stuff, I am getting no scum reads because it's just a bunch of bickering over who is more likely to be correct. You're jumping at shadows and it isn't helping produce scum slips. I will gladly move to lynching lurkers if we want to target Snik. Mostly, I think we need a lynch to get some concrete information.
_________________
Paragon Tally: 18 mafia, 3 SKs (1 twice), 1 cultist, numerous chat scum...and counting.

[Silverfire]

[Silverfire]

The above is a full copy of Sentran's post, just to be sure. My vote on UM is not solely or even primarily because he bolded his FOS on Sentran, it's because of the way he seemed to panic after that fact was brought up, even before heavy suspicion fell upon him.

There are really only a handful of possibilities we need to consider. It could be 1) a deliberate power of another player, 2) an inadvertent ability of another player, 3) a deliberate ability of Sentran's, 4) a hidden aspect of Sentran's role, or 5) something not controlled or tied to any one player.

3) is highly unlikely. Multiple people, including me, have observed that Sentran's posts were changed after the fact, and I find it hard to believe that his posts 57 and 60 were insincere. As for 4), if this is the case, it means Sentran or someone else did something to trigger this part of his role, between posts 43 and 49. This seems unlikely, but it is possible. 5) is similar to 4) in that Sentran would have had to do something to trigger the self-voting between posts 43 and 49. The only post Sentran made in that interval was post 45, so I'm going to quote it in it's entirety.

[Silverfire]

[Silverfire]

And a vote, to see what happens: Vote: Undercover Monk

[Quailman]

I was going to actually quote sentran's original post and tell you that you should use quote tags, but in preview mode, I see that you gave Sentran credit for the original..However, you say that you are voting for UM, when in fact you changed your vote in the previous post. You didn't quote Sentran - you repeated what he said using your his words, so you changed your vote to Zag.

{after preview} And I see that you've added two more posts while I was typing this. Now you are voting UM, even though in the prior post you sound like you agree that RubberDuck wanted D1 to end too quickly. That's okay - I think UM is probably scum also.

[Lucresia]

I think Jedo's right. This bickering is not really finding any scum tells. The most I have gotten out of the back and forth bickering is that UM is getting defensive. Plus my theory of LIML framing the people around Sentran, although with no proof it's just a bogus shot in the dark.Then again all last game it was like a defensive bitch fest between MNO and UM so maybe the defensiveness really isn't a tell.

I do find Jedo's comment suspicious though that he is still happy with his vote, considering it is an RVS bandwagon vote and we haven't gotten anything else from him to base suspicions off of. Then again if you are saying your RVS has turned into a more serious vote due to the lurking, I could see that. I am putting a big FOS on any of the lurkers right now and these are the people I see lurking: FOS: Sniklac16, ctorj, and MNOWAX

But you know who I find scummiest of all the lurkers?

Unvote; Vote Sniklac16

Last game I saw he was in as mafia I saw him do the same thing. So far he has made 2 posts and lurk and then just complain about people being lurkers when that's all he has done. I'm pretty confident, although it has been awhile that when he plays as mafia, that's usually the way he behaves the whole game. He lurks, then picks on other lurkers.

I am also okay with a lynch on any of the lurkers at this point because 2 posts in a game that's almost been going for a week, yeah seems like lurking scum to me. All three lurkers only have two posts. But I think Snik is the best choice of the three.
_________________
"And All anybody knows, is you're not like them" -Elliott Smith

[cloudRunner]

[cloudRunner]

Also, where the hell is Chaz?
_________________
Forever is such an unpleasant word

[Quailman]

There doesn't seem to be enough interest in lynching RubberDuckScum, so I'll change my vote to lurkersniklac, whom I also think is scum.

unvote: RubberDuck; vote: Sniklac16

BTW, when I said earlier that I had been in at least one game where a person could PM day actions to the mod, IIRC the mod said never again, since he had to sleep at his computer and constantly check for PM's. It's been a long long time, though, so I've no idea who the mod was, or even if it was on the GL.

[Lucresia]

Well from what I heard, he was supposed to be back by yesterday so perhaps he was catching up. I would give him until the end of the day and at that point, I would suggest we need a replacement.
_________________
"And All anybody knows, is you're not like them" -Elliott Smith

[Sentran]

Lynching the lurkers makes more sense on day one than completely random voting. I'd be more in support of a Sniklac or Ctorj lynch than MNO. Of course, I still feel that UM and Duck are more suspect than the lurkers at this point, but it's day one and all of our guesses are just blind conjecture.
Unvote
Vote: Sentran
Confirm Vote: Sentran
FOS: Undercover Monk, RubberDuck
_________________
Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Zag]

[cloudRunner]

[Sniklac16]

I stated before the game even began that I would not have much time to post because I have a lot going on IRL with losing my job and trying to find another. However I'm here now and have a pretty decent idea on whats going on. Its my belief that there might be a politician in this game. Not ever watching heroes before i'm not sure of how well that would play in. But i don't believe there's a hacker simply because if someone had changed sentrans posts we would know due to the editing mark. However if there was a politician that person could buy sentrans vote for the day. I'm going to re-read later tonight to see if i can come up with more but this is all i really have time for now
_________________
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

[Sentran]

I've never heard of the Politician before. If there was one, I'd expect it to be Nathan Petrelli, Angela Petrelli, or possibly Linderman. Is the target of a Politician's power aware of it? If so, we don't have a Politician, because I have no idea where this is coming from.
_________________
Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Quailman]

Mafiawiki does not list a politician among its roles. Nor could I find a role that can reassign a person's vote.

[Ctorj]

Can I get a vote count?

Also, Sniklac16: I am sorry to hear about your job situation,. As a fellow unemployed person, I sympathize. However, being unemployed means you have more time to post, not less. I know this from experience. Also. it makes little sense, if any, to have a politician in a Heroes themed game. Each character would have, I would assume, their own powers.

Ever so slight FOS: Sniklac16
_________________
"Love is the absolute expression of the human perfection" -Me!

Created by MyFitnessPal.com

[Sentran]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Politician
_________________
Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Sentran]

I'm not sure how that role could be used to affect the current game.
_________________
Sentran
"Speaking of double negatives, I haven't read greylab yet today." - Lifeinmomland

[Quailman]

[Zag]

[Lucresia]

I fully expect with how Amb said about the uniqueness of everyone's roles, that we might not find the exact type of role on Mafiascum or anything like that, Amb could simply just make it up. Either way, we already know there's a role and it affects sentran's vote today, whether passive or active and there's really no new information in Sniklac's post or any suspicions or scum hunting going on just a speculation as to the title of the type of role. I also am sorry to hear of your situation, but hope we can get a more substantial post from you later after you are able to re-read the thread.
_________________
"And All anybody knows, is you're not like them" -Elliott Smith