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extropalopakettle
No offense, but....
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 Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:54 pm Post subject: 1 |
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It starts with the notion, supported by genetic analysis, that present day Palestinians are descendants of Jews, with the idea being that if Israelis and Palestinians could accept their common heritage, a one state solution could work ... though I grossly oversimplify.
There's a web site, in Arabic, English and Hebrew, devoted to this solution: http://the-engagement.org/?page_id=16
From an article, "A tragic misunderstanding" (A small group of Jews and Arabs are using an old theory and new genetic research to redefine - and, hopefully, one day to end - the Israeli-Palestinian conflict)
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... when Jewish fighters waged a series of unsuccessful campaigns against the occupying Roman forces in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, the Romans exacted a heavy price: they destroyed the temple in Jerusalem and exiled the vast majority of Jews.
Those who ended up in the Diaspora - mostly city dwellers - were determined to keep their Jewish identities during exile. But according to Misinai, many were allowed to stay behind to work the fertile uplands of Judea and Samaria - now known as the West Bank - to supply Rome with grain and olive oil.
Gradually, these people lost their ethnic identities, converting first to Christianity under Byzantine rule and then to Islam, as power in the land changed hands and rulers sought to homogenise the population, either through force or the offer of social privilege and tax incentives.
“We, the Jewish people, have kept our Israeli or Jewish identity by the book, by our religion, but we disengaged from the country,” said Elon Yarden, a lawyer and close associate of Misinai, who has also written on the subject. Those who stayed behind, in what became Palestine, “did not leave the country, but lost their identity”. |
Thoughts? |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:15 pm Post subject: 2 |
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Right. So let's say a UFO lands. In it are 70 million people who don't speak English. It turns out they're true-blooded Americans that were exiled to a faraway planet. How well, do you think it, an attempt to disseminate them in the current United States, go?
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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lexprod
NOT not a title
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:28 pm Post subject: 3 |
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I dunno, I stopped watching "The Event" a few months ago. Sorry for /offtopic 
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wordcross
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:52 pm Post subject: 4 |
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I think appealing to a common heritage is possibly a good tool to help relationships between the two groups, but if you start telling Palestinians that they're "descended from Jews", they're going to rebel against the notion and twist it around and call it an attempt to discredit their Palestinian heritage. Such an effort would have to be *very* diplomatic about how it describes itself.
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Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? |
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:11 pm Post subject: 5 |
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| Antrax wrote: |
| Right. So let's say a UFO lands. In it are 70 million people who don't speak English. |
Teach them English.
From: http://the-engagement.org/?page_id=73
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| The Engagement process will provide Palestinians who select to participate, with preparatory education for their reintegration in the people of Israel, without resorting to religious coercion. The education will include learning the Hebrew language, Hebrew culture, history of the Land of Israel and of the people of Israel, knowledge of the Bible and of Jewish tradition. The preparation will neutralize the incitement that the Palestinians have received against their Jewish brothers and will allow them to enjoy equal rights and status as citizens in the expanded State of Israel. |
| wordcross wrote: |
| I think appealing to a common heritage is possibly a good tool to help relationships between the two groups, but if you start telling Palestinians that they're "descended from Jews", they're going to rebel against the notion and twist it around and call it an attempt to discredit their Palestinian heritage. Such an effort would have to be *very* diplomatic about how it describes itself. |
If it's the truth, it should be told, no? Sure, diplomatically, is best. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:40 pm Post subject: 6 |
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Who's going to pay for teaching 70 million people English, and giving them elementary school education?
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:17 pm Post subject: 7 |
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| Antrax wrote: |
| Who's going to pay for teaching 70 million people English, and giving them elementary school education? |
So what's the less expensive plan? |
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Quailman
His Postmajesty
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| Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:32 pm Post subject: 8 |
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| Build a wall. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:06 am Post subject: 9 |
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Not sure what the "other" plan is, or whether it exists. Quite seriously, the solutions I can believe in revolve around outlandish things, like Israel and the Palestinians suddenly having a common enemy (US led by a mad dictator? Aliens?), benevolent coercion (Obama 2 deciding to use force? Aliens a-la "The Day The Earth Stood Still"?) or an escalation in the violence that leaves both sides temporarily abhorring it (similar to after WW2). Not sure any of these is likely.
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:12 pm Post subject: 10 |
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Wow! This reminds me of the Ecumenical council, where the Pope tries to get everyone to come together as one, by coming to a mutual agreement to become Roman Catholics.
There are groups within the region with much stronger ethnic ties that have been at each other's throats for generations. The idea that the conflict can be solved, by one side giving up their ethnic heritage and adopting another's because of some tenuous shared ancient link is preposterous.
What will the sales pitch be?
"You kept the land and we kept the faith. Together let us build a nation where we take your land from you as payment for teaching you to be Jewish again."
What! No Takers? |
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Nsof
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:50 pm Post subject: 11 |
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Generally I think the solution of one state for two people is bad. The 2000 year old stale “common ancestor” justification/support for it is not going to change my or most people’s thoughts on this. It would require a much shorter time span than that to make this kind of argument relevant.
Imagine Alice sitting in the house she and her ancestors have lived in since they can remember. Suddenly Bob comes in saying he is moving back in.
Scenario 1: Bob and Alice are brothers.
Scenario 2: Bob and Alice are 73rd cousins 16th removed.
Originally i thought it was nice that someone is for once trying to use historical context for positive/constructive solution. However, after reading through some of the material on the site it is clear this is very much a one sided solution.
I think these guys live in lala land. The site should be called "The
dis
engagement
with reality
"
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Will sell this place for beer |
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:44 pm Post subject: 12 |
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| Jack_Ian wrote: |
The idea that the conflict can be solved, by one side giving up their ethnic heritage and adopting another's because of some tenuous shared ancient link is preposterous.
What will the sales pitch be?
"You kept the land and we kept the faith. Together let us build a nation where we take your land from you as payment for teaching you to be Jewish again."
What! No Takers? |
They're not proposing anyone giving up their ethnic heritage or converting to Judaism. If the truth is that Palestinians are descendants of Jews who became Christians who became Muslims, is that problematic? There doesn't seem to be any "Palestinian" ethnic heritage. Nobody identified themselves as Palestinian until recent history. Right now a wall is the only immediate solution. Granting Gaza nationhood as "Palestine" will change nothing. |
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Lepton*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:54 am Post subject: 13 |
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Telling the Palestinians that they don't have a cultural heritage certainly isn't a good first step.
| Nsof wrote: |
| Scenario 1: Bob and Alice are brothers. |
Sounds more like Bangkok than Jerusalem. |
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:05 pm Post subject: 14 |
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| extro...* wrote: |
| They're not proposing anyone giving up their ethnic heritage or converting to Judaism. If the truth is that Palestinians are descendants of Jews who became Christians who became Muslims, is that problematic? |
So what you're trying to say is that so-called "Palestinians", have more right to the land of Israel than the current Jewish immigrants and once Jewish people recognise that, then everything will be OK. 
Culture evolves.
So the Palestinians evolved more spiritually than culturally while the Jews evolved more culturally than spiritually. But it's all a matter of degree.
I know the conflict has historical roots, but you can't seriously believe that heritage cannot exist after 1000 years of shared history, just because there is evidence of a different faith beforehand. There are many varied Jewish cultures that bear very little resemblance to this shared ancestry. Should they be equally denied their diversity? It's likely in fact that the Palestinians have closer cultural ties to the original Jews than the current ones. After all a thousand years living somewhere else, especially in cities, will change things.
Christ was a Jew. He did not create a new religion. He just reformed Judaism. Early Christians still obeyed Jewish rites and rituals. They kept the Sabbath (Saturday) and also celebrated the Lord's Day (Sunday, the day of resurrection). As time went on, other rites and festivals were celebrated and some were dropped as they were becoming less relevant.
Muslims claim to be returning to the earlier original faith, before it was corrupted by evolution, back to the time of Adam and Noah. It could be argued that Judaism then, is neither evolved nor original and that the sooner they stop sitting on the fence and choose Islam or Protestantism, they better it will be for all.
Of course, it's ridiculous to suggest such a thing. But it's equally ridiculous to suggest that a thousand years living in the Holy Lands counts for nothing if you evolved your religion in a way that differs from the folks that left.
People who leave their homeland cling to their cultural identity in a way that is not replicated at home. Especially if the reason for leaving was forced. Many Irish Americans still cherish their Irish roots after generations of living in America. The Ireland they dream of no longer exists.
The Holy Land that the Jews cherished during their exile also no longer exists, and truth be told, after a thousand years romanticism, it probably never did. The exile caused a cultural time-bubble, preventing evolution as the exiles clung to the only evidence of their homeland, namely their faith, much like Palestinians still cling to their keys. The only evidence that they ever owned a house, before they too were exiled.
You don't need to go back a thousand years to find your shared brotherhood. |
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Termital
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:40 pm Post subject: 15 |
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I don't get why this is SAC rather than OT, but anyways...
As usual, I'm with Jack_Ian on the big things. What these people are proposing is the Borg solution. Sure, you may live. We just need to wipe your laws, norms, structures, attitudes, language, culture, relations and history off the map. Because, you see, any joint community must be exactly like ours; it's so much better apparently. No, really, no need to thank us.
And, as usual for this sort of thing, the "historical truth" isn't. Sure, if you go by genetic markers, one Semitic people looks a lot like another. So? Are the States on the verge of collapse because of genetic variance, or did several different genocidal wars in various African spots not happen? But, and here's where Jack & I part ways, I can't really think of a time when the two nations really went along. Doesn't the Bible go something like this: we dropped in from Egypt, kicked some heathen Philistine butt, then it was off to Persia and back, rinse, repeat. And post Bible, Jews dispersed all about, then got dumped back in post-WWII. As you might have noticed, things haven't gone swimmingly since either. So, when exactly had this period of brotherhood, which they so long to return to, occurred?
All of which is not to say I dislike the idea of a unified state; I've argued it's the second easiest solution in the past. I just consider that, if this sort thing is to fly, the common state needs to:
a)be an amalgam, not a whitewash.
b)drop its nation ambitions; being one state ought to be enough. With luck and time, some common identity may emerge.
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Better ways to push & pull!
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johnhodges
Icarian Member
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:55 am Post subject: 16 |
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| That already happened when most Palestinians were killed or bred out of existence by the invading Arabs in the 600s AD. It is more like a resurgence of the American Indians where the ones that fled or were forced to leave returned to reclaim their land from the invaders. |
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BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:10 pm Post subject: 17 |
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It seems ridiculous that such a rational program of education would somehow improve such a long-standing conflict whose true roots aren't only mysterious (we can't counter what we don't know), but most likely non-rational.
_________________
"I am declaring it a terrible tragedy for me to die. You may disagree..." --Antrax |
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BraveHat
Last of the Daedalians
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| Posted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:27 pm Post subject: 18 |
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Seems to me there's only one situation where the conflict ends. One side surrenders to the terms of the other. It is useless for any outside force to intervene unless they take a side.
_________________
"I am declaring it a terrible tragedy for me to die. You may disagree..." --Antrax |
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