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Perpentach
Daedalian Member
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 Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:21 pm Post subject: 1 |
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If you've haven't heard the recent news, the Israeli government has negotiated for Gilad Shalit's release in exchange for the release of around 1000 prisoners in Israeli including around 300 convicted terrorists.
So I'm asking your opinion. Do you think that the Israeli government should have made this deal? |
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JDTAY
obseletes now
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:12 am Post subject: 2 |
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Antrax says no in 5, 4, 3...
(I plan on agreeing with him, BTW.)
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:53 am Post subject: 3 |
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| What if they secretly infected all the prisoners with AIDS first? |
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Perpentach*
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:28 am Post subject: 4 |
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| Then they would be awful people. They could just deliver dead bodies. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:41 am Post subject: 5 |
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I thought it included 1027\1027 convicted terrorists, but possibly we're not reading the same newspapers.
This is one of those arguments where I think both sides are stupid. The Hammas doesn't lack terrorists nor motivation to kill Israelies. OTOH it's hard to argue with the strictly game-theoretic irrationality of having this as a policy. Since I support the death penalty anyway, not just for terrorists, I can narrowly escape being stupid.
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extro...*
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:26 am Post subject: 6 |
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| It just shows the relative value each side places on their people. |
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:04 pm Post subject: 7 |
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Are they really releasing 1000 kidnapped/convicted people as ransom for a single kidnapped/convicted soldier? It sounds like a pretty bad precedent, to me. If I were part of Hamas, I'd already be planning how to grab another soldier to get another 1000 of my people freed.
On the other hand, I suspect that the people released were jailed for less serious offenses, and the government was just looking for a face-saving reason to release them, anyway, rather than feeding and housing them. What do you think of that theory? |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:23 pm Post subject: 8 |
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To answer your question, yes, exactly 1027 Palestenian prisoners were released this morning. Most of them are terrorists\ noble freedom fighters, either murderers \ righteous slayers or accomplices to such.
The points you're raising are valid but as you can imagine, have been hotly debated non-stop here for the past week or so.
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:27 pm Post subject: 9 |
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| extro...* wrote: |
| It just shows the relative value each side places on their people. |
Or more-so, the value they place on their enemy's lives. Besides, it's just a prison transfer from a small high security building, to a low security compound called Gaza.
The good thing about the transfer is that it stimulates good faith and presents opportunities for constructive dialogue. The bad thing is that it will be short-lived and wasted. |
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raekuul
Lives under a bridge & tells stories.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:35 pm Post subject: 10 |
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Political gain, strategic shot-in-the-foot. As has been said before, this is setting a bad precedent - but what other choice did they have from a political perspective? They wanted their soldier returned alive as opposed to in two boxes, and they did have X number of prisoners that they were (I'm assuming) feeding and housing and whatnot. Israel is a small nation, they can't hold hostages forever and can't really afford for other nations to hold their people hostage.
Still, though, that's X number of people that are closer to killing citizens and denizens of Israel. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:40 pm Post subject: 11 |
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For purely humanitarian reasons, as opposed to political ones, I am happy to see all 1001 of them reunited with whomever they are being reunited with.
That's just a gut reaction of one person.....me. It's not rational, it's purely emotional.
The "rational" side of me has no clue as to the political (or other) ramifications of this. I have no idea how dangerous any of these people really are or how much of a threat they might be. I also don't know what diplomatic benefits, if any, might be realized by this move.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:45 pm Post subject: 12 |
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1028, Pablo. And if anyone's interested, you can easily Google to see who they were and what they were convicted of (well, 1027 of them, one of them was never on trial).
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raekuul
Lives under a bridge & tells stories.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: 13 |
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| Knee-jerk reaction: The one that was never given a trial should have not been kept at all |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:08 pm Post subject: 14 |
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I'm sure the Hamas would welcome your opinion.
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:20 pm Post subject: 15 |
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| Jack_Ian wrote: |
| The good thing about the transfer is that it stimulates good faith and presents opportunities for constructive dialogue. |
Does it? Israel releases 1027 criminals, many murderers and terrorists, in exchange for one soldier kidnapped from within Israel.
Has Israel made any representations that any of the released are not still subject to being targeted for justice? |
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Perpentach
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:10 am Post subject: 16 |
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| News update: Gilad Shalit was released, alive. Over 400 of the prisoners were released as well. Both sides are treating this as a victory, and the Hamas has said that they plan on kidnapping more soldiers and civilians in order to negotiate for the release of more prisoners in Israeli jails. |
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raekuul
Lives under a bridge & tells stories.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:59 am Post subject: 17 |
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| Antrax wrote: |
| I'm sure the Hamas would welcome your opinion. |
About that one that was not put on trial, I would agree that he should not have been kept at all.
As for the remainder... they were at least given a trial, so depending on what they were convicted of, they can stay longer.
The only thing I can think of is that the one israeli in question has sensitive information. |
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:10 am Post subject: 18 |
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| Was Gilad Shalit given a trial by the people who were holding him? |
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:19 am Post subject: 19 |
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| Zag wrote: |
| Was Gilad Shalit given a trial by the people who were holding him? |
He was abducted from inside Israel. Trial for what, to determine he was in fact an Israeli? I don't believe any other "crime" was ever alleged. |
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:29 am Post subject: 20 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
For purely humanitarian reasons, as opposed to political ones, I am happy to see all 1001 of them reunited with whomever they are being reunited with.
That's just a gut reaction of one person.....me. It's not rational, it's purely emotional. |
Is your purely emotional gut reaction that every murderer somewhere in prison should be freed and reunited with whoever, for humanitarian reasons? |
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:34 am Post subject: 21 |
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| extro...* wrote: |
| I don't believe any other "crime" was ever alleged. |
That was what I was trying to establish. |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:02 am Post subject: 22 |
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| extro...* wrote: |
| Pablo wrote: |
For purely humanitarian reasons, as opposed to political ones, I am happy to see all 1001 of them reunited with whomever they are being reunited with.
That's just a gut reaction of one person.....me. It's not rational, it's purely emotional. |
Is your purely emotional gut reaction that every murderer somewhere in prison should be freed and reunited with whoever, for humanitarian reasons? |
I don't see that that would be a "reaction". Does one have a reaction to a status quo? If you're asking me if there's something in me that would like to see every murderer in prison be freed, I would say no.
By the way, how did we establish the "murderer" label?
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:48 am Post subject: 23 |
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I am guessing that the expected emotional, knee-jerk response is not "Why is Israel keeping 1027 prisoners of war who are not Geneva Convention signatories alive in the first place?"
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:06 am Post subject: 24 |
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raekuul, The "extra" one (1001th in Pablo's post, 1028th in my accurate one, not sure why Perpentach keeps citing 400) was always Gilad Shalit. I thought it'd be obvious from the context.
DM, they're not prisoners of war, you can't be at a war with something that's not a country, similar to how people here criticise the "war on terror" and the "war on drugs". More to the point, they're not prisoners of war because they weren't caught as part of a war, but rather went through the standard legal Israeli process and were convicted.
Generally, I'm afraid there's less post-modernism available than what is usually the standard here. I can grant you that the question of extradition might be a tricky one (though in "Mission Impossible" it was always enough to just pull the felon kicking and screaming across the border, then you got to try him and everything was kosher), but other than that, these people were tried by an Israeli court of law and convicted in crimes committed on Israeli territory (can't even put settlements in this discussion). Unless you're going to claim cultural bias (the murdered Israelies might've been shahids in their belief system, maybe. Probably not), I really don't see where you're going with this, Pablo.
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Courk
Daedalian Member
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:41 am Post subject: 25 |
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| Death Mage wrote: |
| I am guessing that the expected emotional, knee-jerk response is not "Why is Israel keeping 1027 prisoners of war who are not Geneva Convention signatories alive in the first place?" |
I am not well-informed on the actual matter at hand to have an opinion, and arguments about what constitutes a war and thus prisoners of war aside, part of what signing the Geneva Convention means is that not only are your citizens and soldiers supposed to be treated according to the Convention, but that you also treat prisoners you take according to it, regardless of whether those prisoners' countries signed it. |
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:49 am Post subject: 26 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| By the way, how did we establish the "murderer" label? |
For those who murdered, it was determined by a fair trial.
BTW, Israel has every moral right to take these prisoners back, and to renege on the promise to release more prisoners. It's ransom for a kidnapped hostage, no different than if it were cash, half paid and half promised. Paying ransom for a hostage has nothing to do with "good faith". Unfortunately, if Israel did renege ... if they recovered some of the ransom, and refused to pay the rest ... I have little doubt that they'd be portrayed as dishonest by the media. I don't believe that would happen in any other kidnap for ransom situation, but the fact that that's exactly what this situation is will be overlooked by the media. |
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:58 am Post subject: 27 |
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| Courk wrote: |
| Death Mage wrote: |
| I am guessing that the expected emotional, knee-jerk response is not "Why is Israel keeping 1027 prisoners of war who are not Geneva Convention signatories alive in the first place?" |
I am not well-informed on the actual matter at hand to have an opinion, and arguments about what constitutes a war and thus prisoners of war aside, part of what signing the Geneva Convention means is that not only are your citizens and soldiers supposed to be treated according to the Convention, but that you also treat prisoners you take according to it, regardless of whether those prisoners' countries signed it. |
I don't think they were prisoners of war. They are criminals who broke the law, and were tried, convicted, sentenced. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:03 am Post subject: 28 |
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Courk, all 1027 prisoners received treatment beyond the requirements in the Geneva convention. Gilad Shalit wasn't allowed to meet with the red cross (or anyone, for that matter) throughout his captivity.
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After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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Pablo
Never Draws a Blank
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:31 am Post subject: 29 |
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| extro...* wrote: |
| Pablo wrote: |
| By the way, how did we establish the "murderer" label? |
For those who murdered, it was determined by a fair trial.
. |
Perhaps....but I'm suspicious of just about any "fair trials" when it comes to that part of the world...and one country trying a citizen of another.
Ditto this part of the world.
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All religions are the same - Guilt....just with different holidays. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:43 am Post subject: 30 |
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Congrats Pablo, you still manage to surprise me. Let me guess, this is one of your cases where no potential evidence could dislodge the (fairly insulting) opinion about Israel's judiciary system?
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:15 pm Post subject: 31 |
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| extro...* wrote: |
| Jack_Ian wrote: |
| The good thing about the transfer is that it stimulates good faith and presents opportunities for constructive dialogue. |
Does it? Israel releases 1027 criminals, many murderers and terrorists, in exchange for one soldier kidnapped from within Israel.
Has Israel made any representations that any of the released are not still subject to being targeted for justice? |
Organising such a transfer alone, involves negotiation and forges some degree of mutual trust and respect. Those same channels can be used more productively while they are active. |
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:25 pm Post subject: 32 |
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| Jack_Ian wrote: |
| Organising such a transfer alone, involves negotiation and forges some degree of mutual trust and respect. |
Would that be the case for organizing any payment of ransom for a kidnapped hostage, or is this case somehow special? If someone kidnapped one of your family members, do you feel negotiating the payment of the ransom would bring about trust and respect in you? How is this any different. |
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: 33 |
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| Antrax wrote: |
| Congrats Pablo, you still manage to surprise me. Let me guess, this is one of your cases where no potential evidence could dislodge the (fairly insulting) opinion about Israel's judiciary system? |
Pablo rightly worries about a country, any country, presiding over the justice of people they are in conflict with. It is natural for justice to falter under such strain. That's true for any country. What would be surprising is if Israel did not succumb.
This U.N. report, however, seems to support Pablo's presumption. |
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:34 pm Post subject: 34 |
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| Pablo wrote: |
| extro...* wrote: |
| Pablo wrote: |
| By the way, how did we establish the "murderer" label? |
For those who murdered, it was determined by a fair trial.
. |
Perhaps....but I'm suspicious of just about any "fair trials" when it comes to that part of the world...and one country trying a citizen of another. |
Some of the freed prisoners, their sentences, and what they were convicted of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange#Prominent_prisoners_to_be_released_as_part_of_the_deal
Hamas could take a lesson from you, Pablo. I don't think even they or anyone has yet suggested these people are not actually guilty as charged (except in that there's no guilt in killing Jews in their ideology). |
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:38 pm Post subject: 35 |
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| extro...* wrote: |
| Jack_Ian wrote: |
| Organising such a transfer alone, involves negotiation and forges some degree of mutual trust and respect. |
Would that be the case for organizing any payment of ransom for a kidnapped hostage, or is this case somehow special? If someone kidnapped one of your family members, do you feel negotiating the payment of the ransom would bring about trust and respect in you? How is this any different. |
I'll answer the "How is this any different?", after which the comparison should no longer apply to the argument.
For a kidnapping, the actual kidnapping is the most important issue. In this case, it is just a side issue where there are bigger fish to fry. If my daughter was kidnapped and my family were sitting on a time-bomb, I would use the communication, and payment of ransom, to also initiate solving the more pressing problem of getting the bomb disarmed. |
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extro...*
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:06 pm Post subject: 36 |
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| Jack_Ian wrote: |
| extro...* wrote: |
| Jack_Ian wrote: |
| Organising such a transfer alone, involves negotiation and forges some degree of mutual trust and respect. |
Would that be the case for organizing any payment of ransom for a kidnapped hostage, or is this case somehow special? If someone kidnapped one of your family members, do you feel negotiating the payment of the ransom would bring about trust and respect in you? How is this any different. |
I'll answer the "How is this any different?", after which the comparison should no longer apply to the argument.
For a kidnapping, the actual kidnapping is the most important issue. In this case, it is just a side issue where there are bigger fish to fry. If my daughter was kidnapped and my family were sitting on a time-bomb, I would use the communication, and payment of ransom, to also initiate solving the more pressing problem of getting the bomb disarmed. |
I don't follow that at all. Was the release of the 1,027 not entirely for the purpose of getting hostage Gilad Shalit back alive? The "bigger fish to fry" ... what is this? You think Israel has something to gain by attempting to establish trust and respect with Hamas? |
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Jack_Ian
Big Endian
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: 37 |
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| extro...* wrote: |
| I don't follow that at all. Was the release of the 1,027 not entirely for the purpose of getting hostage Gilad Shalit back alive? The "bigger fish to fry" ... what is this? You think Israel has something to gain by attempting to establish trust and respect with Hamas? |
There's always something else going on. Even when they say they are not talking, they are, just not officially. This is just one piece in a much larger puzzle.
Encouraging kidnapping will not ensure the safety of Israeli soldiers. In fact it will do the opposite. This is a PR exercise. |
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Antrax
ESL Student
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject: 38 |
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Jack_Ian, is there any evidence I can provide that will convince you that the Israeli justice system is fair even towards Palestinians?
_________________
After years of disappointment with get rich quick schemes, I know I'm gonna get rich with this scheme. And quick! |
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Death Mage
Raving Lunatic
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:01 pm Post subject: 39 |
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| extro...* wrote: |
| I don't think they were prisoners of war. They are criminals who broke the law, and were tried, convicted, sentenced. |
You go ahead and keep thinking that. They will continue to consider themselves at war. One side's got the dedication enough to keep fighting until they win. I wonder which one that is.
_________________
* These senseless ramblings brought to you by Insanity™. If you just can't figure the dang thing out, it must be Insanity™.
[YOUR AD HERE!] |
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Zag
Unintentionally offensive old coot
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: 40 |
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| Death Mage wrote: |
One side's got the dedication enough to keep fighting until they win commit genocide. Thank goodness they haven't the means for it. |
I fixed that for you, since that's the only definition of "win" that they will accept, it's just a restatement. |
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