High Society. Game over!

[MatthewV]

Pass.

[lexprod]

pass
_________________
I'll have a P please...

[Scurra]

pass

(what an enjoyably informative page this one is)
_________________
_{still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon}

[Zag]

pass. (It's so amusing that the 2 goes cheaper than the 1.)

[dethwing]

[referee]

I bid 2.
_________________
Jan 21st, 2008: The pillaging continues.
Mar 4th, 2008: Rest in Peace, Gary Gygax. May your dice always roll a natural 20 wherever you are.

Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

[Scurra]

<yes, this is one of those pseudo-Kingmaker scenarios that MattV mentioned. I think that Ref's bid means that MattV will almost certainly win now, but of course weird things could yet happen.>
_________________
_{still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon}

[MatthewV]

Why did the 2 go for just 1???

Bid 8.

[MatthewV]

I suppose that Referee could have bid 8, forcing me to bid 15. Or 20 forcing me to take the fire.

But if I had taken the fire, I would still have 6.5 points to his 5 points. So he would still have to win another few points. So the action would bring him closer to winning but put him in a very hard position to gain anything more.

[Scurra]

I don't dispute that. As it happens, things have come out well for you. Lex is screwed whatever you do, and there are only a couple of circumstances under which you lose, both of which require the 9 and the 10 to come out before the game ends (relatively unlikely.)

But at least if Ref had bid 8 you'd have had to make some sort of decision...
_________________
_{still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon}

[lexprod]

Pass, I'm on FI-YAH
_________________
I'll have a P please...

[dethwing]

[MatthewV]

If the 9 or 10 comes up, you could let Zag have it so he wins instead of me.
But that would be a fairly obvious king-making.

[Zag]

I assume you're saying that to Scurra. Since he can win as long as they both come up before the doubler, I doubt he'd do it.

[referee]

I just can't hit both people that are ahead of me in one play, so I chose one, and had to hope the game wasn't over. I'm playing for myself here, but there's some disagreement in what people considers kingmaking.

SITUATION: Let three players A, B, C playing a game, with A's turn in a critical juncture, A has two options. Option 1 will make the game end with C as a winner, B next, and A last. Option 2 will make B a winner, A take second, and C get the bottom spot. At that point C is the leader of the game.

Q1: Is A king-making if he plays Option 1?
Q2: Is A king-making if he plays Option 2?
_________________
Jan 21st, 2008: The pillaging continues.
Mar 4th, 2008: Rest in Peace, Gary Gygax. May your dice always roll a natural 20 wherever you are.

Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

[MatthewV]

Meh, both options are OK with me. Unless there was a third choice that didn't end the game and left the possibility of A winning.

So what I like with this game is that any action really won't be a king maker just because we don't know when the game will end. I won't talk about situations in this game until it is over!

[lexprod]

Bid 2
_________________
I'll have a P please...

[Scurra]

Pass (I bet that was a surprise to everyone...not.)

Ref's examples are both clearly kingmaking since the action of A determines the winner. But I don't think that in this game that previous choice was between "both people" who were ahead, because there was either only one (MattV, since Lex has almost certainly lost on the "least money" rule) or - in a theoretical, albeit reasonably probable, universe - three (since both Zag and I have the resources to buy a 9 or a 10 should it come up.) So I still maintain that by not forcing MattV up or out that was a pseudo-kingmaking decision.
(Then again, I think that Lex should have bid 25 whatever happened earlier...)
_________________
_{still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon}

[referee]

Which comes to my point that there's no definite idea of kingmaking. Under my point of view option 1 is kingmaking, but option 2 is legit.
_________________
Jan 21st, 2008: The pillaging continues.
Mar 4th, 2008: Rest in Peace, Gary Gygax. May your dice always roll a natural 20 wherever you are.

Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

[Zag]

bid 4

[MatthewV]

Why did you pass Scurra???!!! If you won the 3, there would be a good chance that you would win the game. If the 10 comes up, you would be tied in points and winning in a tie breaker.

Oh and lexprod got into the situation because Scurra didn't outbid him on the doubler. I think he was just trying to push the bid up without wanting to win it.

The way I look at this game is that every bid or pass could be king-making. So really no action is clearly king-making.

[referee]

I pass
_________________
Jan 21st, 2008: The pillaging continues.
Mar 4th, 2008: Rest in Peace, Gary Gygax. May your dice always roll a natural 20 wherever you are.

Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

[MatthewV]

Pass.

[Scurra]

[referee]

[MatthewV]

See in both those situations, the king-maker is making a decision knowing the game will also end. Unless the final Double is the only card remaining, we won't know when the game will end. And there is no action any player can make that will either prolong or shorten this game.
So there are foolish bids, things that didn't work out as hoped. and actions that may benefit other players more than others. There is also luck in this game.

[dethwing]

I personally think you're all too worried about the prospect of king making. Lighten up and have fun. It's a game!

[MatthewV]

We are having fun! Or maybe just I am...

[dethwing]

All right, could be I'm misinterpreting the conversations tone.

[Scurra]

I don't think anyone is that stressed about it. It's just that the forum lends itself to perhaps more detailed analysis than a normal face-to-face game would, and thus tends to invite it.

So, for instance, I am happy to argue with Ref that both of his options are kingmaking (since one player is determining which of the other players will win; their own situation being improved or otherwise is - to me - not relevant) but I do think that this game has pseudo-Kingmaking (since players can only make decisions based on probable outcomes, which is almost always a bad idea, but they can make decisions that will affect the outcome of the game even if not as certainly.)

Or maybe it's just that I'm still irritated about how I messed up that game of For Sale! and the metagamer in me doesn't want MattV to win again...
_________________
_{still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon}

[referee]

I agree on no tension, Scurra has one view of kingmaking, and I have another, and we're just commenting on an hypothetical situation that doesn't apply to this game, but I think it's interesting.

Also agree that PBF is different to presencial.
_________________
Jan 21st, 2008: The pillaging continues.
Mar 4th, 2008: Rest in Peace, Gary Gygax. May your dice always roll a natural 20 wherever you are.

Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

[lexprod]

pass
_________________
I'll have a P please...

[dethwing]

[MatthewV]

But I am curious to see how this goes...

[Zag]

21

[referee]

I pass
_________________
Jan 21st, 2008: The pillaging continues.
Mar 4th, 2008: Rest in Peace, Gary Gygax. May your dice always roll a natural 20 wherever you are.

Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

[MatthewV]

Pass

[lexprod]

25
_________________
I'll have a P please...

[Scurra]

12 + 15 = 27
_________________
_{still Quiz Olympiad champion. Must get a life.
New definitions: COFFEE - someone who is coughed upon}

[Zag]

pass. I'll leave it up to fate whether Scurra or MattV wins. Well played, both of you.